Move radius arms to a narrow stance

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300tdi CCV

300tdi CCV

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Posts
10
Location
Wales
Here is a question for the ccv trialers out there. Has anyone tried moving the front radius arms closer together on the front axel to improve turning circle and therefore negate the need for offset wheels that make the stance wider which makes it worse for getting through gates.
I have a cut down and modified disco 1 with disco 2 front axle.
Any knowledge welcome.
 
What regs do you trial under? I’d have to double check but I don’t think ALRC regs would support such a mod. Unless class Q.
 
300bhp/ton said:
What regs do you trial under? I’d have to double check but I don’t think ALRC regs would support such a mod. Unless class Q.
Click to expand...
That's a good point worth checking. My local club is not under such stringent rules and not only open to land rovers, there is a very interesting mix of land rovers, Suzukis and other. We have to follow MSA guidelines. My motor is a single seater with fiddle breaks on the back wheels.
I do also drive a v8 80" coiler in a rover owners club from time to time.
 
Even if you move the radius arms the lock does not change? Or am I missing something...
If you had early axles use a set of disco steels with the centres changed to bring them inwards used to work.

depending on the wheel base 100” & over gets a shunt.
Unsure on this but I also thought you could not use fiddle brakes on 4wheel drive class( unless your super mods?)
 
Hicap phill said:
Even if you move the radius arms the lock does not change? Or am I missing something...
If you had early axles use a set of disco steels with the centres changed to bring them inwards used to work.

depending on the wheel base 100” & over gets a shunt.
Unsure on this but I also thought you could not use fiddle brakes on 4wheel drive class( unless your super mods?)
Click to expand...
Thanks for the comments.
So the chassis was a disco 1 but is now shortened to 90" and has d2 front axel which has a better turning lock. As I am running bigger tyres they hit the radius arms before I reach full lock. As I have the fiddle breaks you could argue that I dont need the improved turning at the front. I dont always want to have to use the fiddles and like the idea of a good turning circle without having to use skinny little tyres. Perhaps it wont work out. The other issue could be the CV joints are put under too much stress if I do all these mods. I have already put heavy duty CVs, shafts and 4 pid diffs in to strengthen things up.
My club has a few different classes that allow fiddles, they also allow locking diffs but I haven't gone down that route. I guess that's the beauty of having different classes, you can compete fairly in your class and get to see some interesting motors and learn more about what they are capable of.
Cheers.
 
300bhp/ton said:
What regs do you trial under? I’d have to double check but I don’t think ALRC regs would support such a mod. Unless class Q.
Click to expand...
300tdi CCV said:
That's a good point worth checking. My local club is not under such stringent rules and not only open to land rovers, there is a very interesting mix of land rovers, Suzukis and other. We have to follow MSA guidelines. My motor is a single seater with fiddle breaks on the back wheels.
I do also drive a v8 80" coiler in a rover owners club from time to time.
Click to expand...
 

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300tdi CCV said:
Thanks for the comments.
So the chassis was a disco 1 but is now shortened to 90" and has d2 front axel which has a better turning lock. As I am running bigger tyres they hit the radius arms before I reach full lock. As I have the fiddle breaks you could argue that I dont need the improved turning at the front. I dont always want to have to use the fiddles and like the idea of a good turning circle without having to use skinny little tyres. Perhaps it wont work out. The other issue could be the CV joints are put under too much stress if I do all these mods. I have already put heavy duty CVs, shafts and 4 pid diffs in to strengthen things up.
My club has a few different classes that allow fiddles, they also allow locking diffs but I haven't gone down that route. I guess that's the beauty of having different classes, you can compete fairly in your class and get to see some interesting motors and learn more about what they are capable of.
Cheers.
Click to expand...
I'd have thought you may reach the limit of the swivels too. What sort of tyres are you running? I can run a 285 width on an 8j rim with a 1" spacer and no steering lock stops and the tyres are clear of the radius arms. A narrower track would be nice sometimes though.

Are you still running radius arm front suspension? Not sure what impact it would have by narrowing it, maybe less travel and the front Land Rover suspension doesn't flex like the rear does anyway. Guess you could go to a custom 4 link setup which might solve all these issues.

Or you could look at some bowed radius arms, although maintaining strength and safety would be important. I think the p38 front arms are curved. Although the chassis is somewhat different too.

Other things I can think of. 4 wheel steering. Or maybe even use leafer axles if you want a lot narrower track. Although you'd have to be creative with the suspension as there is nowhere for the stock sized spring. But a coilover/air damper setup might be possible.
 
300bhp/ton said:
I'd have thought you may reach the limit of the swivels too. What sort of tyres are you running? I can run a 285 width on an 8j rim with a 1" spacer and no steering lock stops and the tyres are clear of the radius arms. A narrower track would be nice sometimes though.

Are you still running radius arm front suspension? Not sure what impact it would have by narrowing it, maybe less travel and the front Land Rover suspension doesn't flex like the rear does anyway. Guess you could go to a custom 4 link setup which might solve all these issues.

Or you could look at some bowed radius arms, although maintaining strength and safety would be important. I think the p38 front arms are curved. Although the chassis is somewhat different too.

Other things I can think of. 4 wheel steering. Or maybe even use leafer axles if you want a lot narrower track. Although you'd have to be creative with the suspension as there is nowhere for the stock sized spring. But a coilover/air damper setup might be possible.
Click to expand...

The current front wheels are actually standard d2 alloys that dont provide any offset at all so the most narrow you could get without using thin tyres. I have a pair of steel modular to put on that have a +25 offset which will make me approx 2" wider each side. I will need to see but I suspect they will still hit the radius arms as the tyres I have to use are either 265/75/16 or 235/85/16.
The steering knuckles have had the stop bolt removed and when the tyre is fouling on the radius arm i can see about an inch a turning lock left that i would like to use.
The suspension is gwyn lewis with a 5" lift. The rear trailing arms have been cranked and reinforced but the front radius arms are stock d2 with no castor correction. As it is just a trialer I'm not sure there is much benefit to spend £300+ just to correct the angle of the front axel. Feel free to tell me if you think there is a big benefit other radius arms.
Thanks for all the suggestions, some good food for thought. I will try to upload some pics to help visualise.
 
As it’s only a trials motor what about rose joints to the inner of the chassis? You can then move arms inwards.
You need to make sure that these won’t foul anything within the engine bay.
 
300tdi CCV said:
The current front wheels are actually standard d2 alloys that dont provide any offset at all so the most narrow you could get without using thin tyres. I have a pair of steel modular to put on that have a +25 offset which will make me approx 2" wider each side. I will need to see but I suspect they will still hit the radius arms as the tyres I have to use are either 265/75/16 or 235/85/16.
The steering knuckles have had the stop bolt removed and when the tyre is fouling on the radius arm i can see about an inch a turning lock left that i would like to use.
The suspension is gwyn lewis with a 5" lift. The rear trailing arms have been cranked and reinforced but the front radius arms are stock d2 with no castor correction. As it is just a trialer I'm not sure there is much benefit to spend £300+ just to correct the angle of the front axel. Feel free to tell me if you think there is a big benefit other radius arms.
Thanks for all the suggestions, some good food for thought. I will try to upload some pics to help visualise.
Click to expand...
Gwyn Lewis can crank your existing front radius arms for far less than £300, it takes a lot of strain off the front uj in the prop
 
Hicap phill said:
As it’s only a trials motor what about rose joints to the inner of the chassis? You can then move arms inwards.
You need to make sure that these won’t foul anything within the engine bay.
Click to expand...
Rose joints are an interesting solution that might work with a curved radius arm, together they might be strong enough. Not sure if it would work or not but I will give it some thought. Thanks is again for the ideas.
 
johnlad said:
Gwyn Lewis can crank your existing front radius arms for far less than £300, it takes a lot of strain off the front uj in the prop
Click to expand...
Thanks for the tip. I had bar props make me up a pair of heavy duty props with double ended wide angles at both ends. Given that they are not the stock props do you think this would still be an issue for the UJ?
 
300tdi CCV said:
Thanks for the tip. I had bar props make me up a pair of heavy duty props with double ended wide angles at both ends. Given that they are not the stock props do you think this would still be an issue for the UJ?
Click to expand...
It’s always better if the diff nose is in line with the uj because even the extreme wide angle uj’s wear out eventually, so minimising the angle only helps them last longer.
 
btw, when I said bowed arms. I wasn't meaning cranked. I meant bowed into towards the centre of the vehicle to allow wheel clearance. Google what a p38 Range Rover front arm looks like.
 
300bhp/ton said:
btw, when I said bowed arms. I wasn't meaning cranked. I meant bowed into towards the centre of the vehicle to allow wheel clearance. Google what a p38 Range Rover front arm looks like.
Click to expand...
I see what you mean about bow in the p38 radius arms. They might just do the trick.i dont know if they would fit, I suppose I will have to get my hands on a set and offer them up.
Thanks
 
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