M51 (non) Running Issue

wammers said:

He didn't turn the crank pulley by hand unless his name is Popeye. No need to turn anything changing belt.

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OK, I think this probably rules that out

I think I'm going to check the flow to the fuel filter and whether the fuel has more debris in, and perhaps for the sake of a few quid try a replacement fuel filter, if this were to work, I guess I'd need to use biocide additive.

Regards, Alex.

Black bitd in the fuel is almost certainly bacterial.

Been out with the car today making most of dry weather.

I tested the fuel sender pump and got about 200ml of fuel through in 10seconds which I beleive is good compared with another thread stating 180ml should come through. The fuel looked clear with no obvious debris.

Summary of checks so far:-

• I read that a flooded ECU can cause similar issues, I checked it and it's dry.
• I changed the fuel filter and the issue remained. The old fuel from the filter had some small black particles in, but nothing substantial.
• With both MAF and MAP sensors disconnected there's no change.
• With both temperature sensors disconnected (dial and ECU) there's no change.
• With the No.4 Injector wire disconnected there's no change.
• With both No.4 Injector wire and Crank Position Sensor disconnected the engine doesn't fire, this is the same with just the Crank Sensor disconnected.
• Oil looks free from water and coolant is free from oil, which would support the compression test result. There is some debris in the coolant which looks like small particles of rust (orange colour).
• The inlet manifold has been removed for the tests, I also disconnected the exhaust pipe from the EGR, this emits white exhaust fumes (as does the exhaust).
• I did this as I am planning to check if the Catalyst is blocked next weekend when I have asistance to get the car on stands and loosen the front pipe where it joins the Catalyst.
• After trying to run it, there is some white wispy fumes rising from the inlets, which does resemble the exhaust fumes.

Here's a video of it, although not sure it's going to reveal much - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z88IfPTXrGY

Thanks for your help so far, it's appreciated. I also welcome any additional input/suggestions.

Regards, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

Been out with the car today making most of dry weather.

I tested the fuel sender pump and got about 200ml of fuel through in 10seconds which I beleive is good compared with another thread stating 180ml should come through. The fuel looked clear with no obvious debris.

Summary of checks so far:-

• I read that a flooded ECU can cause similar issues, I checked it and it's dry.
• I changed the fuel filter and the issue remained. The old fuel from the filter had some small black particles in, but nothing substantial.
• With both MAF and MAP sensors disconnected there's no change.
• With both temperature sensors disconnected (dial and ECU) there's no change.
• With the No.4 Injector wire disconnected there's no change.
• With both No.4 Injector wire and Crank Position Sensor disconnected the engine doesn't fire, this is the same with just the Crank Sensor disconnected.
• Oil looks free from water and coolant is free from oil, which would support the compression test result. There is some debris in the coolant which looks like small particles of rust (orange colour).
• The inlet manifold has been removed for the tests, I also disconnected the exhaust pipe from the EGR, this emits white exhaust fumes (as does the exhaust).
• I did this as I am planning to check if the Catalyst is blocked next weekend when I have asistance to get the car on stands and loosen the front pipe where it joins the Catalyst.
• After trying to run it, there is some white wispy fumes rising from the inlets, which does resemble the exhaust fumes.

Here's a video of it, although not sure it's going to reveal much - M51 325 TDS Cutting Out Issue - YouTube

Thanks for your help so far, it's appreciated. I also welcome any additional input/suggestions.

Regards, Alex.

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Sorry to say this, but it does look as though engine has been turned backwards and the chains have jumped a couple of teeth. Or the quantity servo has failed and the ECU is shutting the engine down. You need diagnostics on it before you do anything else.

wammers said:

Sorry to say this, but it does look as though engine has been turned backwards and the chains have jumped a couple of teeth. Or the quantity servo has failed and the ECU is shutting the engine down. You need diagnostics on it before you do anything else.

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Thanks for your reply.

Not sure how likely it is i'll be able to get it onto diagnostics.

I'm assuming it's possible to check the timing by taking the timing covers etc. off? Also, assuming the timing has slipped, what is the risk of damage?

Thanks, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

Thanks for your reply.

Not sure how likely it is i'll be able to get it onto diagnostics.

I'm assuming it's possible to check the timing by taking the timing covers etc. off? Also, assuming the timing has slipped, what is the risk of damage?

Thanks, Alex.

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If anything has slipped it is likely to be the lower chain on the crank sprocket. That would put both injection and valve timing out. I strongly suggest diagnostics to rule out injection pump faults. If there are none recorded then the chain slipped is favourite and needs attending to, any further slip if that is what has happened could be very expensive to repair. Valves making love to pistons etc.

Just had the codes read, as follows:-

• 20 - Cruise Control Switch (I don't have cruise control)
• 54 - Boost Pressure Sensor
• 5 - Commencement of Delivery Sensor
• 41 - Glow Time Control

The codes were then reset and I started the engine before having the codes read again;

• 20 - Cruise Control Switch
• 41 - Glow Time Control

I don't know if it's significant that two codes didn't re-occur, could have been stored from when I tested with MAP sensor and the No.4 injector wire disconnected?

If the injection pump was at fault, should I expect to see specific faults for it?

Regards, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

Just had the codes read, as follows:-

• 20 - Cruise Control Switch (I don't have cruise control)
• 54 - Boost Pressure Sensor
• 5 - Commencement of Delivery Sensor
• 41 - Glow Time Control

The codes were then reset and I started the engine before having the codes read again;

• 20 - Cruise Control Switch
• 41 - Glow Time Control

I don't know if it's significant that two codes didn't re-occur.

If the injection pump was at fault, should I expect to see specific faults for it?

Regards, Alex.

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Not really, boost pressure sensor is MAP sensor. Delivery sensor is injector number four. Neither should cause what you have. You can't run live data so it's down to getting hands dirty i am afraid. Lock the engine at TDC look into or remove the cam cover and see where things are. If it has jumped a tooth or two the cam will be out. Cam should be sat flat at TDC.

wammers said:

Not really, boost pressure sensor is MAP sensor. Delivery sensor is injector number four. Neither should cause what you have. You can't run live data so it's down to getting hands dirty i am afraid. Lock the engine at TDC look into or remove the cam cover and see where things are. If it has jumped a tooth or two the cam will be out. Cam should be sat flat at TDC.

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Thanks for your reply, I did actually edit my post and add "could have been stored from when I tested with MAP sensor and the No.4 injector wire disconnected?" which I think you have anticipated in your response anyway

I was thinking today that it was a case of taking the cover off and having a look. I have the Range Rover manual with details for this engine and have skimmed a few sections about timing etc.

Are you able to confirm that I don't need the special timing tools to just take cover off and have a look? They are on eBay but about £100 for the set.

Regards, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

Thanks for your reply, I did actually edit my post and add "could have been stored from when I tested with MAP sensor and the No.4 injector wire disconnected?" which I think you have anticipated in your response anyway

I was thinking today that it was a case of taking the cover off and having a look. I have the Range Rover manual with details for this engine and have skimmed a few sections about timing etc.

Are you able to confirm that I don't need the special timing tools to just take cover off and have a look? They are on eBay but about £100 for the set.

Regards, Alex.

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All you need initially is a locking tool dimensions for that are in my EAS "How to". If the chains have slipped it is a big job and you will need timing tools. If you feel confident you can do it. Does need a bit of know how. You will need pump timing adaptor and DTI gauge for timing pump in addition to the timing tools available on Ebay. If it's the Sealey ones you are on about. They will enable you to change the chains and time the cam but not time the pump. Follow the instructions for tightening the crank pulley bolt to the letter or you may lose oil pump drive.

wammers said:

All you need initially is a locking tool dimensions for that are in my EAS "How to". If the chains have slipped it is a big job and you will need timing tools. If you feel confident you can do it. Does need a bit of know how. You will need pump timing adaptor and DTI gauge for timing pump in addition to the timing tools available on Ebay. If it's the Sealey ones you are on about. They will enable you to change the chains and time the cam but not time the pump. Follow the instructions for tightening the crank pulley bolt to the letter or you may lose oil pump drive.

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Thanks for the info. My brother has replaced the timing chains etc. on a ST24 Mondeo V6 so we will have a look and see what's going on.

I just tried searching for the dimensions of the locking pin but couldn't find anything, apologies but i'm not familiar with EAS? If you could point me towards it that would be appreciated.

Regards, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

Thanks for the info. My brother has replaced the timing chains etc. on a ST24 Mondeo V6 so we will have a look and see what's going on.

I just tried searching for the dimensions of the locking pin but couldn't find anything, apologies but i'm not familiar with EAS? If you could point me towards it that would be appreciated.

Regards, Alex.

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"How to" section is at top of page before you select a thread. Click on that then find my EAS thread it's listed there. Second sticky down.

I managed to get the cam cover off today with the engine locked at TDC for cylinder 1 (bought locking pin). Here are some photos:-



When I compare these to the manual and other photos of what it should look like (shallow V) it looks correct, perhaps slightly off due to chain wear. I don't know how different it would look if timing had jumped a tooth? Opinions welcome as now deciding what to do next.

Many thanks, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

I managed to get the cam cover off today with the engine locked at TDC for cylinder 1 (bought locking pin). Here are some photos:-



When I compare these to the manual and other photos of what it should look like (shallow V) it looks correct, perhaps slightly off due to chain wear. I don't know how different it would look if timing had jumped a tooth? Opinions welcome as now deciding what to do next.

Many thanks, Alex.

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Looks ok. If it had jumped a tooth both cam and pump would be out so you will have to look elsewhere.

wammers said:

Looks ok. If it had jumped a tooth both cam and pump would be out so you will have to look elsewhere.

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Thanks for the confirmation.

My next idea was to check the timing of the FIP, a dial gauge is fairly easy to source, but can you tell me if the adapter that screws into the FIP is nessecary or if it can be done without?

If that comes back OK, then it's a case of deciding whether it's worth buying the tools to take it off and get it tested (and repaired if it's at fault.)

Regards, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

Thanks for the confirmation.

My next idea was to check the timing of the FIP, a dial gauge is fairly easy to source, but can you tell me if the adapter that screws into the FIP is nessecary or if it can be done without?

If that comes back OK, then it's a case of deciding whether it's worth buying the tools to take it off and get it tested (and repaired if it's at fault.)

Regards, Alex.

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You need the adaptor to mount the DTI. Turn engine clockwise until first cam lob is vertical. Then remove blanking screw from pump and mount adaptor. Insert DTI with suitable probe attached and push DTI in until you get about 2 mm deflection on dial. Lock DTI in place. Turn engine clockwise until DTI stops dropping. Then set to zero. Continue turning engine and engage locking pin. Note deflection on DTI should be 0.90 mm. If not slightly slacken pump flange nuts and tap pump either way until that deflection is recorded. Note that last movement to achieve setting MUST be towards engine to take up slack in pump internals. Lock up pump flange nuts and engine is timed. If you have to remove pump you will need removal/holding tool or sprocket will be pulled out of place by tensioner and you won't get pump back in.

wammers said:

You need the adaptor to mount the DTI. Turn engine clockwise until first cam lob is vertical. Then remove blanking screw from pump and mount adaptor. Insert DTI with suitable probe attached and push DTI in until you get about 2 mm deflection on dial. Lock DTI in place. Turn engine clockwise until DTI stops dropping. Then set to zero. Continue turning engine and engage locking pin. Note deflection on DTI should be 0.90 mm. If not slightly slacken pump flange nuts and tap pump either way until that deflection is recorded. Note that last movement to achieve setting MUST be towards engine to take up slack in pump internals. Lock up pump flange nuts and engine is timed.

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Thanks, had just read this in the manual.

I see some adaptors for bosch pumps on eBay, is there anywhere you would recommend to source one?

Regards, Alex.

AJB2494 said:

Thanks, had just read this in the manual.

I see some adaptors for bosch pumps on eBay, is there anywhere you would recommend to source one?

Regards, Alex.

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They come up on Ebay from time to time for about £11.00 to £15.00 from UK it's the post from the US that is the killer. Think mine cost me about £15.00 all in but that was a few years ago.

Quick Update:

I've ordered a replacement refurbished pump and plan to be fitting it over the Xmas holidays. Hopefully it will resolve the issue, will let you know!

Regards, Alex.

Merry Christmas all

With the Mrs at work, today was a good day to begin removing my current injection pump following the RAVE manual.

Section 19 details this and I have got as far as item 15 "Remove end cap from auxiliary belt tensioner fulcrum", this is done with a hex key (17mm) which should remove the end cap, giving access to the bolt on the end of the injection pump shaft, however when I try to undo the cap, it turns but the whole fulcrum assembly begins to move away from the timing case. I realised this after a few turns when the cap wasn't moving clear.

Any ideas as to what is happening here?

Many thanks!