Help please - diesel or petrol for towing?

dont remember mentioning stockings?

well teflon mate its like trying to knit fog this but hey what do we know . i personally dont have a problem at all with diesel rangerovers , i`ve run em on petrol, gas , and of course diesel.
the diesel one`s have been classics which i have bought as petrols then retro fitted jap diesels i.e isuzu or mazda , i know this will go against the grain with the pureists amongst you , but the reasons were quite simple , the jap diesels i think are a lot more powerfull without having to spend fortunes on adding large intercoolers and having the pumps uprated , they are more reliable, more economical , quieter, and overall a darned sight more refined , these conversions where carried out properly with care and attention to detail making sure everthing functioned as it should including air con , cruise control , rev counter, and all the other bits and pieces , even the air suspension on my last one .
i did many thousands of ultra reliable miles including a good bit of towing with these converted classics , so i dont really need the virtues of diesel powered rangerovers preached to me ............. i already know .
the trouble is and this is just my personal opinion of course ( puts my tin hat on and waits for the flak ) landrover have never produced a decent diesel engine , they have all been as flat as a witch`s t*t , thirsty and noisey , and thats not what i want in a stylish smart motor like a rangerover .
rick.

p.s
i had always loved the power and torque of the petrol v8s but was`nt keen on the fuel bills though , for the last 12 mths though i`ve run lpg / petrol versions both classic and p38a and im sold on them the power , silence ( compared to diesels ) and the economy but best of all has to be the fantastic exhaust tone that only a v8 can produce.

rick071155 said:

well teflon mate its like trying to knit fog this but hey what do we know .

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Obviousely not a lot my freind. Was just pondering gibstorms comments on alternative fuels; and whether it was worth expounding the debate on them; interesting topic; I mean, LPG is a mineral fuel with the main advantage of being cheap by virtue of having historically been a 'by-product' of petrol production, as Diesil was until it became main-stream; but protected from a bit of duty by virtue of its low emmissions.

Bio-Fuels, are a wonderful idea, except that the only reason that they are in any way 'ecconomical' against mineral fuels at the moment is becouse of EEC subsidies..... if the farmers were'nt paid to grow oil seed, then it would be a lot more expensive than it is; if it wasn't for enviro-legistation that makes it even more expensive to throw away than to process into oil, more expensive still...... rediculouse thing about SVO.... is that more than a greater quantity of mineral fuel has been used processing the seed into oil, than is produced as fuel!

Ecconomically, and enviromentally, the stuff is crazy!

Yanks are currently going silly over 'Bio-Ethanol'..... an enviromentally 'freindly' alternative to Petrol, basically, what we used tgo call 'Methanol', and ran things like grass-track bikes on! But mixed with mineral petrol - which somewhat defeats the point, but salves thier conciounces over Iraq (Yank Logic, I guess)

Alchohol, as an alternative fuel, though, has all the ecological advantages of Bio-Deisil or SVO; and the added advantage that processing the raw bio-mass to make it is a lot less energy intensive.... microbes do most of the work for you.

And you can run a conventional petrol engine on the stuff with little more adaptation than reeming out the carb's main jet to about 1/4" or so, which is a little less effort than mucking about with diesil engine pumps and pre-heaters and stuff!

But is still inordinately energy demanding; and commercial manufacture of alchohol fuel would still be inordinately more expensive than mineral ones.

Whats the duty on a litre of Diesil? What's the duty on a litre of Vodka? Whats the duty on a litre of Vegetable oil?

Take off the tax, and compare like for like...... then take off the subsidy to grow oil seed....

Then start looking at adapting or converting engines to run on the alternatives....

Enough subject matter to write a few thesis on!

Would have been interested to contemplate it; but Hey, I've only provided 'opinion' on here, not 'facts', unlike our clerical freind, who has provided opinion CLAIMING it to be fact

I dont hold anything against deisils either; though I would defend Land-rover's efforts..... at least as far as the old two and a quarter.... beyond that they haven't been great. Two and a quarter though; for its day weren't too bad.

Yes, it was flat as a witches, but then the petrol equivilent didn't exactly set the world on fire! Reliable enough, and for its day, and even now, had a pretty respectable rev cieling compared to the competition. Mind you, its consumption wasn't that brilliant.

But, I'm going to go off and ask a sensible question about spark-plug gaps and LPG, I think, then ponder a little over the best procedure to bleed ABS brakes, and if I run out of interesting things like that to do, migt ask myself what the attraction is to sitting on a river bank, watching a bit of string dangle in a pool of water, in the hope of out witting a creature with no brain

Algie said:

Hi All

My first post !!



The general views always seem to be that diesel is best for towing but I would also like to consider a petrol with a [good] LPG conversion.

Anyone towed with a RR 4.6 with LPG ? How were the hills ?


Thanks all

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Just look what you started

supapete said:

Just look what you started

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Think I may have a hand a hand in it by defending my 2.5DT as a tow vehicle ..... oops! sorry

lenb

hi again teflon , yes an intresting subject alternative fuels i know of a couple of local companys running their trucks on bio diesel , but am not sure how they are fareing i.e increased maintainance costs, warrenty issues and the like , but i think even if we were to devolpe a method of running our vehicles on sawdust and water my veiw is this and other goverment would`nt be long at taxing it to the hilt and telling everone " its for your own good " and of course the tree huggers would be right behind them nodding their empty heads in agreement .
given the financial backing and development the infernal combustion engine can be adapted to run on a variety of differing fuels , but in truth is that what the powers that be want , considering the vast amounts they steal from us in duty.
when i first started in my job as an hgv mechanic in 1970 diesel was as cheap as chips , much cheaper than petrol , but as diesel cars became more and more popular then strangely the cost has risen and risen take away the overall increase in production costs which i think would be minimal the bulk of the increase is down to 1 thing only thats the greedy goverment , one thing i have noticed though over the years is that the quality of diesel fuel seems to have improved a hell of a lot when compared to years back for instance , i cant remember a time over the last twenty or so year i have had to go to a truck with frozen diesel or waxed up filters , once up on a time it was a very regular call out in winter time , so i suppose its not all bad .
rick.

Teflon said:

Would have been interested to contemplate it; but Hey, I've only provided 'opinion' on here, not 'facts', unlike our clerical freind, who has provided opinion CLAIMING it to be fact

I dont hold anything against deisils either; though I would defend Land-rover's efforts.....

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When I mentioned 'fact' what I meant was 'Bloke said down the pub so it must be true' For someone who knows such a lot about 'deisils' you really should go back to basics and learn how to spell it! I before E except after C

You must be a good typist judging by the length of your posts. Either that or you have a secretary or one of them programs that types it for you as you talk. Still waiting for some data on diesel v petrol dynamics.

I love deisela-Burp!

Has any thing in all of this to do with Land Rovers plans to scrap the V8 petrol, due to current orders for the V6 & V8 tdi's?

revjames said:

When I mentioned 'fact' what I meant was 'Bloke said down the pub so it must be true' For someone who knows such a lot about 'deisils' you really should go back to basics and learn how to spell it! I before E except after C

You must be a good typist judging by the length of your posts. Either that or you have a secretary or one of them programs that types it for you as you talk. Still waiting for some data on diesel v petrol dynamics.

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i didnt realise that to use this forum you needed an english degree , or is it just you trying to prevoke an angry reaction with more stupid remarks.
i had no problems reading what teflon posted as no doubt everyone else niether had problems reading it , let he who is without sin cast the first stone ....................................my ar*e ffs !

Chart left is for TD5 std & Chipped its in KW & N/M multiply scale by 1.35 to get horse power;
Chart right is for 4.6 V8 std & 'stage 1' tuned.
Chart beneath, 300Tdi, in std & high torque 2.8 versions
I appologise; TD's ramp up to between 1&2000 rpm, where they deliver thier peak torque of just under 300ft/lb.
4.6, is making just a tad less, at about 260/270ish at those revs, but it never makes less than 250ft/lb, and niether of the diesils match that until 1200rpm in the 300tdi's case, or 1500rpm in the TD5's....
So, I guess, for 500rpm or so, the TD's have, MAYBE, Oh...... 15% more available torque. Hardly 'bags', or over a huge gulf of the rev range.
Interesting how the blower effects it too, torque from tickover until 12/1500 rpm is woeful, and in the real world, rather than on a dyno where the motors held at steady state under load, the blower lag would knock the peak off that curve any-way under all but the most grueling climb; becouse you simply dont sit there holding the throttle wide open at 1500rpm.

I do applogise for my spelling Parson, wasn't on the cariculum for scientists; any way, thought you were off to try out wit a fish?

Teflon: So there was an element of truth in what I was saying then?

Rick: No you dont need an English degree, there are just some things that I feel compelled to correct and spelling is one of them. Not trying to provoke, in fact compared to a lot of posts on this site I think I am being very polite and have even apologised to Teflon for an earlier remark.

No the fish out witting is tomorrow. Not difficult. Motor out for about a mile, drop a line over the side with 6 coloured feathers and before the weight hits the bottom there will be 6 fish (mackerel mainly but occasional pollack and cod) on it.

revjames said:

Teflon: So there was an element of truth in what I was saying then?

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Err... lets have a look at this one:

revjames said:

Its a fact that diesels have more torque

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Well, charts show that actually they dont. V8's have more torque; Peak agaainst peak; TD is making about 300ft-lb, V8 makes 350.

revjames said:

especially low down.

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OK, lets look Low down; at tick-over V8's making 250 ft-lb, TD is struggling to make 100! If ANYTHING curves suggest that its the V8 that has MORE torque, and ESPECIALLY more low down.
Its the exact converse of what you were saying..... how can you attempt to imply that the charts suggest that as a 'seed of truth'?

Teflon said:

V8's all of them, have more torque throughout the rev range than the TD's so the 'low down torque' of the oil burners, making them better off road or for towing seems a bit of an anathma.

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If you wish me to accept that the date I have found denies that statement as absolutely accurate; Yes. My statement is not supported by the data I have provided.
Fact that my data does not entirely support my statement, however does not make yours any more correct, nor imply any 'seed of truth'.
I should mention, I came accross the TDV chart, while looking for an answer to my LPG spark plug question, so quickly googled for the other two; I've not spent hours trawling to find definative data; and to compare numbers from dyno charts of uncertain oragin, quoted in diferent units, I used rough and ready conversion factors; so the margin of error & uncertainty has a failrly large tolerance on it; but hey; I'll concede it in your favour.
Taking the data, as it arrived; with rough conversion, jup, in a window of 500rpm of the rev range, any by a margin of about 20ft-lb; it fails to uphold my statement.
But where's that occurs? 20ft-lb at 2000rpm?
20ft-lb, is the sort of torque you put on timing cover screws! It's bugger all; and in comparison to the sort of torques these engines are making hardly significantly 'more', one way or the other.
Now look at the rev range of the TD, 800rpm to 5000rpm. 2000 rpm is darn nearly half maximum operating speed! Its the sort of engine spped you would cruise at in top gear, or where you would be gripping the gear lever ready to change up, if you were accelerating; its almost as far from the rev limiter as it is from tick-over, and I'm sorry in my book, that does NOT make it anything like 'low' revs.

revjames said:

No the fish out witting is tomorrow. Not difficult. Motor out for about a mile, drop a line over the side with 6 coloured feathers and before the weight hits the bottom there will be 6 fish (mackerel mainly but occasional pollack and cod) on it.

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Now, dont take this as being sarcastic...... but, I HONESTLY have NEVER 'got' the fascination with fishing.
These mackerell, first of all, will you eat them? (And will you be collecting a crowd on your way home and searching out some barley loaves to go with them?!)
Becouse that is ONE big thing about fishing I really had trouble wrapping my head round; like, spending hours trying to out wit a carp, with a bit of sweet-corn... getting REALLY exited (for a fisherman, at least.... I could tell, he moved!) at having out witted something with an entirely reflex nervouse system...... then ...... throwing it back in!?!

Thanks for your concise reply Teflon full of good information. I am prepared to say that after careful consideration and analysis of the facts and data. You may be right.

But what about this bit?

Teflon said:

So, I guess, for 500rpm or so, the TD's have, MAYBE, Oh...... 15% more available torque.

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OK now onto fishing

Teflon said:

Now, dont take this as being sarcastic...... but, I HONESTLY have NEVER 'got' the fascination with fishing.
These mackerell, first of all, will you eat them? (And will you be collecting a crowd on your way home and searching out some barley loaves to go with them?!)
Becouse that is ONE big thing about fishing I really had trouble wrapping my head round; like, spending hours trying to out wit a carp, with a bit of sweet-corn... getting REALLY exited (for a fisherman, at least.... I could tell, he moved!) at having out witted something with an entirely reflex nervouse system...... then ...... throwing it back in!?!

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Never been interested in sitting on riverbanks waiting for the 2oz tiddlers. I cant even be that bothered sitting on the rocks by the sea. I enjoy the sea. I live on an island so have been brought up with sea and boats and sailing etc. I now have a boat of my own and enjoy going out on the sea. If I catch anything thats a bonus its just the peace and tranquility of being out there. If the weathers good thats better. Might even enjoy a beer out there too (just the one mind) I have been known to catch over 100 fish. I always throw them back if too small. I usually give a lot of them away to friends, family neighbours and freeze some and eat some fresh. They are nice (Mackerel) grilled with a dash of olive oil and a sprinkle of pepper. also you can BBQ them.

I used to catch reasonable sized plaice and flounder by getting in the sea with a snorkel and a spear gun.

Not sure if I have addressed all your points and questions. Thanks for supplying what I asked for which was data which settles the debate I guess. Have a nice weekend!

Not been a good day. Got the boat sorted, fuelled up and took it to the bay and launched it. Only trouble was I couldnt get the engine started so had to pull it out of the water and drag it home again. Know anything about 2 stroke triples?

revjames said:

Know anything about 2 stroke triples?

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Yes.........
But I'm salivating too much at the thought of nice fresh mackerell, lightly toasted over charcoal with a smattering of olive oil and ground pepper, layed on some nice fresh baked heavy doe bread!!!!!!!!!

This motor, what kind is it?

Presume its on an outboard, verticle crank straight doen the casing to the screw? Inline three or V? Reed-valve, disc or piston ported?

First step though would be the 'usual suspects'...........

Spark plug & Carb(s)

if left standing as leisure boats do, petrol evaporates from the float bowl and leaves the jets firred up.

Plugs normally foul, worse on sea used out-boards, two strokes rely on exhaust harmonics and reverse pulse effects to improve trapping efficiency; can 'back suck' spray into the barel, leaving them with brine condensation in the pots that corrode the electrodes quicker than usual.

Clean the plug; try flushing the carb through with a bit of fresh petrol; do you have bulby primer in the fuel line? Is there a 'tickler' on the carb?

If so, pump both until there is a bad smell of petrol, crank it over with the plugs out for a couple of minutes, pop plugs in and see if you get any life out of it.

If not; check all electrical contacts, especially the 'kill' switch, often you find that that will earth out the ignition, especially if brine has got in and corroded between the contacts.

If all seems OK and you get a spark at the plug with it out the pot(s) then look to the carb & fuel supply.

Is it siphon fed or electrically pumped? Either way, air-locks are worth checking for, and/or leaky joints or perished hoses; before pulling the carb(s) off and looking for furr and or jelly in them.

Have to confess that most of my two-stroke knowledge is from motorbike engines, hence question about what type of fuel pumping you have and not knowing whether you have single manifoluded carb or individual ones per crank case; experience with non-bike related 2T's is from lesser encounter with microlites, that use Rotax Twins, my uncle's Zodiac with a rather large Yamaha on the back, and a few boats I pottered about Lakes in the Rockies in..... only outboard I've seriousely looked at was an old 'villiers' thing, with 'Swallow' on the cover, circa the early 1960's..... It was twenty years old then, and I found it in the back of the garage!
Mate of mine at school lived on a boat yard, and had a canoe (open planes indian style in fibreglass) and as a ten year old..... of course..... daft idea, can we marry the two! Luckily the thing had a duff magneto, and My grandad cought me trying to rob the one off his lawn mower to 'test' what was wrong, which I guess was lucky, otherwise gawd knows what havoc we would have caused!

When you say you live on an 'island'... well britain is an island! Anglesea another one, but from memory, that too has a couple of 'satalites, and Holly-island makes up about 1/3 of the island depending on the tides and the state of the marshes! Do you live on the main bit of Anglesea, HollyIsland or on one of the rocks off it in the Irish Sea?

Its Holy Island on the north western tip. about 8 miles by 4. Anglesey is much bigger about 25 miles across. The motor is an Evinrude 70. It is quite modern and lots of electronics on board. I think on reflectionI may have done something dim. The 'dead man' which pulls out if you go overboard, wasnt in fully to start with. I tried to start it with choke on. I later realised the dead man wasnt in and fitted it in properly but I think by then I probably had oiled up the plugs or flooded it. Even so, I left it 10 mins and tried again and still no good. It has been laid up all winter but my brother used it 2 weeks ago and it was fine. Stupid boats..... I expect it will start first time when my brother tries!

Lovely here at the moment isn't it? Not too many visitors yet and the whole place looks like butter wouldn't melt anywhere near it. It's hard to remember that it rains horizontally, isn't it? I've taken full advantage of the weather replacing O rings, stuck glove box and duff A/C. Still, I suppose that beats pulling the string on an outboard motor with its prop in a dustbin full of water all day. Yep, your brother'll do it straight off. Hwyl am rwan. regards P.S

Yep you are right. Motor started first turn of the key for him. We are going out for a spot of fishing later on. Yesterday, there was no one waiting to use the ramp at T Bay. This weekend and BH monday it will be a different story. Where abouts on Mon are you its Llangefni innit?