New defender axle and suspension

300bhp/ton said:

Probably not. But it depends on what exactly you are using it for.

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plus 1 and of course the driver knowing how to drive off road,

have also watched some videos where traction control is fitted to landies of many taking the foot off the accelerator as soon as the wheels spin,

just double checked and see the ND has a ground clearance of 9.5” which is quite impressive

gstuart said:

These looked very similar to the tyres that were fitted on many of my older landies , were so noisy and terrible in the rain and snow, soon got them changed , thinking about it I wonder if they were Avon’s

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Those are Michellin XCL's and where one of the best off road tyres you could buy and probably better than most non remould MT's these days. A shame they stopped selling them and that nobody copied them. They are still made in larger sizes for military vehicles.

lynall said:

I would hazard a guess the two different cars on the same tyres would show the newer model wins hand down.

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Would depend on a lot of things, but probably no is the answer.

gstuart said:

good point and don’t know if it makes a lot of difference but in my D3 i have a cross articulation setting in the terrain response system where its supposed to act like a live beam where as one wheel goes up it will push the other wheel down

think the ND will have the terrian response 2 system and I think around 11.5” ground clearance

have heard the new FFRR has an auto terrain response system for off roading where it uses cameras to automatically adjust the settings for the driver

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The cross linked air is more about roll rate than truly pushing the opposite wheel down. It is there to try and get the weight to shift laterally. I know lots of places claim it is like a live axle, but that isn't really the correct way of describing it.

Auto terrain response is available on the new Defender. But this doesn't really enhance its abilities tbh. It just means you may not need to fiddle with the TRS as much.

300bhp/ton said:

Those are Michellin XCL's and where one of the best off road tyres you could buy and probably better than most non remould MT's these days. A shame they stopped selling them and that nobody copied them. They are still made in larger sizes for military vehicles.

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many thks , did see these similar tyres

gstuart said:

plus 1 and of course the driver knowing how to drive off road,

have also watched some videos where traction control is fitted to landies of many taking the foot off the accelerator as soon as the wheels spin,

just double checked and see the ND has a ground clearance of 9.5” which is quite impressive

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Driver makes a big difference, but then that isn't a comparison of vehicles....

The TCS in the new Defender (well D3 onwards) is superb with very high resolution and very little wheel slip needed to activate. The TCS in a Puma Defender is not as good and the one on a Td5 Defender requires more revs and wheel slip. However all of the systems work well enough to generally keep all 4 wheels turning.

The new Defender has an optional rear locker, although in reality as the TCS is so good, this is only there to save on break wear as much as anything. In rock crawling it should provide more control too. But not to a massive extent.

As for ground clearance, you can't just go by the published numbers. The old Defender has superb clearance. But of course official figures will only measure to the bottom of the diff. And ignore how much more clearance there is to the chassis and other components.

While it is possible to get hung up on a diff. For general off roading this isn't normally an issue. So the old Defender probably wins overall in ground clearance.

An old Defender has a much better break over angle compared to the new model.

300bhp/ton said:

The cross linked air is more about roll rate than truly pushing the opposite wheel down. It is there to try and get the weight to shift laterally. I know lots of places claim it is like a live axle, but that isn't really the correct way of describing it.

Auto terrain response is available on the new Defender. But this doesn't really enhance its abilities tbh. It just means you may not need to fiddle with the TRS as much.

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bless u as always for the great explanation, is only available in the rock crawl setting on mine

300bhp/ton said:

Yet the old Defender has been offered with traction control since 1998.... so hardly a new thing ffs

Not too mention upgrading the diff centre on a traditional Defender is easy and fairly cheap.

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Yeah, traction control has been available from 98, but not on the older ones as I stated. And upgrading centre diff is not a standard vehicle. A scenario I saw with the a 300tdi defender, whilst laning in the peaks, driver of said vehicle pulled 2 wheels onto the grass verge to allow another car to pass on a road section between lanes,
Said defender had to be towed off the verge as drive went to the wheels on the grass, and although fitted with mud tyres, couldn’t gain enough traction to move.
Whereas any car with traction control would of just drove off effortlessly, let alone a new defender.

johnlad said:

Yeah, traction control has been available from 98, but not on the older ones as I stated. And upgrading centre diff is not a standard vehicle. A scenario I saw with the a 300tdi defender, whilst laning in the peaks, driver of said vehicle pulled 2 wheels onto the grass verge to allow another car to pass on a road section between lanes,
Said defender had to be towed off the verge as drive went to the wheels on the grass, and although fitted with mud tyres, couldn’t gain enough traction to move.
Whereas any car with traction control would of just drove off effortlessly, let alone a new defender.

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1998 is old

Defender came out in 1990 and ended production in 2016. 18 years with TCS vs 8 without. Even if you include the Ninety/One Ten that only brings it up 14 years without TCS. So the majority of 90's & 110's have TCS more than likely.

No idea what you are talking about with regards to the centre diff. No need to upgrade at all. Are you getting confused with how it works and what it does??

As for pulling over and having both wheels on one side on the grass. I'd suggest more likely they didn't have it in difflock. Hugely unlikely that it couldn't have driven off, unless the wheels where in a ditch and it was sat on the radius arms, axle & chassis.

In lab conditions on rollers or ice maybe it would be possible or if on a super steep climb. But real life it would be hugely unlikely to not have ability to drive off. You could also opt to go backwards as well as forwards and turn the wheels left to right. So I either don't believe you or there is more going on with that story.

K14 said:

The discussion is about Land Rover defenders

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Not any more!

Stanleysteamer said:

I learned off road driving in deep mud and on a steep hill in an ex-gasboard V8 110. It could go up a hill that you couldn't even stand up on. Amazing!

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I learned off road driving on a Fordson Major, and a Leyland tractor, which I think was a 248, but could be wrong.

You would be pretty surprised by what those can do too.

300bhp/ton said:

I don't believe you. Do you have any pictures of said lanes?

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Never been in a New Defender, but I have been in a Disco 4, top of the range with everything, including cameras underneath that told the vehicle how you were getting on.
Apart from the weight and bulk of the thing, as has been commented on, I thought it was fantastic off road.
Pretty much on a par with my axle lockered Ninety, although that was a lot cheaper.

Also it's like double the wading capacity as well right?

RustyDefender said:

Also it's like double the wading capacity as well right?

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Only as an official rating. Although you can wade deep with a traditional model, esp old ones without any electronics at risk.

Standard 90:

300bhp/ton said:

1998 is old

Defender came out in 1990 and ended production in 2016. 18 years with TCS vs 8 without. Even if you include the Ninety/One Ten that only brings it up 14 years without TCS. So the majority of 90's & 110's have TCS more than likely.

No idea what you are talking about with regards to the centre diff. No need to upgrade at all. Are you getting confused with how it works and what it does??

As for pulling over and having both wheels on one side on the grass. I'd suggest more likely they didn't have it in difflock. Hugely unlikely that it couldn't have driven off, unless the wheels where in a ditch and it was sat on the radius arms, axle & chassis.

In lab conditions on rollers or ice maybe it would be possible or if on a super steep climb. But real life it would be hugely unlikely to not have ability to drive off. You could also opt to go backwards as well as forwards and turn the wheels left to right. So I either don't believe you or there is more going on with that story.

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Obviously your right and everyone else is wrong. Even though you weren’t there. Twist it how you want if it makes you feel better as we all read your negative views on your experience with a new defender, which are contrary to what most who’ve driven one actually think, if the press are to be believed.

One thing I was trying to highlight was that the old defender with a body on ladder chassis, beam axles, and diff lock etc, and fairly light and narrow. Was a very capable 4x4 for everyone.
If you want to throw some money at it you can make an exceptional machine for what ever you want to do. Because all the basic core requirements are there.
Although the new defender is very good. it’s basic core has more in common with a regular car, monocoque body/ chassis, independent suspension, so your limited.

K14 said:

One thing I was trying to highlight was that the old defender with a body on ladder chassis, beam axles, and diff lock etc, and fairly light and narrow. Was a very capable 4x4 for everyone.
If you want to throw some money at it you can make an exceptional machine for what ever you want to do. Because all the basic core requirements are there.
Although the new defender is very good. it’s basic core has more in common with a regular car, monocoque body/ chassis, independent suspension, so your limited.

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How old is your defender.....wait until this new defender is the same age (wonder what the scrap value will be)
It wont be worth button. They do look nice & ive not been in one so cant really comment on them.

K14 said:

One thing I was trying to highlight was that the old defender with a body on ladder chassis, beam axles, and diff lock etc, and fairly light and narrow. Was a very capable 4x4 for everyone.
If you want to throw some money at it you can make an exceptional machine for what ever you want to do. Because all the basic core requirements are there.
Although the new defender is very good. it’s basic core has more in common with a regular car, monocoque body/ chassis, independent suspension, so your limited.

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Have a look at lucky 8 on YouTube to see how ‘limited’ the new defender is.

johnlad said:

Obviously your right and everyone else is wrong. Even though you weren’t there. Twist it how you want if it makes you feel better as we all read your negative views on your experience with a new defender, which are contrary to what most who’ve driven one actually think, if the press are to be believed.

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To some extent yes I do know. It is only physics and I've done a lot of serious off roading and playing about in 4x4's and specifically Land Rovers. As said, the most likely thing is they just didn't have it in diff lock, easily done and lots of us have done this sort of thing.

Do you have any photos or video of the location of incident? What you are describing sounds like this:


Which is pretty unbelievable that it couldn't drive off.

K14 said:

One thing I was trying to highlight was that the old defender with a body on ladder chassis, beam axles, and diff lock etc, and fairly light and narrow. Was a very capable 4x4 for everyone.
If you want to throw some money at it you can make an exceptional machine for what ever you want to do. Because all the basic core requirements are there.
Although the new defender is very good. it’s basic core has more in common with a regular car, monocoque body/ chassis, independent suspension, so your limited.

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The traditional Defender, as you say is indeed very good in its basic design. It is an extremely capable off road platform without the need for traction aids (diff lockers, TCS, etc). And can easily and moderately cheaply upgraded to be even better.

The new Defender is not so natively designed as an off road platform and does indeed largely rely on its traction systems and traction aids to make it capable off road. But it has to be conceded that it is indeed a highly capable vehicle when all said and done.

Lack of a ladder chassis is not really an issue off road, the monocoque body is plenty stiff enough and there have been plenty of monocoque live axle vehicles in the past. So chassis type has no real bearing on off road ability directly.

Independent suspension does make a difference. On rough terrain the new one should ride better. Such as higher speed forestry tracks, washboard roads or across a stubble field. But it will have a tendency to lift wheels more often on more technical terrain, thus relying on its traction systems. If you disabled the traction control, the new Defender would likely struggle off road in many situations. The new models biggest weakness off road is its size and weight compared to the traditional model.

Modding the new model is also harder, but not impossible.