Lib Dems plan a =?iso-8859-1?Q?=A32,000?= road tax

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I

Ian Rawlings

Guest
Just in case some of you have missed it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm

At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
tax revenue has gone"...

Perhaps they should think about how much damage tree-hugging vehicles
do to bunnies given the huge amount of electronics and batteries in
hybrid cars. They actually seem to want to avoid people keeping old
cars and encourage them to buy new ones, it seems some people think
that cars grow on trees rather than get torn out of the ground, bits
shuffled halfway round the world several times, heated, cooled,
chemically treated etc etc etc. Almost everything we own came from
the ground at some point, and there's a lot of cost involved in
turning it from muck into a product.

Anyhow, sod them all, pinz is back on the road again! Bidding on the
landy has reached the dizzying heights of £1.50 so far.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
Ian Rawlings wrote:
> Just in case some of you have missed it.
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
>
> At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
> the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
> tax revenue has gone"...

and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
policy in is...???!

Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
image of the 4x4'er so much tho.

Matt
 
In message <[email protected]>
Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ian Rawlings wrote:
> > Just in case some of you have missed it.
> >
> > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
> >
> > At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
> > the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
> > tax revenue has gone"...
>
> and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
> policy in is...???!
>
> Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
> image of the 4x4'er so much tho.
>

It's all they can come up with to try and sound different from
the other Tory Party's. And they wonder why people won't go to
the polls.......

> Matt

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
Matthew Maddock wrote:
> Ian Rawlings wrote:
>
>> Just in case some of you have missed it.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
>>
>> At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
>> the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
>> tax revenue has gone"...
>
>
> and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
> policy in is...???!
>
> Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
> image of the 4x4'er so much tho.
>
> Matt
Absolutely lunatic, as all policies of the unelectable tend to be.
Can't remember where i read it, but i saw an article the other day about
the Prius. Apart from the fact that several people have road-tested it
at about half the claimed MPG, someone has now calculated that it takes
SIX times more energy to produce, maintian and dispose of than a proper
car!!
 
On 2006-05-18, John Moppett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Can't remember where i read it, but i saw an article the other day about
> the Prius. Apart from the fact that several people have road-tested it
> at about half the claimed MPG, someone has now calculated that it takes
> SIX times more energy to produce, maintian and dispose of than a proper
> car!!

Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest, buying a new car to be "green"
is totally nuts.

Given that pretty much anyone who works at a desk doesn't need to be
in the office (there are exceptions of course), perhaps all those
receptionists, call centre workers, accountants, managers, tech
support staff etc etc who don't do physical work should stay at home
and work from there. There are problems to overcome on that front,
but they're easier to solve than congestion and pollution.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-05-18, Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> wrote:

> Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
> image of the 4x4'er so much tho.

The problem with the 4x4 school brigade is that they don't have to
actually exist in order to cause an image problem, as I found out when
my neighbour complained about the school run and said "they're all in
4x4s of course". Given that I live outside the same school and see
the traffic, I can see that's total bollocks but it's true in the
mind's eye of so many.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 

"John Moppett" wrote
> Matthew Maddock wrote:
>> Ian Rawlings wrote:
>>
>>> Just in case some of you have missed it.
>>>
>>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
>>>
>>> At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
>>> the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
>>> tax revenue has gone"...
>>
>>
>> and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
>> policy in is...???!
>>
>> Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
>> image of the 4x4'er so much tho.
>>
>> Matt
> Absolutely lunatic, as all policies of the unelectable tend to be.
> Can't remember where i read it, but i saw an article the other day about
> the Prius. Apart from the fact that several people have road-tested it at
> about half the claimed MPG, someone has now calculated that it takes SIX
> times more energy to produce, maintian and dispose of than a proper car!!

Autocar did a recent road test and tested a number of cars on identical
roads, in the city, on the motorway, and on a track for fuel consumption.
The results were interesting and also showed the real world mpg against the
theoretical Gov figures....
Best "green" car first..
1. Toyota Aygo+ 1.4L Diesel. Av mpg 52.4
2. Toyota Prius T-Spirit. Av mpg 44.9
3. Smart Fortwo Grandstyle. Av mpg 45.3
4. Honda Civic Hybrid 1.4 IMA Av mpg 41.3
5. Ford Focus 1.8iFFV av mpg 26.4
6. Citroen C2 1.4i Stop & Start Av mpg 30.5
7. Saab 9-5 2.0t BioPower Av mpg 28.1
8. Lexus RX400h SE-L Av mpg 22.7
9. Range Rover Sport Supercharged Av mpg 12.9

The actual breakdown of the figures is interesting too.

--
Regards
Bob Hobden
17mls W. of London.UK





 
On Thu, 18 May 2006 17:17:13 +0100, Matthew Maddock
<[email protected]> scribbled the following
nonsense:

>Ian Rawlings wrote:
>> Just in case some of you have missed it.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
>>
>> At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
>> the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
>> tax revenue has gone"...
>
>and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
>policy in is...???!
>
>Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
>image of the 4x4'er so much tho.
>
>Matt

s'all right, some of our SMT at school suggested banning 4x4's from
entering the school gates, until we pointed that at least 4 of the
teaching staff would not come to school.......
--

Simon Isaacs

"Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote"
George Jean Nathan (1882-1955)

ROT13 me....
 
> Absolutely lunatic, as all policies of the unelectable tend to be.
> Can't remember where i read it, but i saw an article the other day about
> the Prius. Apart from the fact that several people have road-tested it
> at about half the claimed MPG, someone has now calculated that it takes
> SIX times more energy to produce, maintian and dispose of than a proper
> car!!

My grandfather has a Prius, after a year of ownership and telling us
how wonderful it is, he now admits that it gets 45mpg. 70% of his
driving is around town, in which I would expect it to run on the
battery all the time until it runs low enough to require the IC
engine to recharge the batteries. In reality (I have driven it) as
soon as you touch to accelerator it starts the engine to give drive,
and in my experience only switches off the engine when you are either
not accelerating, or when you hit the 'battery only' button - but even
that is a bit misleading because as soon as the battery discharges even
a little bit it runs the engine to charge it again. My Espace gets
better MPG than the Prius, and both my fathers and my sisters diesel
VW's easily get 50+MPG. I hammered my fathers Touran today and could
only get it down to 38.7, and that was with four adults and two
children in it going around town!

I don't know what Toyota were doing with the Prius, but as far as I
can tell it is a complete waste of time and money.

Matt
 

"Matthew Maddock" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Ian Rawlings wrote:
>> Just in case some of you have missed it.
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
>>
>> At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
>> the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
>> tax revenue has gone"...
>
> and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
> policy in is...???!
>
> Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
> image of the 4x4'er so much tho.
>
> Matt
ah but those are just the type of loons that vote Lib Dim hug a tree take
little darlings to school and park outside the school on the zigzags.
Derek


 
Bob Hobden wrote:
> "John Moppett" wrote
>
>>Matthew Maddock wrote:
>>
>>>Ian Rawlings wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Just in case some of you have missed it.
>>>>
>>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
>>>>
>>>>At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
>>>>the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
>>>>tax revenue has gone"...
>>>
>>>
>>>and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
>>>policy in is...???!
>>>
>>>Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
>>>image of the 4x4'er so much tho.
>>>
>>>Matt
>>
>>Absolutely lunatic, as all policies of the unelectable tend to be.
>>Can't remember where i read it, but i saw an article the other day about
>>the Prius. Apart from the fact that several people have road-tested it at
>>about half the claimed MPG, someone has now calculated that it takes SIX
>>times more energy to produce, maintian and dispose of than a proper car!!
>
>
> Autocar did a recent road test and tested a number of cars on identical
> roads, in the city, on the motorway, and on a track for fuel consumption.
> The results were interesting and also showed the real world mpg against the
> theoretical Gov figures....
> Best "green" car first..
> 1. Toyota Aygo+ 1.4L Diesel. Av mpg 52.4
> 2. Toyota Prius T-Spirit. Av mpg 44.9
> 3. Smart Fortwo Grandstyle. Av mpg 45.3
> 4. Honda Civic Hybrid 1.4 IMA Av mpg 41.3
> 5. Ford Focus 1.8iFFV av mpg 26.4
> 6. Citroen C2 1.4i Stop & Start Av mpg 30.5
> 7. Saab 9-5 2.0t BioPower Av mpg 28.1
> 8. Lexus RX400h SE-L Av mpg 22.7
> 9. Range Rover Sport Supercharged Av mpg 12.9
>
> The actual breakdown of the figures is interesting too.
>
Interesting figures. Apparently ,according to the on-board computer, my
wife's 1.9 TDi Doblo is as good as the matchbox Aygo?
 
John Moppett wrote:

> Bob Hobden wrote:
>> "John Moppett" wrote
>>
>>>Matthew Maddock wrote:
>>>
>>>>Ian Rawlings wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Just in case some of you have missed it.
>>>>>
>>>>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4992676.stm
>>>>>
>>>>>At least it only applies to new vehicles, but this does stink of "tax
>>>>>the rich to the hilt and watch them sod off and wonder where all our
>>>>>tax revenue has gone"...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>and the chance of them ever getting into Government to bring this
>>>>policy in is...???!
>>>>
>>>>Might put a halt to the 4x4 "school brigade" that has damaged the
>>>>image of the 4x4'er so much tho.
>>>>
>>>>Matt
>>>
>>>Absolutely lunatic, as all policies of the unelectable tend to be.
>>>Can't remember where i read it, but i saw an article the other day about
>>>the Prius. Apart from the fact that several people have road-tested it at
>>>about half the claimed MPG, someone has now calculated that it takes SIX
>>>times more energy to produce, maintian and dispose of than a proper car!!
>>
>>
>> Autocar did a recent road test and tested a number of cars on identical
>> roads, in the city, on the motorway, and on a track for fuel consumption.
>> The results were interesting and also showed the real world mpg against
>> the theoretical Gov figures....
>> Best "green" car first..
>> 1. Toyota Aygo+ 1.4L Diesel. Av mpg 52.4
>> 2. Toyota Prius T-Spirit. Av mpg 44.9
>> 3. Smart Fortwo Grandstyle. Av mpg 45.3
>> 4. Honda Civic Hybrid 1.4 IMA Av mpg 41.3
>> 5. Ford Focus 1.8iFFV av mpg 26.4
>> 6. Citroen C2 1.4i Stop & Start Av mpg 30.5
>> 7. Saab 9-5 2.0t BioPower Av mpg 28.1
>> 8. Lexus RX400h SE-L Av mpg 22.7
>> 9. Range Rover Sport Supercharged Av mpg 12.9
>>
>> The actual breakdown of the figures is interesting too.
>>
> Interesting figures. Apparently ,according to the on-board computer, my
> wife's 1.9 TDi Doblo is as good as the matchbox Aygo?

According to both the onboard computer and my fuel records, so is my 2.5 V6
Rover 75 - although that's only since it was LPGd and had the original air
filter ripped out and replaced with what looks like a K&N - and that milage
is on petrol - I get similar on gas - 55mpg round town - nice!

P.
 
On 2006-05-19, John Moppett <[email protected]> wrote:

> Interesting figures. Apparently ,according to the on-board computer, my
> wife's 1.9 TDi Doblo is as good as the matchbox Aygo?

Some time ago I looked at getting a Volkswagen Lupo 3L but they're not
available in this country. Real-world MPG figures of close to 100MPG
from a 3-cylinder diesel. Audi did a tiny car that was similar, also
not available in this country. The Lupo 3L gets about 68MPG in
exclusively town-based driving, which is impressive. It can be
out-accelerated by a Defender 300TDi though ;-)

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On Friday, in article <[email protected]>
[email protected] "Paul S. Brown" wrote:

> John Moppett wrote:
>
> > Interesting figures. Apparently ,according to the on-board computer, my
> > wife's 1.9 TDi Doblo is as good as the matchbox Aygo?
>
> According to both the onboard computer and my fuel records, so is my 2.5 V6
> Rover 75 - although that's only since it was LPGd and had the original air
> filter ripped out and replaced with what looks like a K&N - and that milage
> is on petrol - I get similar on gas - 55mpg round town - nice!

A good rough guide for comparisons is vehicle weight, perhaps more for
stop-start motoring than constant speed. And the differences between
55mph and 75mph are pretty big.

But engine types do matter, both sensible power-weight ratio and general
efficiency.

A lot of this can be masked by driving style. I know that I routinely
drove with better MPG figures from the 'puter than my father did.

Personally, I don't desire to drive along motorways at 100mph, but a car
that has the power and handling to safely sustain that speed is a lot
better at 70mph than a Smart with the engine running flat out. That
doesn't mean it has to be all that much bigger, but the design
optimisations are different.

For a while, 4x4s were the only car-like vehicles that had the features
needed by a larger family. There are alternatives now.


--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
 
In message <[email protected]>
[email protected] ("David G. Bell") wrote:

> On Friday, in article <[email protected]>
> [email protected] "Paul S. Brown" wrote:
>
> > John Moppett wrote:
> >
> > > Interesting figures. Apparently ,according to the on-board computer, my
> > > wife's 1.9 TDi Doblo is as good as the matchbox Aygo?
> >
> > According to both the onboard computer and my fuel records, so is my 2.5 V6
> > Rover 75 - although that's only since it was LPGd and had the original air
> > filter ripped out and replaced with what looks like a K&N - and that milage
> > is on petrol - I get similar on gas - 55mpg round town - nice!
>
> A good rough guide for comparisons is vehicle weight, perhaps more for
> stop-start motoring than constant speed. And the differences between
> 55mph and 75mph are pretty big.
>

When comparing like-for-like designs that is true, but aerodynaics
have to be taken into account when comparing differing designs. As
a rather radical example the power used to overcome drag (as a
percentage of fuel used) is way higher on a motorbike than a
family saloon - motorbikes are (surprisingly) terribly inefficient
at speed.

> But engine types do matter, both sensible power-weight ratio and general
> efficiency.

Agreed - an engine that is suitabe for off-road use is never going
to be as efficient, particularly at high speed, as one designed for
high speed from the outset. LR got a Queens Award for Technological
Achievement for going some way to wards resolving this with the
300Tdi.

>
> A lot of this can be masked by driving style. I know that I routinely
> drove with better MPG figures from the 'puter than my father did.
>

Tyre pressures can make the biggest difference on a "family saloon",
perhaps not so noticable on a Defender!

> Personally, I don't desire to drive along motorways at 100mph, but a car
> that has the power and handling to safely sustain that speed is a lot
> better at 70mph than a Smart with the engine running flat out. That
> doesn't mean it has to be all that much bigger, but the design
> optimisations are different.

As you say, it depends on the design of the engine - small engines
can be very efficient at high speed if that's the design goal (not
that that's much good in a car designed for going round town like
the Smart). I've often wondered what happened to the Japanese
research into ceramic engines in the 80's - they had tiny, very,
very high speed engines producing prodigious power but they
seem to have faded away.

>
> For a while, 4x4s were the only car-like vehicles that had the features
> needed by a larger family. There are alternatives now.
>

Sort of - the Espace concept was bought off Chrysler Europe and
put into production about the same time as 4x4's started being
used as Chelsea Tractors, but failed to become fashionable until
relative recently. Plus as they tend to be driven by the very
people who complain about 4x4's, they are not going to be looked
at very carfully. (See the post on this group about the Anti's
in Tesco's car park a few weeks back).

>

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
RISC-OS - Where have all the good guys gone?
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 

>>
>
>Tyre pressures can make the biggest difference on a "family saloon",
>perhaps not so noticable on a Defender!
>

It's a major cost factor for commercial vehicles too, especially given
how many tyres they have on the road.

I'd have thought that sidewall depth and tread width would be big
contributors, both higher on a Defender than an average Eurobox.

--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'03 Volvo V70
'06 Nissan Navara aka "The Truck"
 
beamendsltd wrote:

|| As a rather radical example the power used to overcome drag (as a
|| percentage of fuel used) is way higher on a motorbike than a
|| family saloon - motorbikes are (surprisingly) terribly inefficient
|| at speed.

Indeed - hence the way that even a modest sports bike will out-drag a
Ferrari up to about 80mph, but the car will sail past once over the ton,
however powerful the bike.

--
Rich
==============================

I don't approve of signatures, so I don't have one.


 
Matthew Maddock <[email protected]> uttered
summat worrerz funny about:
> My grandfather has a Prius, after a year of ownership and telling us
> how wonderful it is, he now admits that it gets 45mpg. 70% of his
> driving is around town, in which I would expect it to run on the
> battery all the time until it runs low enough to require the IC
> engine to recharge the batteries. In reality (I have driven it) as
> soon as you touch to accelerator it starts the engine to give drive,
> and in my experience only switches off the engine when you are either
> not accelerating, or when you hit the 'battery only' button - but even
> that is a bit misleading because as soon as the battery discharges
> even a little bit it runs the engine to charge it again. My Espace
> gets better MPG than the Prius, and both my fathers and my sisters
> diesel VW's easily get 50+MPG. I hammered my fathers Touran today
> and could only get it down to 38.7, and that was with four adults and
> two children in it going around town!
>
> I don't know what Toyota were doing with the Prius, but as far as I
> can tell it is a complete waste of time and money.
>
> Matt

Sounds like it would benifit from an LPG conversion ;-)

Lee D


 
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