Modifications and Invalidating Insurance

Apologies if this has been covered before, although this is what you
might call a "variation on a theme". (I have looked through previous
posts and this precise topic doesn't seem to have been covered)

This has been stimulated by comments made in a thread I have been
reading on an LRO forum.

A couple of months ago I bought a 110 CSW. In those two months I have
converted it to run on vegetable oil (hence "Reggie the Veggie") which
was by the very simple addition of a heat exchanger in the heater
circuit and added a roof rack. I have also bought a capstan winch and
diesel heater (yet to be fitted).

I knew that after making the veggie conversion I needed to let my
insurer know, but I wasn't aware that adding a roof-rack classes as a
modification as well.

The nice lass at Adrian Flux defined a modification as "anything that
is different to the basic model" (or something along those lines.)
Thus the diesel heater and capstan winch also class as modifications.

The question now comes, when does a modification stop and adding an
accessory start? I am planning on replacing the factory fitted horns
with air horns - is that a "modification". Similarly, if I add
spotlights, does that count?

It might also be worth, all those of you who have made additions to
your LR, as to whether in fact you have "modified" your LR and thus if
you don't declare it I assume the insurer may have legitimate grounds
to decline any insurance claims as a result.

This is not a rant (even though it may seem like it), nor is it
scaremongering (not intentianally anyway) its just trying to understand
when a minor change stops and a modification starts and to make sure
that all of us have got cast iron insurance cover!

Does anybody elses have experience with or views on this?

Cheers

Peter

1990 110 CSW "Reggie the Veggie"
1973 Hillman Imp
1964 Rover P4 110
1959 Austin A40 Farina

puffernutter wrote:

> The nice lass at Adrian Flux defined a modification as "anything that
> is different to the basic model" (or something along those lines.)
> Thus the diesel heater and capstan winch also class as modifications.
>

I asked Roadsure who insure both of our 101s, they said modifications
were fine by them, anytime, provided they were approved by an MOT
inspector - they figure most anything you do to a 101 would improve its
safety....

Steve

In message <[email protected]>
Steve <[email protected]> wrote:

> puffernutter wrote:
>
> > The nice lass at Adrian Flux defined a modification as "anything that
> > is different to the basic model" (or something along those lines.)
> > Thus the diesel heater and capstan winch also class as modifications.
> >
>
> I asked Roadsure who insure both of our 101s, they said modifications
> were fine by them, anytime, provided they were approved by an MOT
> inspector - they figure most anything you do to a 101 would improve its
> safety....
>
> Steve

NFU are generally happy with mods, but you must always tell them, or
any insurance comapny, what you have done. The reason is something along
the lines of...... (as described by the NFU rep at a Carriage Driving club
I used to be involved with).

You have an accident.
You claim on your insurance.
Ideally, after a lot af faffing about, you get your money.
If it is a big claim, or there are 3rd part issues, the insurance company
will look around for *any* chance of getting some, or all, of their
money back form *anyone* involved - be it another insurance company,
or an individual. If you motor was modified, it's *possible* that someone,
usually a company, but it could be an individual, will come after you
personaly for the money, despite you being insured, as your mods
may give them a way in (unless your insurance company is completely
happy with you vehicle).

This may sound bizzare, but it happend to my ex in a horse accident -
they even tried asking if she was using spurs (pointy things, not the
football club) as this could have technically breached our/her insurance.
The claim had been "bought" by a no-win-no-fee outfit, and it was only
down to the NFU fighting our corner that we didn't get into a right mess.

That is also why any of you who hold an "official" position in a club,
be it an officially organised or informal club, should be *very* worried
if something goes wrong, unless you are a limited company or personally
insured against such things (you houshold policy may cover this). Even if
the "vitcim" does not want to make a claim against you, someone else might.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

beamendsltd wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>
> Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>puffernutter wrote:
>>
>>
>>>The nice lass at Adrian Flux defined a modification as "anything that
>>>is different to the basic model" (or something along those lines.)
>>>Thus the diesel heater and capstan winch also class as modifications.
>>>
>>
>>I asked Roadsure who insure both of our 101s, they said modifications
>>were fine by them, anytime, provided they were approved by an MOT
>>inspector - they figure most anything you do to a 101 would improve its
>>safety....
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> NFU are generally happy with mods, but you must always tell them, or
> any insurance comapny, what you have done. The reason is something along
> the lines of...... (as described by the NFU rep at a Carriage Driving club
> I used to be involved with).
>
> You have an accident.
> You claim on your insurance.
> Ideally, after a lot af faffing about, you get your money.
> If it is a big claim, or there are 3rd part issues, the insurance company
> will look around for *any* chance of getting some, or all, of their
> money back form *anyone* involved - be it another insurance company,
> or an individual. If you motor was modified, it's *possible* that someone,
> usually a company, but it could be an individual, will come after you
> personaly for the money, despite you being insured, as your mods
> may give them a way in (unless your insurance company is completely
> happy with you vehicle).
>
> This may sound bizzare, but it happend to my ex in a horse accident -
> they even tried asking if she was using spurs (pointy things, not the
> football club) as this could have technically breached our/her insurance.
> The claim had been "bought" by a no-win-no-fee outfit, and it was only
> down to the NFU fighting our corner that we didn't get into a right mess.
>
> That is also why any of you who hold an "official" position in a club,
> be it an officially organised or informal club, should be *very* worried
> if something goes wrong, unless you are a limited company or personally
> insured against such things (you houshold policy may cover this). Even if
> the "vitcim" does not want to make a claim against you, someone else might.
>
> Richard

Of course the other reason is in case you want to claim for the
modifications as well as the vehicle. e.g. I've just added a set of 5
BFG AT's to my 90 and the insurer is OK with it (NIG) but has advised I
keep the receipt and also take photo's just in case. No good making a
claim and saying 'oh yeah it had £500 worth of tyres on it as well, I
forgot to mention'.

Now, must pop off to buy some locking wheel nuts before somebody takes a
fancy to my new boots

Dave.


Dave.

On or around Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:15:47 +0000, Dave Gibbs
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Of course the other reason is in case you want to claim for the
>modifications as well as the vehicle. e.g. I've just added a set of 5
>BFG AT's to my 90 and the insurer is OK with it (NIG) but has advised I
>keep the receipt and also take photo's just in case. No good making a
>claim and saying 'oh yeah it had £500 worth of tyres on it as well, I
>forgot to mention'.

yebbut, hangon, this is getting silly. I've just put new tyres on the
minibus, cost almost 300 quid. Do I have to notify the insurance that I've
replaced the tyres ??!

Now if I fitted fancy alloy wheels and new tyres, I can understand. But the
value of the vehicle includes the tyres.

I guess "keep the receipt" makes sense (does anyway - you'll want it if a
tyre proves to be defective) inasmuch that if it *did* get nicked, you
*might* be able to claim extra for the new tyres - but the insurance would
probably just say "hah! prove that they were on the vehicle when it was
stolen, then!"

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"There are three sorts of people in the world - those who can count,
and those who can't" (Anon)

....and Dave Gibbs spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


> beamendsltd wrote:
>> In message <[email protected]>
>> Steve <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> puffernutter wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> The nice lass at Adrian Flux defined a modification as "anything
>>>> that is different to the basic model" (or something along those
>>>> lines.) Thus the diesel heater and capstan winch also class as
>>>> modifications.
>>>
>>> I asked Roadsure who insure both of our 101s, they said
>>> modifications were fine by them, anytime, provided they were
>>> approved by an MOT inspector - they figure most anything you do to
>>> a 101 would improve its safety....
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>
>> NFU are generally happy with mods, but you must always tell them, or
>> any insurance comapny, what you have done. The reason is something
>> along the lines of...... (as described by the NFU rep at a Carriage
>> Driving club I used to be involved with).
>>
>> You have an accident.
>> You claim on your insurance.
>> Ideally, after a lot af faffing about, you get your money.
>> If it is a big claim, or there are 3rd part issues, the insurance
>> company will look around for *any* chance of getting some, or all,
>> of their money back form *anyone* involved - be it another insurance
>> company,
>> or an individual. If you motor was modified, it's *possible* that
>> someone, usually a company, but it could be an individual, will come
>> after you personaly for the money, despite you being insured, as
>> your mods may give them a way in (unless your insurance company is
>> completely
>> happy with you vehicle).
>>
>> This may sound bizzare, but it happend to my ex in a horse accident -
>> they even tried asking if she was using spurs (pointy things, not the
>> football club) as this could have technically breached our/her
>> insurance. The claim had been "bought" by a no-win-no-fee outfit,
>> and it was only down to the NFU fighting our corner that we didn't
>> get into a right mess. That is also why any of you who hold an "official"
>> position in a
>> club, be it an officially organised or informal club, should be *very*
>> worried if something goes wrong, unless you are a limited company or
>> personally insured against such things (you houshold policy may
>> cover this). Even if the "vitcim" does not want to make a claim
>> against you, someone else might. Richard
>
> Of course the other reason is in case you want to claim for the
> modifications as well as the vehicle. e.g. I've just added a set of 5
> BFG AT's to my 90 and the insurer is OK with it (NIG) but has advised
> I keep the receipt and also take photo's just in case. No good
> making a claim and saying 'oh yeah it had £500 worth of tyres on it
> as well, I forgot to mention'.
>
> Now, must pop off to buy some locking wheel nuts before somebody
> takes a fancy to my new boots
>
> Dave.
>
>
> Dave.

I have just reinsured the Disco and the S2a with Footman James. Over the
phone, the best price, and when I asked about modifications (and listed
them - JJF intercooler & chip for the Disco and Turner head and parabolics
for the S2) she went away to check and then came back with "no problem". So
I went ahead, paid by CC, and waited for the documentation to arrive. When
it came, no mention of any of the mods on the statement of insurance, and a
lot of other minor errors like driving test dates pulled out of thin air,
car garaged when I clearly said parked on the drive, and so on.

I have amended these forms and sent them back, and I'm hoping that there
will be no problem. If they kick up about the modifications I will ask them
to send me a copy of the call I made, where I know I disclosed them all.

Tis a bit worrying. And yes, I did keep copies of everything!

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

On or around Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:03:36 +0000, MVP
<mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> enlightened us thusly:

>On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:40:40 +0000, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On or around Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:15:47 +0000, Dave Gibbs
>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>Of course the other reason is in case you want to claim for the
>>>modifications as well as the vehicle. e.g. I've just added a set of 5
>>>BFG AT's to my 90 and the insurer is OK with it (NIG) but has advised I
>>>keep the receipt and also take photo's just in case. No good making a
>>>claim and saying 'oh yeah it had £500 worth of tyres on it as well, I
>>>forgot to mention'.
>>
>>yebbut, hangon, this is getting silly. I've just put new tyres on the
>>minibus, cost almost 300 quid. Do I have to notify the insurance that I've
>>replaced the tyres ??!
>>
>>Now if I fitted fancy alloy wheels and new tyres, I can understand. But the
>>value of the vehicle includes the tyres.
>
>If they are of a different size than the vehicle left the factory
>with. yes.

yeah, well, that counts as a mod. But simply fitting 500 quidsworth of new
tyres is not a mod. But you'd be sick if the motor got nicked the next
week... so keeping the bill for to argue with the insurers if it happened
would be a good plan.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"My centre is giving way, my right is in retreat; situation excellent.
I shall attack. - Marshal Foch (1851 - 1929)

In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

> On or around Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:03:36 +0000, MVP
> <mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:40:40 +0000, Austin Shackles
> ><[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >>On or around Thu, 01 Dec 2005 19:15:47 +0000, Dave Gibbs
> >><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> >>
> >>>Of course the other reason is in case you want to claim for the
> >>>modifications as well as the vehicle. e.g. I've just added a set of 5
> >>>BFG AT's to my 90 and the insurer is OK with it (NIG) but has advised I
> >>>keep the receipt and also take photo's just in case. No good making a
> >>>claim and saying 'oh yeah it had £500 worth of tyres on it as well, I
> >>>forgot to mention'.
> >>
> >>yebbut, hangon, this is getting silly. I've just put new tyres on the
> >>minibus, cost almost 300 quid. Do I have to notify the insurance that I've
> >>replaced the tyres ??!
> >>
> >>Now if I fitted fancy alloy wheels and new tyres, I can understand. But the
> >>value of the vehicle includes the tyres.
> >
> >If they are of a different size than the vehicle left the factory
> >with. yes.
>
> yeah, well, that counts as a mod. But simply fitting 500 quidsworth of new
> tyres is not a mod. But you'd be sick if the motor got nicked the next
> week... so keeping the bill for to argue with the insurers if it happened
> would be a good plan.
>

Surely a recipt from the supplier/fitter would cover that?

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

As I have said before I have had no problems with modifications, such as the
camper conversion, or engine swap with Footmans James, so long as I let them
know.

Now I have not told them about the spotlights, or the door mirror, but that
would be downright silly,

I cannot see that the addition of any number of standard accessories counts
as modification.

Any way in the distant past when I wrote of a Ford Sierra, I cannot say that
it was exactly factory specification as it had some accessories fitted,
including an electric fan and towbar, but I don't recall being refused a
payout as a result.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes


"puffernutter" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Apologies if this has been covered before, although this is what you
> might call a "variation on a theme". (I have looked through previous
> posts and this precise topic doesn't seem to have been covered)
>
> This has been stimulated by comments made in a thread I have been
> reading on an LRO forum.
>
> A couple of months ago I bought a 110 CSW. In those two months I have
> converted it to run on vegetable oil (hence "Reggie the Veggie") which
> was by the very simple addition of a heat exchanger in the heater
> circuit and added a roof rack. I have also bought a capstan winch and
> diesel heater (yet to be fitted).
>
> I knew that after making the veggie conversion I needed to let my
> insurer know, but I wasn't aware that adding a roof-rack classes as a
> modification as well.
>
> The nice lass at Adrian Flux defined a modification as "anything that
> is different to the basic model" (or something along those lines.)
> Thus the diesel heater and capstan winch also class as modifications.
>
> The question now comes, when does a modification stop and adding an
> accessory start? I am planning on replacing the factory fitted horns
> with air horns - is that a "modification". Similarly, if I add
> spotlights, does that count?
>
> It might also be worth, all those of you who have made additions to
> your LR, as to whether in fact you have "modified" your LR and thus if
> you don't declare it I assume the insurer may have legitimate grounds
> to decline any insurance claims as a result.
>
> This is not a rant (even though it may seem like it), nor is it
> scaremongering (not intentianally anyway) its just trying to understand
> when a minor change stops and a modification starts and to make sure
> that all of us have got cast iron insurance cover!
>
> Does anybody elses have experience with or views on this?
>
> Cheers
>
> Peter
>
> 1990 110 CSW "Reggie the Veggie"
> 1973 Hillman Imp
> 1964 Rover P4 110
> 1959 Austin A40 Farina
>

In message <[email protected]>, Larry
<[email protected]> writes
>As I have said before I have had no problems with modifications, such as the
>camper conversion, or engine swap with Footmans James, so long as I let them
>know.
>
>Now I have not told them about the spotlights, or the door mirror, but that
>would be downright silly,
>
>I cannot see that the addition of any number of standard accessories counts
>as modification.
>
>Any way in the distant past when I wrote of a Ford Sierra, I cannot say that
>it was exactly factory specification as it had some accessories fitted,
>including an electric fan and towbar, but I don't recall being refused a
>payout as a result.
>
>

But did you get any extra compensation because of the value of the
accessories?

Just speaking from personal experience. [1]

Insurance companies are interested in:
performance enhancements
additional cost of repair due to the fitting of modifications or
accessories
a realistic assessment of the value of the vehicle.

You are interested in enhancement to value due to fitting of
modifications or enhancements.

[1] Insurance company queried at first extra cost of repair of a wing
due to roll cage - but they had to back down as I'd notified them of it.
Fitting LPG conversion NOT treated as a performance enhancement,
therefore most insurance companies just treat it as an accessory and
don't charge extra premium. Again if you have notified them then it can
be taken in to account in the event of repair being needed under an
accident claim. (Most now ask for some sort of certification that it has
been competently installed thanks to those interfering busy bodies the
LPGA)
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting

On Sun, 4 Dec 2005 22:33:18 +0000, hugh <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote:

>[1] Insurance company queried at first extra cost of repair of a wing
>due to roll cage - but they had to back down as I'd notified them of it.
>Fitting LPG conversion NOT treated as a performance enhancement,
>therefore most insurance companies just treat it as an accessory and
>don't charge extra premium. Again if you have notified them then it can
>be taken in to account in the event of repair being needed under an
>accident claim. (Most now ask for some sort of certification that it has
>been competently installed thanks to those interfering busy bodies the
>LPGA)

My insurance company charged me an extra £12.50 for the LPG conversion
and didnt want the certificate.

Which was completely the opposite of what they said they would do when
i rang them before doing it to check.

They also insisted on sending me a new cover note which is identical
to the old one.