Has it got to be the injectors?

davew13 · Mar 28, 2015

Hi I have a Td4 56 plate facelift the problem is at tick over when cold, the symptoms are a light "fluttering/hunting" of the revs if I apply a little gentle throttle say up to 1100revs it continues.

When warm it ticks over fine drives ok . No smoke of any colour.

I did a leak back test and no's 2-3-4 leak back up to say 20% more than no 1.

I've done the EGR bypass, Its got the silicone hoses, recently filters were changed, checked and cleaned the fuel rail pressure sensor and Maf. Had a cleaned inlet manifold fitted. Also had a terraclean (feels more responsive but hasn't changed the idle flutter)

The question is where shall I look next?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Dave

freelance · Mar 28, 2015

Is that 2 ,3, and 4 combined to make 20% or 20% individually? Big difference!

hd3 · Mar 29, 2015

the problem is at tick over when cold

air-intake-temp. sensor .. and engine coolant sensor
both play a part to determine how much fuel to inject at a given temp ..

a.i.temp sensor is easy to clean .. both body and wiring pins ..

not saying it will cure the situation ..
but .. they're only thermo-resistors ..

i know mine will have a higher *litre-per-hour fuel flow* at idle ..
for about the first mile or two ( in stop/go traffic ) .. then it drops as the engine warms up ..
( * reading via a scangaugeII monitor )

~~~~

i clean the a.i.temp sensor maybe twice a year ..
'n all sensors' wiring connectors are smeared with 'contralube'
( as are earths 'n other electrical connections )
97k miles on engine ( td4 ) and no quirky behaviour
( i also regularly use 'diesel rhino' in the fuel )

many of the engine sensors only rely on small voltages to operate in spec. ..

~~~~~~~

i suppose your problem might be an out-of-spec injector ..
just as easily as something else ..

but as you say it only occurs when engine cold
figured i'd mention those two sensors ..

~~~~~~~~
worth having a scangaugeII connected ..
lets one keep an eye on various things as they operate in real-time ..

gstuart · Mar 29, 2015

hd3 said:
air-intake-temp. sensor .. and engine coolant sensor
both play a part to determine how much fuel to inject at a given temp ..

a.i.temp sensor is easy to clean .. both body and wiring pins ..

not saying it will cure the situation ..
but .. they're only thermo-resistors ..

i know mine will have a higher *litre-per-hour fuel flow* at idle ..
for about the first mile or two ( in stop/go traffic ) .. then it drops as the engine warms up ..
( * reading via a scangaugeII monitor )

~~~~

i clean the a.i.temp sensor maybe twice a year ..
'n all sensors' wiring connectors are smeared with 'contralube'
( as are earths 'n other electrical connections )
97k miles on engine ( td4 ) and no quirky behaviour
( i also regularly use 'diesel rhino' in the fuel )

many of the engine sensors only rely on small voltages to operate in spec. ..

~~~~~~~

i suppose your problem might be an out-of-spec injector ..
just as easily as something else ..

but as you say it only occurs when engine cold
figured i'd mention those two sensors ..

~~~~~~~~
worth having a scangaugeII connected ..
lets one keep an eye on various things as they operate in real-time ..

hope u don't mind me asking , how do u find the rhino treatment plse

I normally use millers and just wondered in how they compare and if rhino does indeed make any difference and work

thks again

gstuart · Mar 29, 2015

davew13 said:
Hi I have a Td4 56 plate facelift the problem is at tick over when cold, the symptoms are a light "fluttering/hunting" of the revs if I apply a little gentle throttle say up to 1100revs it continues.

When warm it ticks over fine drives ok . No smoke of any colour.

I did a leak back test and no's 2-3-4 leak back up to say 20% more than no 1.

I've done the EGR bypass, Its got the silicone hoses, recently filters were changed, checked and cleaned the fuel rail pressure sensor and Maf. Had a cleaned inlet manifold fitted. Also had a terraclean (feels more responsive but hasn't changed the idle flutter)

The question is where shall I look next?

Thanks for any thoughts.

Dave

have u checked all ur vacuum hoses for any signs of holes , including the long one that goes onto the turbo

also the crankcase filter ??

will it smoke if u keep the revs around 2000 revs at all plse

davew13 · Mar 29, 2015

freelance said:
Is that 2 ,3, and 4 combined to make 20% or 20% individually? Big difference!

Sorry should have been clearer. It's a 20% difference individually.

Dave

davew13 · Mar 29, 2015

Thanks for the lengthy replies.

The crankcase filter has been changed. I'll check the hose. The coolant temp sensor and air intake sensor I'll look at.

Dave

dougjoy · Mar 29, 2015

Mine runs the same on cold mornings but is fine once the weather warms up. TD4 seem to need a bit of heat in the engine before they work properly. I've got 120K on mine and runs fine apart from at initial start up.
I wouldn't worry about it at all.

gstuart · Mar 30, 2015

dougjoy said:
Mine runs the same on cold mornings but is fine once the weather warms up. TD4 seem to need a bit of heat in the engine before they work properly. I've got 120K on mine and runs fine apart from at initial start up.
I wouldn't worry about it at all.

snap

around 1500 revs it's abit lumpy when cold , once it's warm that's disappears

after around 15/20 mins it's fine

Jonty1 · Mar 30, 2015

dougjoy said:
Mine runs the same on cold mornings but is fine once the weather warms up. TD4 seem to need a bit of heat in the engine before they work properly. I've got 120K on mine and runs fine apart from at initial start up.
I wouldn't worry about it at all.

Mine certainly don't behave like yours, fellas - starts n runs like a train from the off. 2001 TD4 with 150,000 miles on the clock

gstuart · Mar 30, 2015

Jonty1 said:
Mine certainly don't behave like yours, fellas - starts n runs like a train from the off. 2001 TD4 with 150,000 miles on the clock

mine starts on the button , revs fine but just have a little grumble around 1500 revs ,but only when cold , good as mines on 180,000 , no smoke and still pulls very well

returns around 41 mpg on a run , just cleaned all the inlet manifold

rare occassion if u put ur foot on the accelerator from starting it doesn't do anything , then after a few seconds is fine, only happended a few times though in the last 4 years

think the injector cleaners like millers or rhino helps clean some of the crap out

clarkkent · Mar 30, 2015

davew13 said:
The question is where shall I look next?

No one knows the answer to that.
This topic has been done to death and many,myself included, have spent way too much time and money trying to solve it without joy.
The general view is that they just do it and live with it.

gstuart · Mar 30, 2015

clarkkent said:
No one knows the answer to that.
This topic has been done to death and many,myself included, have spent way too much time and money trying to solve it without joy.
The general view is that they just do it and live with it.

tend to agree , they do seem a little bit lumpy when there cold,

I've done all the oils, bmw crankcase filter , air filter, turbo filter, new silicone hoses including the air intake , egy bypass, cleaned, maf, map, sensors , fuel rail sensor , injector harness all ok

a rechipped synergy fitted which also has a maf compensator in it but not required , had it rechipped for maximum mpg

removed and cleaned air intake manifold, all new vacuum hoses throughout

still abit lumpy , but once it's warm is fine , hasn't bothered me as it doesn't cut out, doesn't smoke and once warm smooths out very nicely, pulls very well from cold , but I take it very easy to give the oil a chance to get round the engine until it warms up

think that about covers it, lol , oh and plenty of cups of tea

think as long as it doesn't smoke, cut out and drives well it's nothing to worry about

oh I do use an injector cleaner but don't put it in every time as it says not to ,

use millers and going to try rhino then an ultrasonic bath for the injectors as I've done 180,000 miles and don't know when they were last serviced

lenny1234 · Mar 30, 2015

Mine was a bit lumpy when first started, but after a full service and replacing just about everything in the fuel system its not any more. I cant be more helpful than that because the garage simply replaced everything that looked dodgy including the fuel pump.

Of course the weather is warmer now as well.

Epicuser · Mar 30, 2015

Mine was lumpy until I had 2 injectors replaced on my 06 Td4. It had 120,000 roughly at the time.

hd3 · Mar 30, 2015

gstuart

how do u find the rhino treatment plse
I normally use millers and just wondered in how they compare and if rhino does indeed make any difference and work

twice i wrote out a lengthy reply in the reply box
twice i hit the submit button only to be told i was not logged in .. and lost the posts

in short 'diesel rhino' also contains a water-dispersant ..
and biocide to kill off any diesel-bug ..

links at the right hand side of this page give info re water in diesel fuel
Diesel Injectors UK, Buy Diesel Injectors Online, UK Sales & Online Shopping

see the links for: .. ( or search google with 'diesel fuel water injectors high pressure pump' )
"Injectors are at the heart of your diesel - keep them clean!"
"How clean is the diesel fuel in your tank?"

most additives use the same chemicals for certain jobs
lubrication - detergents - cetane boosters .. etc etc ..
the web sites usually have a .pdf file of the ingredients ..
those chemicals can be looked up on the internet to see what they're commonly used for ..

i used 'diesel-rhino' many years ago .. in the usa .. on the advice of fleet mechanics and other ( hgv ) drivers
it was then known as 'diesel-aid' ..
E-ZOIL | Products | Diesel Aid
E-ZOIL | Products | Diesel Aid + Cetane
it were sold as diesel aid here in the uk .. then they changed the name to 'diesel rhino'
was a blog attached to the 'united diesel' website explaining why the name were changed ..

when i bought my hippo .. due to past experience ..
i particularly looked for an additive that would include a water dispersant as well ..
in any case .. turned out that 'diesel aid' was available in the uk as well ..
so went with it .. as mentioned it is now known as 'diesel rhino' ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i imagine millers probably uses the same chemicals as diesel rhino to clean / lubricate / etc etc
( i.e. whatever millers claims to do ) ..
it can be checked by researching those pdf files mentioned above ..

~~~~~~~~~

btw: lumpiness-when-cold could easily ( also ) be due to mechanical clearances inside the cylinder
tightening up as the engine heats up .. giving better compression ..
be lots of (other)things that could cause said lumpiness-when-cold .. including fuel quality ..

mine don't have any lumpiness-when-cold ..
( except about 2 seconds worth at idle when starting up in below freezing temps )

clarkkent · Mar 31, 2015

lenny1234 said:
Of course the weather is warmer now as well.

From what I've read through, weather is the common factor. The warmer the weather, the less the problem.
Which would indicate that it's just plain old engine wear. The colder the block the worse the initial compression.

gstuart · Mar 31, 2015

hd3 said:
gstuart

twice i wrote out a lengthy reply in the reply box
twice i hit the submit button only to be told i was not logged in .. and lost the posts

in short 'diesel rhino' also contains a water-dispersant ..
and biocide to kill off any diesel-bug ..

links at the right hand side of this page give info re water in diesel fuel
Diesel Injectors UK, Buy Diesel Injectors Online, UK Sales & Online Shopping

see the links for: .. ( or search google with 'diesel fuel water injectors high pressure pump' )
"Injectors are at the heart of your diesel - keep them clean!"
"How clean is the diesel fuel in your tank?"

most additives use the same chemicals for certain jobs
lubrication - detergents - cetane boosters .. etc etc ..
the web sites usually have a .pdf file of the ingredients ..
those chemicals can be looked up on the internet to see what they're commonly used for ..

i used 'diesel-rhino' many years ago .. in the usa .. on the advice of fleet mechanics and other ( hgv ) drivers
it was then known as 'diesel-aid' ..
E-ZOIL | Products | Diesel Aid
E-ZOIL | Products | Diesel Aid + Cetane
it were sold as diesel aid here in the uk .. then they changed the name to 'diesel rhino'
was a blog attached to the 'united diesel' website explaining why the name were changed ..

when i bought my hippo .. due to past experience ..
i particularly looked for an additive that would include a water dispersant as well ..
in any case .. turned out that 'diesel aid' was available in the uk as well ..
so went with it .. as mentioned it is now known as 'diesel rhino' ..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i imagine millers probably uses the same chemicals as diesel rhino to clean / lubricate / etc etc
( i.e. whatever millers claims to do ) ..
it can be checked by researching those pdf files mentioned above ..

~~~~~~~~~

btw: lumpiness-when-cold could easily ( also ) be due to mechanical clearances inside the cylinder
tightening up as the engine heats up .. giving better compression ..
be lots of (other)things that could cause said lumpiness-when-cold .. including fuel quality ..

mine don't have any lumpiness-when-cold ..
( except about 2 seconds worth at idle when starting up in below freezing temps )

bless u buddy for that , know the feeling when u write it out then ur not logged on or the web site is down for maintenence

normally at 2 am and 4.30 am

will have a good read and very grateful to u for posting it

have got a new bottle of rhino and forgot I had it, will give it a go at least to see how it performs

ref the lumpy engine,, never bothered me to be honest

sometimes I think it can even be the grade of engine oil u put in , or how old it is , not sure how that's holds up but just a thought ??

plus the ptc heater is nice on cold mornings ,

gstuart · Mar 31, 2015

plus noticed on that injector site they sell a set of 4 x nozzles for £125 , td4

very cheap that's for sure and a lot cheaper than £400 for a set of recon injectors

don't know if by replacing the nozzles it makes the injectors brand new again ??

freelance · Mar 31, 2015

Your comment about the oil Gary, the more oil that holds around the piston rings, the more compression you will have at cold cranking, the better it will start,

Has it got to be the injectors?

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