IRD Fail???

Hey all!

I have been working on my land rover today.

For context I have a Freelander 1 1.8 petrol along with a 2.0 TD4 that has rust out of the wazoo so it is a donor parts car (Unable to pass MOT or reasonably be repaired).

However I think I have had a huge issue now... I've had a shaky prop for a while now and the VCU test I did failed as it just spun with no resistance at all, I was going to take the VCU out and send it to Bell engineering to ensure the VCU was okay, however upon removal of the prop I have no drive... The car will not go forward... or back... which means I have been in rear wheel drive this whole time and is likely a massive factor to the lack of power and no resistance VCU test, the shakiness was from the bearings which are being replaced.

Just a question for everyone, as the previous owner 100% drove this with a broken VCU is it likely the IRD has gone kaput? if so;

What is a likely repair?
Should I just replace the whole IRD?
Can I take the IRD from the TD4 that is only FWD so I know it works in that aspect and fit it to my petrol one?
Can I check the IRD?
Are there any other reasons for this? (Unlikely to be the clutch as I moved its parked spot to be closer to parts car, only happened once prop removed.)
If the IRD needs replacing and cannot use the TD4 one (I did check the part numbers for both VIN's are the same) should I go with 2nd hand or recon, I don't really want to purchase one from bell for 600... before! VAT



Any help would be massively appreciated!

If you remove the prop and have no drive then either the splines to the LH wheel have stripped of the diff has managed to break catastrophically - which would usually mean a shattered IRD case.

However, if the VCU spins with no resistance - it would not give drive to the rear wheels.

So something does not compute.

The 1.8 & TD4 IRDs are interchangeable.

GrumpyGel said:

If you remove the prop and have no drive then either the splines to the LH wheel have stripped of the diff has managed to break catastrophically - which would usually mean a shattered IRD case.

However, if the VCU spins with no resistance - it would not give drive to the rear wheels.

So something does not compute.

The 1.8 & TD4 IRDs are interchangeable.

Click to expand...

Thank you, now you mention it, there is a small oil leak on what I think is the front diff or the gearbox, honestly I go under this car and have no idea what I am looking at (It is the first box on the right when under the car, it looks like where the diff connects to the LH wheel driveshaft)

EDIT: When I say on the right, I mean when looking face on with the car, it is on the passenger side.

Assuming my young brain is right, being upside down and under the car this is the part leaking (Red line where it seals) :

Would that indicate the IRD needs replacing or the what I assume on the right side of the red line is the front diff for the LH wheel or do I need to take it out and actually check the LH driveshaft to check for damage

The most recent MOT did actually come back with:

Could this indicate a LH driveshaft fail? When I took a look, it seems like the boot has not deteriorated but instead has been ripped in a straight line across the whole thing.

Something is really throwing me off now haha, the one wheel up test provided a result of less than 2 seconds (Spins freely) but drive is only sent to the rear wheels...

Really appreciate everyone's help.

GrumpyGel said:

However, if the VCU spins with no resistance - it would not give drive to the rear wheels.

So something does not compute.

Click to expand...

The VCU test carried out was the OWU test. No IRD connection, test shows no resistance to rear wheel turning.

xDParis64 said:

Thank you, now you mention it, there is a small oil leak on what I think is the front diff or the gearbox, honestly I go under this car and have no idea what I am looking at (It is the first box on the right when under the car, it looks like where the diff connects to the LH wheel driveshaft)

Assuming my young brain is right, being upside down and under the car this is the part leaking (Red line where it seals) : View attachment 317235

Would that indicate the IRD needs replacing or the what I assume on the right side of the red line is the front diff for the LH wheel or do I need to take it out and actually check the LH driveshaft to check for damage

The most recent MOT did actually come back with: View attachment 317238

Could this indicate a LH driveshaft fail? When I took a look, it seems like the boot has not deteriorated but instead has been ripped in a straight line across the whole thing.

Something is really throwing me off now haha, the one wheel up test provided a result of less than 2 seconds (Spins freely) but drive is only sent to the rear wheels...

Really appreciate everyone's help.

Click to expand...

The pic you posted is the IRD. This pic shows the IRD on the hidden left face of that pic which is where it bolts to the gearbox...



You can see at the bottom left are 2 splined shafts - 1 that goes inside the other. The bigger shaft takes drive from the gearbox into the IRD.

On that shaft, there are a set of gears that drive the rear PTO that drives the rear axle. The shaft continues to a differential inside the IRD. The RH (drivers) drive shaft basically 'plugs' into the diff part of the IRD. The of the side of the diff driving the LH wheel is a shaft going back through the IRD and is the smaller inside splined shaft in the above pic.

A small oil leak does not indicate a fractured IRD case - you would see a fractured IRD case and it would dump all its oil immediately.

However, a broken CV joint would give the same symptoms as a broken diff, as a diff only drives the wheel with least resistance, and if 1 wheel has a broken CV it will never give drive to the other. So your IRD may be OK. Personally, I recon with the other damage it is likely to be very worn though.

With the rear props off, you could put the car in gear, lift the clutch and watch those 2 parts of the torn CV boot. If the side connected to the IRD turns, but the other does not, then the CV joint is broken. Be very careful doing this that you don't run over someone - maybe record it on a phone, then you can do it yourself.

With regards to the VCU giving no resistance, probably broken CV and...

andyfreelandy said:

The VCU test carried out was the OWU test. No IRD connection, test shows no resistance to rear wheel turning.

Click to expand...

When a 1 wheel up test is done, it tries to turn a rear wheel.

The rear wheel is directly connected to the IRD via the rear diff and props. Once into the IRD it is connected/geared to the shaft between gearbox and diff. So if the rear wheel turns, that shaft turns. When that shaft turns, it drives the diff - with both front wheels on the ground, the diff and that shaft will not turn. Hence it won't allow the props and wheel to turn. Any turn on the rear wheel is the VCU allowing slip, which it is designed to do and should take roughly 30 seconds to to the 1WUT - depending on bar and weight.

However, if the front driveshaft CV is broken, the diff will be allowed to turn, this will mean the rear wheel will turn quite freely and give you the impression that the VCU is spinning freely. You can check this by looking at the props - both will turn at the same speed. If the VCU really was free spinning, the front prop would stay still while the rear one turns.

However, it is not just the front wheels stopping the rear wheel from turning on a 1WUT. As stated, that shaft in the IRD is between gearbox and diff. So, I imaging you did your 1WUT in neutral. This would similarly allow free spinning of the transmission. If however, you put the car in gear, it will lock that shaft, so the rear wheel will not turn.

So, if you put the props back on, redo the 1WUT with the car in gear and I would imagine you will get a completely different result.

If the car has been driven RWD only (and that is not unheard of), you VCU will be completely toast. It will be completely seized up due to permanently putting all drive through it.

Ouch.

I just went out while we were discussing this to give this IRD a couple tests and it is bad news, or maybe good? I don't know, I think more disassembly is needed to determine full damage.

I read this forum > https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-ro...ts to check connectivity of yer transmission:

Where Hippo describes how to check the trans.

I performed this, I had the engine off and the LH wheel in the air, in neutral it spins... happy days, in gear? it spins... not happy days (Happens to both front wheels individually). So I got both wheels up and they spin separately to each other they do not counter spin, testing this on my TD4 shows they do counter spin, however with both front wheels up I turn the engine on put in gear and lift the clutch, you can hear a faint but horrendous noise coming from the LH Driveshaft which would indicate that the LH driveshaft is completely toast?

In the coming days I am going to check the IRD oil and see how that is, which oil do I need to put back in? is there a guide to change the oil, I have no idea where the filler plug is and will need to identify which tools/ replacement parts I may need.

Likely, this weekend I will take the LH Driveshaft out and check for damage, however listening to that noise I am not hopeful. (is the TD4 Driveshaft the same? I think so?)

When it comes to removing the IRD is this difficult? I can assume that it is very heavy so would be best to have a jack supporting it while taking it out I have the Haynes manual for it, would it be an idea to follow what that says to remove it or is there a better guide here?

GrumpyGel said:

If the car has been driven RWD only (and that is not unheard of), you VCU will be completely toast. It will be completely seized up due to permanently putting all drive through it.

Click to expand...

Being completely unaware that this was RWD as opposed to 4x4 I can say without doing the test (I will perform this test this weekend, in gear this time!) the VCU is completely toast however I was going to send it to bell to be tested so might just not do that and send it for a recon model, will need to look into getting the VCU off the prop somehow need to for the bearings anyway.

Just a few questions to go last, would it be worth while I have the IRD out of the car if it is okay to completely redo it? you know take out all the gears and bearings and de-grease them and re-install with grease and assembly lube where needed as the TD4 has 200k miles but my 1.8 only has 87k so if I could interchange gears from this and that IRD to keep my low milage IRD then that would be ideal.

Thank you so much to all and GG for helping, I will update here once I change the IRD oil and perform the tests.

If the front drive is fecked, then it does sound like the VCU is working ok. I would just take the VCU off & bench test it. Clamp one side in vice & turn the other with a pry bar.

I think you may have great difficulty removing the driveshaft as it is.

The hub nut is tightened to a huge amount of newton whatzits. To undo it, you need a breaker bar with a scaffold pole sized extension - and then possibly use the engine to turn the driveshaft against it!

You have to undo it from a driveshaft that is not secured - ie not locked by being connected to the transmission. You will need to find some way of holding the driveshaft while you struggle to undo the hubnut.

I hope for you that someone will tell you I got that completely wrong.

If you are going to rebuild the IRD, it doesn't really matter how many miles its done. You'll probably be replacing all the bearings. You will try and reuse the existing gears, so I suppose they would wear with use. I said earlier that the IRD is probably in a poor way if the drive shaft is fecked, but that's not necessarily true. Give the output pinion a wiggle - shouldn't be any lateral movement, but some rotational movement is fine. As you say, check the oil as well. Drain is underneath and fill is in front of you if you look at if from behind. Open the fill nut FIRST with a tight fitting 6 sided socket as they are made from something unbelievably soft. Forget what spec the oil is - it'll be on here on a search.

If you need a rebuild kit (bearings, seals & cooler) I got mine from these people...


I got a workshop to fit the bearings and they said some seals were missing, but my car's been running fine for over a decade on it - all be it 2WD.

GrumpyGel said:

The hub nut is tightened to a huge amount of newton whatzits

Click to expand...

Yeah I took a look and it is 400nm but you make a really good point, if the driveshaft is not connected then how the feck am I gonna apply 400nm or more to the nut without it spinning? The engine doesn't even provide 400nm of torque, wish me luck

Will probably try using a combination of jacj stands and sheer will, would there be other ways around it?

Remove the centre cap on the wheel & with wheel on the ground. Then make sure your socket goes through, use either long breaker bar of decent ratchet gun. I span the hub nuts off my son's FL1 TD4 easily with my DeWalt 18V 1/2" impact.

pwood999 said:

Remove the centre cap on the wheel & with wheel on the ground. Then make sure your socket goes through, use either long breaker bar of decent ratchet gun. I span the hub nuts off my son's FL1 TD4 easily with my DeWalt 18V 1/2" impact.

Click to expand...

As pwood said, had to do this with my rear wheels as handbrake wouldn't hold the wheels tight enough (no prop shaft on mine). Wheel on ground fully no jacks or stands!

Wizard2003 said:

As pwood said, had to do this with my rear wheels as handbrake wouldn't hold the wheels tight enough (no prop shaft on mine). Wheel on ground fully no jacks or stands!

Click to expand...

pwood999 said:

Remove the centre cap on the wheel & with wheel on the ground. Then make sure your socket goes through, use either long breaker bar of decent ratchet gun. I span the hub nuts off my son's FL1 TD4 easily with my DeWalt 18V 1/2" impact.

Click to expand...

That actually makes a lot of sense, will ensure I crack it with the car down and then do the rest of it off the floor Gonna get a 2ft Breaker bar and attached my jack stand pole to it for about 4-5 ft of breaker bar, should be plenty to get this nut off.

Make sure you open the locking tab first on the nut !!!

andyfreelandy said:

Make sure you open the locking tab first on the nut !!!

Click to expand...

Chisel and a hammer ought to get that tab out the way right?

xDParis64 said:

Chisel and a hammer ought to get that tab out the way right?

Click to expand...

Just a decent flat head screwdriver would suffice. The tab isn't that strong.

Similar "on the ground" applies to wheelnuts (until I got my DeWalt) !! I've always laughed at people that jack the car first & then try to loosen them with the usual car wheel wrench.

This is the one I have . . . . bit of an animal, but really useful. Good for over-tight or rusted chassis & suspension stuff as well.

So...

Wasn't this fun.

I spent this weekend, getting dripped on by oil, coolant and dirt, but I guess I do this because I enjoy it, however I took the IRD out, took the diff cover off it and it was fine???? All the gears are good, it actually looks, really really good, oil was super clear, no metal chunks on the oil drain plug, shavings? yes, but that I think is normal.

So why does it not have drive?

Well while the subframe was out and gearbox was super easy to get to, I tested it, where in neutral I can turn the splines that go into the large splines on the IRD and the little splines... I can turn the gearbox splines in neutral, so with the engine off and in first gear, I cannot turn the Larger splines in the gearbox BUT I can turn the smaller splines in the gearbox, which is bad, and when I do this It is supper crunchy and bumpy, I would assume this is where the front drive fails as it is the path of least resistance, but the rears will move as the larger splines do work.

I would assume this means I need a new gearbox or need a new gear for the gearbox but honestly I am not sure.

The CV Axles actually looked really good and the UJ's looked good too, along with the IRD splines and everything, other than that crunchy gear in the gearbox (You could feel the CV Axle bump up and over (A gear tooth) while putting it in and spinning the CV Axle)

So I suppose a few questions.

Can I take the Gearbox from the TD4? (I don't think so)
Would it be repairable? (replacing the gear in question)
If the IRD and gearbox ratio's are better in the TD4 can I swap the gearbox and IRD together to get this fixed

If anyone has any advice please let me know!

First up - you can not swap gearboxes between TD4 and K Series - they are totally different gearboxes and bell housings, clutch, ratios etc That is a non starter.

I presume you poked something down to the splines having removed the IRD.

The small splines are a shaft that is splined on the other end to accept the drive shaft. If you can turn those splines, all-be-it crunchy, and the wheel does not turn - then either the CV is broken, or the splines where that shaft joins the drive shaft are stripped.

I suppose technically it passes within the housing that is the gearbox - but it has nothing to do with the gears or final drive reduction gears.

Yeah I did not think I could swap the gearboxes

Either way, the CV seemed fine, I checked both sides to make sure, all splines are good none are sheared I am not sure where the issue lays, when I get home from work I will upload some images and videos of the issues may clear up some communication issues.

Thank you though!