HELP - Crossed battery terminals now shorting/non start

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Should I keep trying to fix it or just pull it out the garage

  • Pull it out the garage and leave it to rot

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Get that thing running and put it back on the road!

    Votes: 4 100.0%
  • Total voters
    4
MikeFl4

MikeFl4

Active Member
Posts
104
Location
Ireland
Hi everyone, thank you for clicking on my post - I have broken it down into sections so skip right down to "Issue" if you don't care to read the faff.

Vehicle info :
Range Rover 2001 DHSE - 2.5 Diesel - being used as a semi parts car for my other P38 (until I have time to fix it) but only have removed a handful of cosmetic pieces, nothing mechanical/electrical etc - Vehicle was starting and running/driving like a champ (it ran better and starts better than my other road worthy P38!)

FYI - car was not flawless before this - it has suspension faults/abs faults etc - but always started right up and ran beautifully before.

The act:

I know, I know, I have committed one of the worst sins imaginable for any vehicle and feel terrible about it. About a month ago after not having a battery in my rover, I stuck in one I had charging on the shelf - Stuck on one terminal and when I went to put the other on there was a big load of sparks flying - I probably only had the terminals crossed for 2-3 seconds (which felt like an eternity). I just took out the battery again in shame and left the vehicle to sit for another month.

Reason I need to fix it now:

I have the vehicle sitting in the corner of my garage but a recent business change means it has to move - but after this battery crossing its got a new weird string of problems which I think I may have at least narrowed down to one circuit (and wasn't able to diagnose any further due to lack of electrical knowledge)

Issue :

When I turn the key to ignition 2 - the vehicle starts freaking out, beeping, clicking, power tripping/shorting - if I turn the key again straight to ignition 3 - sometimes it actually turns over (nice and strong) but it doesn't fire.

Video to show issue:

I have a video here to show the issue - with all fuses/relays in place - I turn the key and clicking, beeping etc, audible clicking coming from injection pump area in engine bay - I remove fuse 37 - all clicking and beeping stops but vehicle still wont fire (fuse 37 appears to be part of the starting circuit/fuel)

Additional info:
I have done the following this morning just to check over everything after the terminals were crossed

1. Removed the fuse box and all fuses/relays - they all seem in good condition and not blown/burnt - opened up fuse box to circuit board and there was no visible damage, it looks in fantastic condition to be honest - also checked all fuses under seat and they were fine.
2. Removed engine ECU next to battery and opened up - inspected inside and connector and couldn't see any visible damage or smell anything burnt
3. Cleaned the main engine ground point

Additional additional info:

4. Battery is charged and reading around 12.4v
5. I unscrewed the fuel stop solenoid and it had the same shorting/clicking when on ignition 2
6. I unplugged the main 7 pin round screw connector that goes from the injection pump to the glow plug area and it stopped clicking/shorting with fuse 37 installed on ignition 2.
7. Relays 15 and 19 seem to all be part of a circuit with fuse 37 - when I remove them they don't have much effect.
8. Glow plug light never seems to turn on even when its doing the shorting/clicking - there are a few blubs missing from the cluster but the glow plug one is 100% installed and working

If anybody could give me any ideas on what to do next please let me know, I will probably end up towing it out of the garage today as I'm tired of spending the past 5 hours trying to fix it!
 
MikeFl4 said:
Hi everyone, thank you for clicking on my post - I have broken it down into sections so skip right down to "Issue" if you don't care to read the faff.

Vehicle info :
Range Rover 2001 DHSE - 2.5 Diesel - being used as a semi parts car for my other P38 (until I have time to fix it) but only have removed a handful of cosmetic pieces, nothing mechanical/electrical etc - Vehicle was starting and running/driving like a champ (it ran better and starts better than my other road worthy P38!)

FYI - car was not flawless before this - it has suspension faults/abs faults etc - but always started right up and ran beautifully before.

The act:

I know, I know, I have committed one of the worst sins imaginable for any vehicle and feel terrible about it. About a month ago after not having a battery in my rover, I stuck in one I had charging on the shelf - Stuck on one terminal and when I went to put the other on there was a big load of sparks flying - I probably only had the terminals crossed for 2-3 seconds (which felt like an eternity). I just took out the battery again in shame and left the vehicle to sit for another month.

Reason I need to fix it now:

I have the vehicle sitting in the corner of my garage but a recent business change means it has to move - but after this battery crossing its got a new weird string of problems which I think I may have at least narrowed down to one circuit (and wasn't able to diagnose any further due to lack of electrical knowledge)

Issue :

When I turn the key to ignition 2 - the vehicle starts freaking out, beeping, clicking, power tripping/shorting - if I turn the key again straight to ignition 3 - sometimes it actually turns over (nice and strong) but it doesn't fire.

Video to show issue:

I have a video here to show the issue - with all fuses/relays in place - I turn the key and clicking, beeping etc, audible clicking coming from injection pump area in engine bay - I remove fuse 37 - all clicking and beeping stops but vehicle still wont fire (fuse 37 appears to be part of the starting circuit/fuel)

Additional info:
I have done the following this morning just to check over everything after the terminals were crossed

1. Removed the fuse box and all fuses/relays - they all seem in good condition and not blown/burnt - opened up fuse box to circuit board and there was no visible damage, it looks in fantastic condition to be honest - also checked all fuses under seat and they were fine.
2. Removed engine ECU next to battery and opened up - inspected inside and connector and couldn't see any visible damage or smell anything burnt
3. Cleaned the main engine ground point

Additional additional info:

4. Battery is charged and reading around 12.4v
5. I unscrewed the fuel stop solenoid and it had the same shorting/clicking when on ignition 2
6. I unplugged the main 7 pin round screw connector that goes from the injection pump to the glow plug area and it stopped clicking/shorting with fuse 37 installed on ignition 2.
7. Relays 15 and 19 seem to all be part of a circuit with fuse 37 - when I remove them they don't have much effect.
8. Glow plug light never seems to turn on even when its doing the shorting/clicking - there are a few blubs missing from the cluster but the glow plug one is 100% installed and working

If anybody could give me any ideas on what to do next please let me know, I will probably end up towing it out of the garage today as I'm tired of spending the past 5 hours trying to fix it!
Click to expand...

It only takes nanoseconds to destroy components in ECU's with no visible trace, who knows what damage has been done. The BECM is likely to be a casualty and if it doesn't function it will not send the mobilisation code to the engine ECU.
12.4 volts is not a fully charged battery, should be 12.8 or at least 12.6 volts.
Diagnostics may possibly allow individual ECU's to be checked.
 
Datatek said:
It only takes nanoseconds to destroy components in ECU's with no visible trace, who knows what damage has been done. The BECM is likely to be a casualty and if it doesn't function it will not send the mobilisation code to the engine ECU.
12.4 volts is not a fully charged battery, should be 12.8 or at least 12.6 volts.
Diagnostics may possibly allow individual ECU's to be checked.
Click to expand...


Thanks for your reply, I agree, who knows what number of things may have been damaged with the crossing of the terminals. For now ill do some more diagnosis. I think I to investigate the circuit below more as it contains fuse 37 and what it connects together.

I measured the battery only after an hour or so of messing so its probably ran down with all my testing, Ill stick it on the charger to give it the best chance.

Ill also probably take out the BECM and inspect it later when I get a chance.
 

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Update:
After careful consideration and a lot troubleshooting, I have decided to use my other P38 and a winch to pull the bastard out. It’s unfortunate as I will now probably end up stripping it for parts, as I was planning on doing a huge restoration on this green one (its so original and overall good! Just been neglected the past few years of its life and needs a timing chain along with an overall restoration of air suspension, brakes etc)

Thanks to anyone who commented or even just read this post, I have learned absolute tons from reading these posts and have done a lot of work to my other white P38. Im defiantly going to buy another P38 in the future and do it up (this time I wont be an idiot and cross the damn terminals on the battery, lesson learned!)
 
Glowplugs need that big fuse in the ECU box to be good. Diag might give some pointers; got to be worth a try.

Does the lift-pump in the tank stop running or is it running all the time?
 
Grrrrrr said:
Glowplugs need that big fuse in the ECU box to be good. Diag might give some pointers; got to be worth a try.

Does the lift-pump in the tank stop running or is it running all the time?
Click to expand...

I have pulled out that big fuse a few times now, looks in good condition and nothing really standing out to me. I unplugged that big fuse and unscrewed the positive cable from it, turned the key to ignition 2 with all the other fuses/relays in and it still started shorting/clicking so must be something else in the circuit is not happy.

I haven’t actually tested the lift pump since this whole thing started, I tested it a few months ago and it worked perfectly when I jumped the relay, I find it’s actually really hard to hear if it’s running or not (maybe all the other noise that’s going on is just drowning it out!)

One thing that I noticed (just to throw a spanner in the works here) is that if I get out of the vehicle (all fuses and relays in place)
- I lock the car
- unlock the car
- put the key in the ignition and turn to ignition 2
- I get this weird 5-10 second grace period
- so for 5-10 seconds it doesn’t short/click (no glow plug light though, and if I force it to turn over it acts like the battery is low and turns over like 1 rotation every second)
- after about 5 seconds I hear some clicks (like one from under the seat, one in the drivers door and one in the front - they all
Click within the same half second )
- then it just starts clicking/shorting/beeping again like normal.
- If I turn the key off and then ignition 2 again, it goes straight back to clicking/shorting without this grace period

Only reason I’m mentioning all this is that it makes me believe it’s something more module related, that for what ever reason - the car doesn’t connect this circuit together after a lock and unlock cycle - but once it does connect it - it starts to short off something or itself (hopefully meaning that it’s just one circuit that’s causing this shorting kind of issue)
 
I wonder if you've blown the diodes in the alternator and current is leaking back the wrong way somewhere?

Clicking under the seat definitely sounds like BECM. Not sure about the door. There are microswitches in the lock actuator. I guess the centre one that goes to ground might have melted a fused or something?
 
Grrrrrr said:
I wonder if you've blown the diodes in the alternator and current is leaking back the wrong way somewhere?

Clicking under the seat definitely sounds like BECM. Not sure about the door. There are microswitches in the lock actuator. I guess the center one that goes to ground might have melted a fused or something?
Click to expand...

I very well could have blown something in the alternator, I have it written down to just disconnect the alternator for now as its not much good if the car wont even start. Its pouring rain at the minute and with its new location outside, im not in a huge rush to go back out and work on it. Just to add to the situation, it seems that despite my efforts to close up the windows and sunroof, the sunroof drains must be blocked as water is dripping in, oh the joys of neglected range rover ownership.

I defiantly want to remove the BECM, even just for the experience of doing it, and open it up to have a look for anything obvious that's blown. Maybe ill be lucky and its something super obvious!
 
Disconnect ECU's you don't need for starting, just in case any of them are confusing the BECM . Remember although a P38 does not have common diagnostic bus or Canbus, many of the ECU's talk to BECM to send messages to the message panel. I would also remove any unnecessary relays for now.

When you get the "clicking/shorting/beeping" ignore the beeps & see if you can tell which relays are clicking ?
 
pwood999 said:
Disconnect ECU's you don't need for starting, just in case any of them are confusing the BECM . Remember although a P38 does not have common diagnostic bus or Canbus, many of the ECU's talk to BECM to send messages to the message panel. I would also remove any unnecessary relays for now.

When you get the "clicking/shorting/beeping" ignore the beeps & see if you can tell which relays are clicking ?
Click to expand...
good advice ^^^^^^^^^
 
pwood999 said:
Disconnect ECU's you don't need for starting, just in case any of them are confusing the BECM . Remember although a P38 does not have common diagnostic bus or Canbus, many of the ECU's talk to BECM to send messages to the message panel. I would also remove any unnecessary relays for now.

When you get the "clicking/shorting/beeping" ignore the beeps & see if you can tell which relays are clicking ?
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for this suggestion, I agree with Datatek, this is a good idea to try out. It very well could be something on the Hevac system as thats also running on the same circuit as far as I can see.

When I did my original tests, Fuse 37 installed, Relay 19 and Relay 15 installed.
If I remove the Fuse 37 it seems to stop all the relay clicking, with Fuse 37 installed, the relay clicking stops once Relay 19 and 15 are removed - so thats (im pretty sure) isolating the issue all to one circuit? (atleast the ones that are in line with those relays)
 
You need Relay 19 & F37 start the engine. RL13, RL14 & RL18 are all fed via F37, but for A/C so not required. Remove others such as EAS Timer, HEVAC Fuses, SRS F23, etc.
 
pwood999 said:
You need Relay 19 & F37 start the engine. RL13, RL14 & RL18 are all fed via F37, but for A/C so not required. Remove others such as EAS Timer, HEVAC Fuses, SRS F23, etc.
Click to expand...

OK, so - here we are. Please see the video below:



To recap:
All relays except 19 are removed.
Alternator wires are disconnected.

Rhythmic clicking can be heard around injection pump area, this clicking stops when fuse 37 or relay 19 are removed.
 
MikeFl4 said:
Is it safe to do this? It won’t descyc the BECM and ECM will it? As I don’t have the diagnostic equipment to resync
Click to expand...
If the sync code is still there, it will change nothing. It does sound like the ECU may be toast, if unplugging it stops the clicking, it will be time to look for a replacement. Fitting a replacement will need a Nanocom to write the sync code to the BECM
 
Datatek said:
If the sync code is still there, it will change nothing. It does sound like the ECU may be toast, if unplugging it stops the clicking, it will be time to look for a replacement. Fitting a replacement will need a Nanocom to write the sync code to the BECM
Click to expand...

I removed the ECM, turned the key and no clicking…

looks like we need an ecm.

I’m going to have dinner now
 
Don't know the diesel well, but is it worth disconnecting the solenoid & trying the ECU again ? Or does the solenoid need to be engaged to allow fuel flow ?
 
pwood999 said:
Don't know the diesel well, but is it worth disconnecting the solenoid & trying the ECU again ? Or does the solenoid need to be engaged to allow fuel flow ?
Click to expand...

I would think it would need the ECU to open the stop solenoid but you might be able to disable it. Risky thing to do but maybe for testing.
 
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