Mounting winches amidships?

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I

Ian Rawlings

Guest
Hello all, this is pertinent to a future off-roading plan I have,
either a Landy with Mog or Volvo C303 axles, or a Pinz, or perhaps
both if the money stacks up.

I'd like winches, two, one pulling forwards, one backwards, but I
want to avoid having a winch sticking out the front or rear of the
machine. On some 101s I've seen, the winch is mounted in the middle
of the truck with cables routed to the front. I like this idea.

What I'd like is to have a winch on either side of the truck mounted
between the wheels, then route the cables, one to the front, the other
to the rear. This depends on how the routing of the cables affects
the power of the winch and also the re-spooling of the cable back onto
the winch drum. Chances are the winches would have to be mounted
lengthways so the cable would have to go through a 90-degree bend
before going fore or aft.

This could be done with a large-ish diameter pulley (say 6-8 inches
diameter) mounted on a frame that can take the winches full pull, then
the pulley should allow the cable enough freedom to wander up and down
the winch drum as it's reeled in. I have no idea how much of the
winches power would be sapped this way.

Does anyone know how viable such a back-of-the-envelope plan is, and
if the 101s do it this way or do they use some other cunning plan?

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
Ian Rawlings wrote:

>
> Does anyone know how viable such a back-of-the-envelope plan is, and
> if the 101s do it this way or do they use some other cunning plan?
>
> --
> Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

On the 101, going to the front fairlead the cable does 2 90deg bends to
line up with it via 2 fairly small pulleys. To the rear its a straight
pull. Changing from front to rear does involve a fair bit of buggering
around with the cable.

Sean
73FL74 101GS
1984 110 2.5NA
Medway Military Vehicle Group
www.mmvg.net

 
Ian Rawlings wrote:

> Hello all, this is pertinent to a future off-roading plan I have,
> either a Landy with Mog or Volvo C303 axles, or a Pinz, or perhaps
> both if the money stacks up.
>
> I'd like winches, two, one pulling forwards, one backwards, but I
> want to avoid having a winch sticking out the front or rear of the
> machine. On some 101s I've seen, the winch is mounted in the middle
> of the truck with cables routed to the front. I like this idea.
>
> What I'd like is to have a winch on either side of the truck mounted
> between the wheels, then route the cables, one to the front, the other
> to the rear. This depends on how the routing of the cables affects
> the power of the winch and also the re-spooling of the cable back onto
> the winch drum. Chances are the winches would have to be mounted
> lengthways so the cable would have to go through a 90-degree bend
> before going fore or aft.
>
> This could be done with a large-ish diameter pulley (say 6-8 inches
> diameter) mounted on a frame that can take the winches full pull, then
> the pulley should allow the cable enough freedom to wander up and down
> the winch drum as it's reeled in. I have no idea how much of the
> winches power would be sapped this way.
>
> Does anyone know how viable such a back-of-the-envelope plan is, and
> if the 101s do it this way or do they use some other cunning plan?

Have a look at this:
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO9919245&F=0

Productionised as an attachment to John Foers Ibex - now sold by
Ricardo. There's a one paragraph description on their horrible website:
http://www.ibexvehicles.com/

This is the description of the 101's arrangement:
http://www.landrover.ee/est/files/manuals/winch/101Winch.pdf
 
Ian Rawlings wrote:
> Hello all, this is pertinent to a future off-roading plan I have,
> either a Landy with Mog or Volvo C303 axles, or a Pinz, or perhaps
> both if the money stacks up.
>
> I'd like winches, two, one pulling forwards, one backwards, but I
> want to avoid having a winch sticking out the front or rear of the
> machine. On some 101s I've seen, the winch is mounted in the middle
> of the truck with cables routed to the front. I like this idea.
>
> What I'd like is to have a winch on either side of the truck mounted
> between the wheels, then route the cables, one to the front, the other
> to the rear. This depends on how the routing of the cables affects
> the power of the winch and also the re-spooling of the cable back onto
> the winch drum. Chances are the winches would have to be mounted
> lengthways so the cable would have to go through a 90-degree bend
> before going fore or aft.
>
> This could be done with a large-ish diameter pulley (say 6-8 inches
> diameter) mounted on a frame that can take the winches full pull, then
> the pulley should allow the cable enough freedom to wander up and down
> the winch drum as it's reeled in. I have no idea how much of the
> winches power would be sapped this way.
>
> Does anyone know how viable such a back-of-the-envelope plan is, and
> if the 101s do it this way or do they use some other cunning plan?
>
Ian,
This is how Oshkosh Truck handled their midship winch mount.

http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/pdf/Oshkosh_HEMTT_A2_brochure.pdf

 
On 2006-04-05, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:

> On the 101, going to the front fairlead the cable does 2 90deg bends to
> line up with it via 2 fairly small pulleys.

Yes, I've just found that I already have the 101 parts manual for some
reason, and it has diagrams of it in there. The 101 cable spool is
quite narrow however, which would help with even spooling of the
cable, unlike more conventional winches.

Still useful though, I might even have to nick some of the parts!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-04-05, Dougal <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

> Have a look at this:
> http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO9919245&F=0

I don't like that solution at all, for a start the offset angle of the
cable pull onto the winch drum isn't going to help with spooling the
cable back evenly, secondly the effective length of the cable in one
direction is halved as you have no choice other than to use the pulley
to attach to the anchor point, and thirdly in both pulling directions
the cable is offset too far from the centre of the vehicle for my
liking. I don't know why he bothered patenting that, I'd have dumped
that idea at an early stage.

> Productionised as an attachment to John Foers Ibex - now sold by
> Ricardo. There's a one paragraph description on their horrible website:
> http://www.ibexvehicles.com/

I lost the will to live very quickly on that website, the text being
two pixels wide on my 800x600 "TV" screen on the lounge computer
doesn't help...

> This is the description of the 101's arrangement:
> http://www.landrover.ee/est/files/manuals/winch/101Winch.pdf

Cheers, I found the winch exploded diagrams in the 101 parts manual,
which gives me an idea, the PDF you linked to has some better
diagrams, particularly on the rear setup. I like the cable exit
points with the twin pulley wheels to allow sideways pulling! I'm not
sure if a fairlead (if that's what they're called) roller setup is as
good.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-04-05, Jeffrey S Austin <[email protected]> wrote:

> This is how Oshkosh Truck handled their midship winch mount.

Cheers for that, but I couldn't find any details on the winch setup in
there. Perhaps this is due to the contents of the file being total
hardcore mech-porn of the highest order, which has ruined my eyesight!

I'll see if I can find some details on the oshkosh setup on t' internet.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-04-05, Jeffrey S Austin <[email protected]> wrote:

> This is how Oshkosh Truck handled their midship winch mount.

Heh, they do a hybrid version of their 8x8 million-tonne monster,
should keep the bunny huggers happy ;-)

Flash-laden website though :-( Hard to find anything useful as usual.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2006-04-05, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > On the 101, going to the front fairlead the cable does 2 90deg bends to
> > line up with it via 2 fairly small pulleys.
>
> Yes, I've just found that I already have the 101 parts manual for some
> reason, and it has diagrams of it in there. The 101 cable spool is
> quite narrow however, which would help with even spooling of the
> cable, unlike more conventional winches.
>
> Still useful though, I might even have to nick some of the parts!
>

I've always wondered at the logic of the mid mount on the 101s - was
it done to shorten the overall length of the vehicle, because having to
change the cable direction whilst upto your family jewels in cold water
does not appeal at all. Maybe it was just a method of getting the squaddies
to drive carefully - "Oops I'm stuck", "You stupid tosser, now get out in
that freezing water and re spool the winch cable and pull yourself out
backwards"

If vehicle length was not a problem I'd have gone for a PTO driven capstan
front and rear.


 

"Jeffrey S Austin" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Ian Rawlings wrote:
>> Hello all, this is pertinent to a future off-roading plan I have,
>> either a Landy with Mog or Volvo C303 axles, or a Pinz, or perhaps
>> both if the money stacks up.
>>
>> I'd like winches, two, one pulling forwards, one backwards, but I
>> want to avoid having a winch sticking out the front or rear of the
>> machine. On some 101s I've seen, the winch is mounted in the middle
>> of the truck with cables routed to the front. I like this idea.
>>
>> What I'd like is to have a winch on either side of the truck mounted
>> between the wheels, then route the cables, one to the front, the other
>> to the rear. This depends on how the routing of the cables affects
>> the power of the winch and also the re-spooling of the cable back onto
>> the winch drum. Chances are the winches would have to be mounted
>> lengthways so the cable would have to go through a 90-degree bend
>> before going fore or aft.
>>
>> This could be done with a large-ish diameter pulley (say 6-8 inches
>> diameter) mounted on a frame that can take the winches full pull, then
>> the pulley should allow the cable enough freedom to wander up and down
>> the winch drum as it's reeled in. I have no idea how much of the
>> winches power would be sapped this way.
>>
>> Does anyone know how viable such a back-of-the-envelope plan is, and
>> if the 101s do it this way or do they use some other cunning plan?
>>
> Ian,
> This is how Oshkosh Truck handled their midship winch mount.
>
> http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/pdf/Oshkosh_HEMTT_A2_brochure.pdf
M984 A2 Recovery Truck
Main winch rated 27240 kg now that is something else. I 've seen the bridge
truck in the paint while delivering spares and as I have said before it
impressed the hell out of me and also made my 7 ton merc look a kids toy
hohum
Derek


 
On 2006-04-05, Roger <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've always wondered at the logic of the mid mount on the 101s - was
> it done to shorten the overall length of the vehicle, because having to
> change the cable direction whilst upto your family jewels in cold water

It wouldn't be nice, but I suspect that being able to change the
direction of pull was the logic behind it, as well as not having to
mess up the weight distribution, which could be more important on a
machine intended to carry loads than we might suspect.

I'd try and rig up something similar, but every time I've ever been
stuck, it's been hard to get to either one side of the truck, or the
underside of the truck. Sod's law would dictate that the winch would
be set up for a front pull, I'd need a rear pull and the side the
winch was on would be submerged in mud!

Mind you I still might go for that option and have the hand-winch in
the back of the truck to fend off bad luck.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-04-05, Derek <[email protected]> wrote:

> Main winch rated 27240 kg now that is something else. I 've seen the bridge
> truck in the paint while delivering spares and as I have said before it
> impressed the hell out of me and also made my 7 ton merc look a kids toy

It's quite surprising that they're now making them in hybrid
diesel-electric versions, although perhaps not so surprising when you
remember that diesel locomotives work that way, and they make the
Oshkosh look like a kid's toy.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
....and Derek spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...

>> Ian,
>> This is how Oshkosh Truck handled their midship winch mount.
>>
>> http://www.oshkoshtruck.com/pdf/Oshkosh_HEMTT_A2_brochure.pdf
> M984 A2 Recovery Truck
> Main winch rated 27240 kg now that is something else. I 've seen the
> bridge truck in the paint while delivering spares and as I have said
> before it impressed the hell out of me and also made my 7 ton merc
> look a kids toy hohum
> Derek

400 mile range, 155 gallon tank - that's 2.5 mpg. Makes a Rangie look
economical.

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.


 
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 20:38:57 +0100, Roger wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

>

>
> I've always wondered at the logic of the mid mount on the 101s - was
> it done to shorten the overall length of the vehicle, because having to
> change the cable direction whilst upto your family jewels in cold water
> does not appeal at all. Maybe it was just a method of getting the squaddies
> to drive carefully - "Oops I'm stuck", "You stupid tosser, now get out in
> that freezing water and re spool the winch cable and pull yourself out
> backwards"

I suspect it may have something to do with the vehicle's military heritage.
The 4 ton 4x4 Bedford truck which was the next size up military utility
vehicle from the 101 has a mid mounted winch with a vertical axis on the
drum. It also had a very large drum diameter - always put me in mind of the
winch on a ploughing (steam) engine.

Nick.

 
On Wed, 5 Apr 2006 19:45:28 +0100, Ian Rawlings <[email protected]>
wrote:

>> Have a look at this:
>> http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=WO9919245&F=0
>
>I don't like that solution at all, for a start the offset angle of the
>cable pull onto the winch drum isn't going to help with spooling the
>cable back evenly, secondly the effective length of the cable in one
>direction is halved as you have no choice other than to use the pulley
>to attach to the anchor point, and thirdly in both pulling directions
>the cable is offset too far from the centre of the vehicle for my
>liking.


I always considered this an elegant solution, the drum spooling is a
red herring from the way the drawing is set out, the rear fairlead can
be narrow. OK the rearward pull is double the force and half the
available rope travel and the forward pull is through a load of
rollers but it does the job.

AJH
 
Hi Group
Another military vehicle, the ancient petrol engined Scammell 6x6 had the
winch amidships and could be routed to front or rear with pulleys at the
rear and vertical rollers at the front. It was no fun switching it around
especially in temperatures exceeding 100F.
Alan


 

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2006-04-05, Derek <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Main winch rated 27240 kg now that is something else. I 've seen the
>> bridge
>> truck in the paint while delivering spares and as I have said before it
>> impressed the hell out of me and also made my 7 ton merc look a kids toy
>
> It's quite surprising that they're now making them in hybrid
> diesel-electric versions, although perhaps not so surprising when you
> remember that diesel locomotives work that way, and they make the
> Oshkosh look like a kid's toy.
>
> --
> Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

It's probably the way to go once the technology is sorted I expect they
will be more efficient than conventional 4wd with less energy loss (
friction diff loads etc).Couple that with regenerative braking which has
been around for a long time the only missing piece in the jigsaw is a
battery or rather power storage medium that doesn't have the weight penalty
of the stuff available now it can't be long coming? ( the bridge carriers I
saw are just the babies of the range makes you wonder what they make for a
really big job)
Derek


 
On 2006-04-05, AJH <[email protected]> wrote:

> I always considered this an elegant solution, the drum spooling is a
> red herring from the way the drawing is set out, the rear fairlead
> can be narrow. OK the rearward pull is double the force and half the
> available rope travel and the forward pull is through a load of
> rollers but it does the job.

Well after having a think about it, it's not such a bad idea, and the
off-centre bit is really an installation-specific thing, the idea
still holds up. If it could be made re-routable as well then that
could sort out the niggles regarding half the length in one direction
and the convoluted path in the other if the need was great enough.

I'm not sure how much winch power gets sapped by using rollers and
pulleys to guide it in any of these various installations though. If
you route a cable through an angle then a lot of force is going to get
put on the pulley, and that force has to come from somewhere. Damn my
comprehensive school level physics ;-)

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-04-05, Roberts <[email protected]> wrote:

> It was no fun switching it around especially in temperatures
> exceeding 100F.

Rather that than digging a Scammell out ;-)

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-04-05, Derek <[email protected]> wrote:

> It's probably the way to go once the technology is sorted I expect
> they will be more efficient than conventional 4wd with less energy
> loss

The environmental lot seem to like it, although I'm not so sure
they'll like it when they look at the difference between the materials
used in a conventional drivetrain and an electrical drivetrain. Lots
of nasty metals used in electrical drivetrains and batteries.

I like the way the Oshkosh can "creep silently" on battery power, one
of those things "creeping" anywhere doesn't really fit does it!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
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