Hill descent

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Erik-Jan Geniets wrote:

>> DAFs


> And it even has the Hill Descent (snow/ice) button on the dash.


Did it? Mine didn't. I got it in 1977 from my late father-in-law, one
of the last two banders before Volvo gobbled them up and went
single band.

nigelH


 


Nigel Hewitt wrote:

>
> > And it even has the Hill Descent (snow/ice) button on the dash.

>
> Did it? Mine didn't. I got it in 1977 from my late father-in-law, one
> of the last two banders before Volvo gobbled them up and went
> single band.


Maybe not all.
My mother had a 33 Marathon.
Maybe it made a difference in those days. 70's
Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 

"Jeremy Mortimer" <[email protected]_this.org> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I recently read (I think it was in an article on the Difflock site on
> driving in winter, but I can't find it now) that if one wheel loses grip
> while descending a hill using engine braking with the diffs unlocked, the
> vehicle can run away.
>
> Is this true? I'm getting a headache trying to work out the effect of
> differentials in this situation. Can someone more mechanically minded than
> me explain?
>
> Jeremy


Man there is a load of stuff in this string with some of it going in circles
and disappearing up its own rear end :)

The fact is that the diff which can be locked on a LR is the centre diff. If
it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger that the front
and rear axles will operate at different speeds as would be the case with an
open axle diff in slippery conditions. If this happens on a slippery
downhill condition then it is obvious that a serious situation can occur
with the vehicle spinning totally out of control.

The Land Rover HDC [hill descent control] can result in an early loss of
traction in my experience and it is a mercy that LR, in its wisdom, have
opted to have the system switched off by default. The Mercedes ML has it
switched on permanently and it can catch out the unwary on steep downhill
grades on sappy grass to a dangerous degree.

Huw


 

"Disco Duck" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 06:13:18 -0600, hugh wrote
> (in article <[email protected]>):
>
>> In message <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles
>> <[email protected]> writes
>>> On or around Wed, 26 Jan 2005 08:33:33 GMT, Jeremy Mortimer
>>> <[email protected]_this.org> enlightened us thusly:
>>>
>>>> I recently read (I think it was in an article on the Difflock site on
>>>> driving in winter, but I can't find it now) that if one wheel loses
>>>> grip
>>>> while descending a hill using engine braking with the diffs unlocked,
>>>> the
>>>> vehicle can run away.
>>>>
>>>> Is this true? I'm getting a headache trying to work out the effect of
>>>> differentials in this situation. Can someone more mechanically minded
>>>> than
>>>> me explain?
>>>
>>> with all the diffs unlocked, 1 wheel losing grip can lose you all the
>>> drive,
>>> and also all the engine braking.
>>>
>>> with the centre diff locked, one wheel on each axle has to turn. It's
>>> still
>>> possible to get stuck and still possible to slide on downhills, but at
>>> least
>>> 2 wheels will grip, or looking at it another way, 2 wheels have to lose
>>> grip
>>> for it to stop going forwards. This is why the "cross-axle" situation
>>> stops
>>> you going anywhere - one front wheel and the opposite rear wheel are
>>> unloaded, and don't grip.
>>>
>>> adding a rear locking diff means, when it's locked, that both rear
>>> wheels
>>> and one front wheel have to turn. Thus 3 wheels have to lose grip to
>>> stop
>>> you.
>>>
>>>
>>> diff lock shouldn't be used in grippy situations. In slippery
>>> conditions,
>>> engage diff lock, especially for climbing or descending. If the
>>> slipperyness is intermittent, make sure you disengage it again
>>> afterwards.
>>>
>>> finally, downhill on ice, you've 2 tons of steel and nothing's really
>>> gonna
>>> make much odds - you just have to keep it lined up and hope that the ice
>>> finishes before you run out of road... diff lock might give you a
>>> slight
>>> advantage.

>> Diff lock shouldn't be used on tarmac/concrete or similar surfaces but
>> should be engaged when off metalled roads - be prepared for the
>> unexpected!!
>>
>> Also remember when descending if you do start to slide then use your
>> right foot and accelerate down the hill until traction is regained.
>>
>> Whatever you do don't lock up the brakes.
>>

>
> Ok, here are a couple of things I got from two land rover guys who were in
> the Camel GT.
> 1.In low traction low speed situations, Keep your foot lightly on the
> brake.
> This keeps everything tight and acts almost like a traction control
> device.
> I have also been told to just lightly tap the brake.


It may well keep the wheels on one axle to turn together by stopping one
speeding up at the other's expense.



> 2. Also in reduced traction circumstances like a heavy rain the center
> diff
> can be locked when you are going mostly straight. The long curves on the
> interstates are straight enough. And keep the tire pressures all the same.
> This is easier on the differential.


The centre diff should never be locked at normal road speed on metalled
roads. A wet road is no justification. Neither is a slippery road if it has
bends. The centre diff should only be locked when there is a possibility
that traction could be lost at relitively low speed.

Huw




>
> Any hints about driving on ice are appreciated. Dallas rarely gets snow.
> It
> does get some very bad ice storms. Last time we had ice on the road I was
> driving a honda insight. Two seater hybrid. I tried to stop at five MPH
> and
> went into a slide. I am just a little bit worried about driving the
> Discovery
> because of the weight.
>
> I have been reading that some times are better in the ice than others. The
> real hard compound high milage tires getting very glassy in cold weather.
> There is also a rating other than the Mud +Snow on the side of the tire
> which
> is a snowflake on a mountain. It might just be U.S. though.
>
>
> http://www.tirerack.com/winter/tech/severe.jsp
>
> Most of the people I have talked to with full locking rear differentials
> say
> the vehicle is hard to hand on snow and ice.
>
> Hud
>
> 96 Discovery
>



 
> The fact is that the diff which can be locked on a LR is the centre diff. If
> it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger that the front
> and rear axles will operate at different speeds as would be the case with an
> open axle diff in slippery conditions. If this happens on a slippery
> downhill condition then it is obvious that a serious situation can occur
> with the vehicle spinning totally out of control.


Sorry - pure fantasy!

 

"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, Erik-Jan Geniets
> <[email protected]> writes
>>
>>
>>Austin Shackles wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> with the centre diff locked, one wheel on each axle has to turn. It's
>>> still
>>> possible to get stuck and still possible to slide on downhills, but at
>>> least
>>> 2 wheels will grip, or looking at it another way, 2 wheels have to lose
>>> grip
>>> for it to stop going forwards. This is why the "cross-axle" situation
>>> stops
>>> you going anywhere - one front wheel and the opposite rear wheel are
>>> unloaded, and don't grip.
>>>
>>> adding a rear locking diff means, when it's locked, that both rear
>>> wheels
>>> and one front wheel have to turn. Thus 3 wheels have to lose grip to
>>> stop
>>> you.
>>>

>>
>>When descending slippery roads be aware that locked diffs can get you
>>into trouble.
>>Especially in corners where at least one but maybe all the wheels will
>>not turn at the appropriate speed. So you will loose control and end up
>>off-road.
>>Which is maybe where you want to be but not initiated by the car.
>>4WD with all diffs open would be the best solution here. You do not need
>>the locks to get traction. Gravity will help you here.
>>Realise that part-time 4WD's with a T-case do not have this option.
>>Kind regards,
>>Erik-Jan.
>>

> Locking a front diff on tarmac is asking for trouble. You will simply lose
> all steering - even with power assistance you will not turn the wheels -
> believe me I've been there.!! Locking a rear diff will put sever stress on
> your rear drive train in corners if the wheels grip.
> Similarly locking centre diff will put sever strain on the drive train if
> the wheels have grip and can easily lead to breakage. In my case the
> centre diff was still engaged even though the light was out (Defender).
> Having KAMM diff locks with strengthened half shafts the hub bolts on the
> rear left half shaft sheared off.



I have centre, rear and front diff locks fitted to my Land Cruiser. Both
rear and especially the front are fairly useless and I would not waste a
single penny having either fitted unless you intend hitching a plough to the
back and intend to plough with one side in the furrow in greasy conditions.

Huw


 

"Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>> The fact is that the diff which can be locked on a LR is the centre diff.
>> If it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger that the
>> front and rear axles will operate at different speeds as would be the
>> case with an open axle diff in slippery conditions. If this happens on a
>> slippery downhill condition then it is obvious that a serious situation
>> can occur with the vehicle spinning totally out of control.

>
> Sorry - pure fantasy!
>


Which is fantasy? Take each point in turn please.

1. The fact is that the diff which can be locked on a LR is the centre
diff

2. If it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger that
the front and rear axles will operate at different speeds

3. If this happens on a slippery downhill condition then it is obvious
that a serious situation can occur with the vehicle spinning totally out of
control.


I await your explanation of 'fantasy' with baited breath :)

Huw


 

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>> The fact is that the diff which can be locked on a LR is the centre
>>> diff. If it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger
>>> that the front and rear axles will operate at different speeds as would
>>> be the case with an open axle diff in slippery conditions. If this
>>> happens on a slippery downhill condition then it is obvious that a
>>> serious situation can occur with the vehicle spinning totally out of
>>> control.

>>
>> Sorry - pure fantasy!
>>

>
> Which is fantasy? Take each point in turn please.
>


I'm choking here Dougal!!!!!! C...Cough....S.....splutter.

Huw


 
In message <[email protected]>, Erik-Jan Geniets
<[email protected]> writes
>
>
>hugh wrote:
>
>> >

>> Best vehicle I ever drove on snow was a Daf with its rubber belt
>> constantly variable transmissions ratios. The rear wheels could be
>> simultaneously in totally different ratios according to whether they
>> were gripping or not.

>
>And it even has the Hill Descent (snow/ice) button on the dash.
>Kind regards,
>Erik-Jan.

Indeed it did, I'd forgotten about that, probably cos it never worked on
mine.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 
In message <[email protected]>, Erik-Jan Geniets
<[email protected]> writes
>
>
>Nigel Hewitt wrote:
>
>>
>> > And it even has the Hill Descent (snow/ice) button on the dash.

>>
>> Did it? Mine didn't. I got it in 1977 from my late father-in-law, one
>> of the last two banders before Volvo gobbled them up and went
>> single band.

>
>Maybe not all.
>My mother had a 33 Marathon.
>Maybe it made a difference in those days. 70's
>Kind regards,
>Erik-Jan.

We had a 44, 1970 also IIRC.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 
In message <[email protected]>, Nigel Hewitt
<[email protected]> writes
>Erik-Jan Geniets wrote:
>
>>> DAFs

>
>> And it even has the Hill Descent (snow/ice) button on the dash.

>
>Did it? Mine didn't. I got it in 1977 from my late father-in-law, one
>of the last two banders before Volvo gobbled them up and went
>single band.
>
>nigelH
>
>

It was actually a low ration button which operated on the front pulleys
IIRC leaving the rears to operate normally. Hill Descent hadn't been
dreamt up then, bull**** was still in its infancy,
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 
In message <[email protected]>, Huw
<hedydd@[nospam].invalid> writes
>
>"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> In message <[email protected]>, Erik-Jan Geniets
>> <[email protected]> writes
>>>
>>>
>>>Austin Shackles wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> with the centre diff locked, one wheel on each axle has to turn. It's
>>>> still
>>>> possible to get stuck and still possible to slide on downhills, but at
>>>> least
>>>> 2 wheels will grip, or looking at it another way, 2 wheels have to lose
>>>> grip
>>>> for it to stop going forwards. This is why the "cross-axle" situation
>>>> stops
>>>> you going anywhere - one front wheel and the opposite rear wheel are
>>>> unloaded, and don't grip.
>>>>
>>>> adding a rear locking diff means, when it's locked, that both rear
>>>> wheels
>>>> and one front wheel have to turn. Thus 3 wheels have to lose grip to
>>>> stop
>>>> you.
>>>>
>>>
>>>When descending slippery roads be aware that locked diffs can get you
>>>into trouble.
>>>Especially in corners where at least one but maybe all the wheels will
>>>not turn at the appropriate speed. So you will loose control and end up
>>>off-road.
>>>Which is maybe where you want to be but not initiated by the car.
>>>4WD with all diffs open would be the best solution here. You do not need
>>>the locks to get traction. Gravity will help you here.
>>>Realise that part-time 4WD's with a T-case do not have this option.
>>>Kind regards,
>>>Erik-Jan.
>>>

>> Locking a front diff on tarmac is asking for trouble. You will simply lose
>> all steering - even with power assistance you will not turn the wheels -
>> believe me I've been there.!! Locking a rear diff will put sever stress on
>> your rear drive train in corners if the wheels grip.
>> Similarly locking centre diff will put sever strain on the drive train if
>> the wheels have grip and can easily lead to breakage. In my case the
>> centre diff was still engaged even though the light was out (Defender).
>> Having KAMM diff locks with strengthened half shafts the hub bolts on the
>> rear left half shaft sheared off.

>
>
>I have centre, rear and front diff locks fitted to my Land Cruiser. Both
>rear and especially the front are fairly useless and I would not waste a
>single penny having either fitted unless you intend hitching a plough to the
>back and intend to plough with one side in the furrow in greasy conditions.
>
>Huw
>
>

Not sure I follow your reasoning. On the one hand you consider them
useless on the other hand you say they would pull a plough in conditions
in which most 4x4 would be stuck solo. I found them very effective, in
mud, and with 2 wheels in a rut. The rears were also very useful
climbing, not so much the fronts because of the weight transfer off the
front wheels and onto the rears.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 

"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, Huw <hedydd@[nospam].invalid>
> writes
>>
>>"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
>>news:[email protected]...
>>> In message <[email protected]>, Erik-Jan Geniets
>>> <[email protected]> writes
>>>>
>>>>

>>
>>I have centre, rear and front diff locks fitted to my Land Cruiser. Both
>>rear and especially the front are fairly useless and I would not waste a
>>single penny having either fitted unless you intend hitching a plough to
>>the
>>back and intend to plough with one side in the furrow in greasy
>>conditions.
>>
>>Huw
>>
>>

> Not sure I follow your reasoning. On the one hand you consider them
> useless on the other hand you say they would pull a plough in conditions
> in which most 4x4 would be stuck solo.


Only on a tractor with deep lugs on its tyres.



I found them very effective, in
> mud, and with 2 wheels in a rut. The rears were also very useful climbing,
> not so much the fronts because of the weight transfer off the front wheels
> and onto the rears.



I find the rear diff lock useful only for slow rock crawling. Useless in mud
because the traction limit for one wheels is so near the traction limit of
the other. I've never found them to take me more than a few inches further
than with an open axle diff. Of course if you actually were ploughing in
greasy conditions you would know that one side of the tractor works in the
furrow which is a high traction side while the other side works on the loose
greasy surface. This is unusual for a 4x4 and is the reason LR have never
offered an axle diff lock. It provides so little advantage in this kind of
vehicle.

The front diff lock is even less value.

Oh, but one can always find the once-in-a-while moment where the axle
diff-lock provides an advantage to justify its existence but I use my many
vehicles offroad more than most and my main daily drive has three diff
locks; one is essential while I have never found the others more than
expensive toys *in this type of vehicle*.

Huw


 
In message <[email protected]>, Huw
<hedydd@[nospam].invalid> writes
> This is unusual for a 4x4 and is the reason LR have never
>offered an axle diff lock. It provides so little advantage in this kind of
>vehicle.

See Disco III spec. Perhaps LR have now realised the error of their
ways.

But perhaps we'll just have to agree to differ.
--
hugh
Reply to address is valid at the time of posting
 

"hugh" <hugh@[127.0.0.1]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>, Huw <hedydd@[nospam].invalid>
> writes
>> This is unusual for a 4x4 and is the reason LR have never
>>offered an axle diff lock. It provides so little advantage in this kind of
>>vehicle.

> See Disco III spec. Perhaps LR have now realised the error of their ways.
>


Disco III has high sales expectations in America where rock crawling is much
more prevelent than in Europe. In conditions of slow driving with high axle
articulation with high traction, the axle diff lock is far superior to
traction control or open diffs. This is not a situation that you find much
in the UK and I would not expect more than a very small minority of owners
to specify this option. Certainly not business users who use these things in
anger, like farmers.
Recreational users have different priorities and can generally find
justification for wasting their disposable income.



> But perhaps we'll just have to agree to differ.


Probably yes. I don't give tuppence for axle diff-locks and I drive one
every day as well as many other vehicles, some with electronic traction
control and others with LSD's. Frankly none offer a significant advantage
over traction control which I find more useful than axle diff lock, which I
find crude and ineffective for this type of vehicle. For my many tractors
and plant equipment then diff-locks have varying degrees of usefulness.
Front and rear diff-locks are most useful for tractors engaged in heavy
draught work where they are commonly automatically controlled or managed.

Huw


 


Huw wrote:

>
> Which is fantasy? Take each point in turn please.
>
> 1. The fact is that the diff which can be locked on a LR is the centre
> diff


Not all LR's have this option. Correct me when wrong.


> 2. If it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger that
> the front and rear axles will operate at different speeds


Hardly. If a car is moving the front as well as te rear axles operate at
an almost equal speed. (Almost equal is of-course different but just
slightly)

> 3. If this happens on a slippery downhill condition then it is obvious
> that a serious situation can occur with the vehicle spinning totally out of
> control.


Don't know.

Kind regards,
Erik-Jan.
 

"Erik-Jan Geniets" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
>
> Huw wrote:
>
>>
>> Which is fantasy? Take each point in turn please.
>>
>> 1. The fact is that the diff which can be locked on a LR is the centre
>> diff

>
> Not all LR's have this option. Correct me when wrong.


Full time four wheel drive LR's mostly have selectable centre diff lock. The
ones that do not are Range Rover since late 1988 which have an automatically
managed viscous centre diff and modern vehicles with electronic traction
control, although newer versions of Defender and DiscoII with traction
control may well have the diff lock reinstated by the owner or latterly by
the factory even with HDC which regulates the speed of each wheel
individually. The HDC needs to be switched on to work and frankly it is not
an ideal system, which is why the centre diff lock has been reintroduced.



>
>
>> 2. If it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger
>> that
>> the front and rear axles will operate at different speeds

>
> Hardly. If a car is moving the front as well as te rear axles operate at
> an almost equal speed. (Almost equal is of-course different but just
> slightly)


You have obviously not encountered the conditions I have on a fairly regular
basis where traction is lost downhill. If one axle has more grip than the
other but nevertheless loses traction to at least one of the high torque
wheels [the front going down hill] then the two axles can and do act in the
same way as two wheels on the same axle in that one axle can turn much
faster than the other. This can result in a sudden loss of control with the
rear end overtaking the front and the vehicle spinning out of control. This
is very commonly known about and is a fundemental safety issue that no
driver of such a vehicle should be ignorant of.




>
>> 3. If this happens on a slippery downhill condition then it is obvious
>> that a serious situation can occur with the vehicle spinning totally out
>> of
>> control.

>
> Don't know.
>


Well now you do and, if you think about it, the logic is impeccable and you
will have no excuse if it happens! There are those that play with vehicles
and there are those that depend on them, often for their life. It continues
to amaze me that drivers do not endeavour to know how their vehicles work in
order to get the best out of them on and off road. The safety of themselves,
their passengers and bystanders depends on it.

Huw


 

"Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>


>>
>> Hardly. If a car is moving the front as well as te rear axles operate at
>> an almost equal speed. (Almost equal is of-course different but just
>> slightly)

>
> You have obviously not encountered the conditions I have on a fairly
> regular basis where traction is lost downhill. If one axle has more grip
> than the other but nevertheless loses traction to at least one of the high
> torque wheels [the front going down hill] then the two axles can and do
> act in the same way as two wheels on the same axle in that one axle can
> turn much faster than the other. This can result in a sudden loss of
> control with the rear end overtaking the front and the vehicle spinning
> out of control. This is very commonly known about and is a fundemental
> safety issue that no driver of such a vehicle should be ignorant of.
>
>


I would like to add to this and ask you to imagine the rear axle [with the
centre diff open and in extreme downhill] actually losing traction on both
wheels. In this situation what do you think can happen? I'll tell you. With
the centre diff open the front axle can gain speed at the expense of the
rear which has lost it. The fact that the rear has no traction allows the
front to accelerate with no resistance to the point that the rear pinion
shaft can reverse direction in the same way that a single axle can have one
wheel turn forwards and one backwards in a similar and perhaps parallel [or
even simultaneous] situation. In fact in this situation it is normal for one
rear wheel to turn in the wrong direction while the front wheels seem to
gain speed with the vehicle speed and cease to hold back. It is the rear
wheels, one of which turns at ground speed while the other reverses
direction, that causes the typical pirouetting where the rear comes around.
In summary, with an open diff and in extreme traction conditions then the
propshafts that connect the front and rear axles can be seen to behave
similarly to a single axle where one halfshaft turns faster than the other.
If this happens front to back and side to side then it spells trouble which
is why open centre diff vehicles ALWAYS have some kind of control fitted.
For control and safety.

Huw


 
On or around Sat, 29 Jan 2005 23:07:25 -0000, "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>I find the rear diff lock useful only for slow rock crawling. Useless in mud
>because the traction limit for one wheels is so near the traction limit of
>the other. I've never found them to take me more than a few inches further
>than with an open axle diff.


the particularly useful one is the centre diff, for when you're on steep
slopes, but a corss-axle one in the rear, especially, will reduce the loss
of traction caused by uneven ground and cross-axling, notably when climbing
too. On a steep climb, the front wheels have little weight on 'em and
therefore little grip, so front axle locker is of limited value as you say.

In deep (relatively level) mud, then yer difflocks are going to make a
marginal difference as you say. Observing some of the guys trying a tricky
ascent at Pontardawe, what was causing them to fail was holes in the ground
making one back wheel lose traction just about at the critical point where
momentum has to change to grip.

The sierra, with it's viscous diffs rear and centre, is very much more
capable than it appears as though it should be on slippery stuff, mind.
Once, following a FWD escort van up an icy hill - van came to a stop, with
wheelspin. Van-bloke then left it in 1st, engine idling, and got out to
push (nice, these diesel engines). I thought this merited my helping him -
so I stopped mine, put the handbrake on, went to get out and realised that
with the back wheels only locked by the handbrake, it was sliding backwards.
Put one back wheel on the grass verge, and it stopped. Went and helped push
van-man, van started to move again and in he jumped and off he went. Got
back in mine, and it pulled off up the hill with nary a murmur.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"The great masses of the people ... will more easily fall victims to
a great lie than to a small one" Adolf Hitler (1889 - 1945)
from Mein Kampf, Ch 10
 


Huw wrote:

>
> Full time four wheel drive LR's mostly have selectable centre diff lock. The
> ones that do not are Range Rover since late 1988 which have an automatically
> managed viscous centre diff and modern vehicles with electronic traction
> control, although newer versions of Defender and DiscoII with traction
> control may well have the diff lock reinstated by the owner or latterly by
> the factory even with HDC which regulates the speed of each wheel
> individually. The HDC needs to be switched on to work and frankly it is not
> an ideal system, which is why the centre diff lock has been reintroduced.
>
> >
> >
> >> 2. If it is not locked in certain conditions there is a real danger
> >> that
> >> the front and rear axles will operate at different speeds

> >
> > Hardly. If a car is moving the front as well as te rear axles operate at
> > an almost equal speed. (Almost equal is of-course different but just
> > slightly)

>
> You have obviously not encountered the conditions I have on a fairly regular
> basis where traction is lost downhill. If one axle has more grip than the
> other but nevertheless loses traction to at least one of the high torque
> wheels [the front going down hill] then the two axles can and do act in the
> same way as two wheels on the same axle in that one axle can turn much
> faster than the other. This can result in a sudden loss of control with the
> rear end overtaking the front and the vehicle spinning out of control. This
> is very commonly known about and is a fundemental safety issue that no
> driver of such a vehicle should be ignorant of.
>


Understood. And logical. In my first statement I was assuming that there
was still traction.
What you describe may or will happen with an open center diff when one
of the axles loose traction.


> >> 3. If this happens on a slippery downhill condition then it is obvious
> >> that a serious situation can occur with the vehicle spinning totally out
> >> of
> >> control.

> >
> > Don't know.
> >

>
> Well now you do and,


Thanks,
Erik-Jan.
 
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