Hack attacks mounted on car control systems

I read this news item about someone hacking a cars ecu....

BBC News - Hack attacks mounted on car control systems

"An investigation by security researchers found the systems to be "fragile" and easily subverted. The researchers showed how to kill a car engine remotely, turn off the brakes so the car would not stop and make instruments give false readings."

I reckon that with the P38 Becm in control, us P38 owners would never notice if our cars had been hacked !

They hacked that one through the diagnostic socket, so that's us safe anyway....

If the corrosion on the diagnostic port from coolant leaking out of the heater o-rings doesn't stop them, they'll never manage to communicate with the Becm :rofl:

I thought the "O" rings were the opposite side to the OBDIII ??????????

Irishrover said:

I thought the "O" rings were the opposite side to the OBDIII ??????????

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They are:doh:

An attack like that relies on physical access to system, i.e. OBD socket.

Although in theory you could carry out the equivalent of a remote network sniffing attack to listen to data being transmitted around the cars systems via the EM emissions, I don't see any way of inputing data remotely.

Besides, cutting the brakelines is a far easier way of turning off the brakes

Better one ..... Find a Ford (Circa 2000's) & go belt the front offside Wheel hub wiv a rubber hammer............... Result ....the airbag goes off & ALL THE DOORS UNLOCK!!!!

You might not nic the car but whatevers inside is YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the hooded claw said:

Better one ..... Find a Ford (Circa 2000's) & go belt the front offside Wheel hub wiv a rubber hammer............... Result ....the airbag goes off & ALL THE DOORS UNLOCK!!!!

You might not nic the car but whatevers inside is YOURS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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but is there any thing worth nicking from a 10 year old ford claw ???

oh they may have some majic trees and a george micheal cd

Kungfu0210 said:

I read this news item about someone hacking a cars ecu....

BBC News - Hack attacks mounted on car control systems

"An investigation by security researchers found the systems to be "fragile" and easily subverted. The researchers showed how to kill a car engine remotely, turn off the brakes so the car would not stop and make instruments give false readings."

I reckon that with the P38 Becm in control, us P38 owners would never notice if our cars had been hacked !

They hacked that one through the diagnostic socket, so that's us safe anyway....

If the corrosion on the diagnostic port from coolant leaking out of the heater o-rings doesn't stop them, they'll never manage to communicate with the Becm :rofl:

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I think thats a load of b*##*cks. you can't turn brakes off, only the abs. They are "fail safe" and will operate (not always very well) without any sort of power or electronics.

Datatek said:

I think thats a load of b*##*cks. you can't turn brakes off, only the abs. They are "fail safe" and will operate (not always very well) without any sort of power or electronics.

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But the abs can turn the brakes off.. so if you send false abs lockup messages, the brakes won't work...

robp38 said:

but is there any thing worth nicking from a 10 year old ford claw ???

oh they may have some majic trees and a george micheal cd

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Well YEAH rob ..totally aggree ..but yer never know some total GOON could have left his top-o-the line Lappy under the seat!!!

P38 wont be working long enough to hack it anyway , by the time they had connected the liners would have slipped and the eas collapsed pml

OXO said:

But the abs can turn the brakes off.. so if you send false abs lockup messages, the brakes won't work...

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ABS turn the brakes off? Thats news to me, all it does is modulates the hydraulic pressure when a wheel stops rotating which ain't the same as turning the brakes off. If you send false ABS lock up messages it would take longer to stop due to the pressure modulation but you would still stop.

sounds like a blue tooth obd2 socket required and you can kill people james bond style.

Datatek said:

ABS turn the brakes off? Thats news to me, all it does is modulates the hydraulic pressure when a wheel stops rotating which ain't the same as turning the brakes off. If you send false ABS lock up messages it would take longer to stop due to the pressure modulation but you would still stop.

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No mate. The abs has full control. On ice and snow it has to get the pressure *really* low. Just think about it...

What an utter and complete load of manure.

When accessing a vehicle system even via the OBDII one can only call upon the functions that were specifically designed in by its origional designer and change settings that were specifically designed to be adjustable. As such there is no possible way to detonate an Airbag diagnostically nor any way to set the brakes to off no matter how hard you wanted to or tried.

Take it from someone who has reverse engineered each and every single system to the very lowest level possible. This simply cannot be done diagnostically or electronically at all.

BBS Guy said:

What an utter and complete load of manure.

When accessing a vehicle system even via the OBDII one can only call upon the functions that were specifically designed in by its origional designer and change settings that were specifically designed to be adjustable. As such there is no possible way to detonate an Airbag diagnostically nor any way to set the brakes to off no matter how hard you wanted to or tried.

Take it from someone who has reverse engineered each and every single system to the very lowest level possible. This simply cannot be done diagnostically or electronically at all.

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I think you need to read the original paper referenced before you start spouting off about this. They are not talking about doing it through the OBDII connector.

Don't think it will be a problem on the P38, many people have trouble communicating with the ECU even with the correct equipement. Personally think it's a load of bollocks. Vehicles with telemetry maybe, P38 no way.

Think OXO has got it about right. CAESS - Home will take you to their site, and the faq.s section clarifies what teir research is about. I`ve not downloaded the complete report but it`s there for those of you with the time... I got to go light a barbie... P.S. could this be the clue about Lady Di in the Parisian tunnel we`ve all been waiting for? Could sell a few more tabloids.

I think you need to read it yourself. It says their equipement was connected to the OBDII socket. Unless the vehicle has wifi telemetry it is impossible to access the ECUs unless the OBDII is used. Except a thermo nuclear pulse it is not possible to knock out the ECUs. There are experiments on going in the states, were by a vehicle is fitted with a reciever to enable the authorities to apply the brakes or shut down the engine in case of criminal activity. Maybe that is what they are on about. And what it could lead to IF a spurrious singal was sent by some technocrat nutter.

No problems for us anyway, they refer to `modern` electronics; and,as you say only a `nutter` would attempt such a thing.... it`s obvious there`s none around here..

gtland said:

No problems for us anyway, they refer to `modern` electronics; and,as you say only a `nutter` would attempt such a thing.... it`s obvious there`s none around here..

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What modern electrics or nutters

OXO said:

I think you need to read the original paper referenced before you start spouting off about this. They are not talking about doing it through the OBDII connector.

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Here is a precis of the FAQ's section of the report. As you can see they were accessing the vehicles OBDII port, read the last line.

As BBS Guy says, as far as current generation vehicles are concerned it's a load of nonsense.

"We believe that car owners today should not be overly concerned at this time. It requires significant sophistication to develop the capabilities described in our paper and we are unaware of any attackers who are even targeting automobiles at this time.
However, we do believe that our work should be read as a wake-up call. While today's car owners should not be alarmed, we believe that it is time to focus squarely on addressing potential automotive security issues to ensure that future cars — with ever more sophisticated computer control and broader wireless connectivity — will be able to offer commensurately strong security guarantees as well.

How much of a modern automobile is computerized?
There are over 250 million registered passenger automobiles in the United States. The vast majority of these are computer controlled to a significant degree and virtually all new cars are now pervasively computerized. Computers (in the form of self-contained embedded systems) have been integrated into virtually every aspect of a car's functioning and diagnostics, including the throttle, transmission, brakes, speedometer, climate and lighting controls, external lights, and entertainment.

How can the computers in a car be accessed?
The primary direct interface to the computers in a U.S. automobile is the federally-mandated On-Board Diagnostics (OBD-II) port. It is under the dash in virtually all modern vehicles and provides direct and standard access to internal automotive networks. In many cars a range of wireless devices are also attached to these networks, as can be some after-market products (e.g., entertainment units). In our experiments, we connected our equipment to the OBD-II port.