Good Td5's??

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Derry Argue

Guest
OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what about
Td5s?

I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another Defender
but with one of those computer thingies in it.

Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been reading the
"I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a better '98 300Tdi?

Derry
 
....and Derry Argue spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


> OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what
> about Td5s?
>
> I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another
> Defender but with one of those computer thingies in it.
>
> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been
> reading the "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a
> better '98 300Tdi?
>
> Derry

I've never heard of anyone with major problems (or any, come to that) with a
Td5. (The thread you mention refers to a P38 with a 4.6 V8 - no relation.
The computer in question there seems to be the BECM which controls bodily
functions, and the issues with low voltages and stray signals locking owners
out of their cars are legendary.)

I've heard the Td5 decribed (in one of the mags) as the best engine Land
Rover ever made. My only complaint (early manual Disco) was a lack of
torque off tickover, but I've heard of no complaints of that with the
Defender application and IIRC it was fixed for the later Discos. Autos have
always been OK - my current one is a blinder.

The Td5 is computer controlled, but it seems to be one of the discreet ones
that just gets on with the job and doesn't throw a wobbler every time it
rains/gets dark/incorrect phase of moon etc.

FWIW, I've just gone from a 300Tdi auto Disco to an early Td5 auto Disco.
The difference between the engines is substantial. Even with the full
Jeremy Fearn treatment, the 300 was not a patch on the Td5. Dave (edeowner
on this group) drives a Td5 Defender regularly for work, towing 3-4 tonnes
of boat, and he loves it.

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.


 
On or around 25 Feb 2006 21:13:54 GMT, Derry Argue <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what about
>Td5s?
>
>I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another Defender
>but with one of those computer thingies in it.
>
>Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been reading the
>"I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a better '98 300Tdi?

The first ones are reckoned to be a pain to drive due to the nature of the
power delivery - little torque at low revs making it easy to stall it, ISTR.

I've an idea there might be a chip tweak to improve this. But that might
not be so, so don't take it as gospel.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
....and Austin Shackles spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


>> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been
>> reading the "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a
>> better '98 300Tdi?
>
> The first ones are reckoned to be a pain to drive due to the nature
> of the power delivery - little torque at low revs making it easy to
> stall it, ISTR.

This is what I found with the manual Disco II (2001). However, I talked to
a lot of Disco and Defender owners while trying to find out whether mine was
wrong in some way or if "they are all like that sir", and I never found one
Defender Td5 owner who had any problem at all. The fuel mapping is very
different between the Def and Disco anyway (and between the Disco manual and
auto) with the Defender having less power and more torque IIRC, so if the OP
is looking for a Defender I think he should be fine.

> I've an idea there might be a chip tweak to improve this. But that
> might not be so, so don't take it as gospel.

They are all "chippable", and there are plenty of chip shops out there.

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.


 
On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:31:15 -0000, Richard Brookman wrote:

> My only complaint (early manual Disco) was a lack of torque off
> tickover,

Mine (2001 DII TD5 Manual) will happily move along in tickover in any
gear (hi ratio selected) but doesn't like much of a hill in 5th at
20+mph... Very handy for slow moving traffic and manouvering. I do find
there is a gap in the available power/torque from tickover to about
1200rpm, this can cause a stall when you forget about it.

The other "gotcha" is, I feel, down to the complete control of the engine
by the computer there is a *tiny* lag between you pushing the go pedal
and the engine responding whilst the computer thinks about what it needs
to tell the engine to do and the relevant parts moving etc.

> The Td5 is computer controlled, but it seems to be one of the discreet
> ones that just gets on with the job and doesn't throw a wobbler every
> time it rains/gets dark/incorrect phase of moon etc.

Just as well as there is no manual mechanical control of the engine at
all the computer does it all...

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 
"Dave Liquorice" <[email protected]> wrote in
news:[email protected]:

>
> Just as well as there is no manual mechanical control of the engine at
> all the computer does it all...

That's what scares me. But I suppose so long as Microsoft isn't involved,
it might be OK.

Thanks, guys. Any more comments are very welcome!

Derry
 

"Dave Liquorice" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:31:15 -0000, Richard Brookman wrote:

> The other "gotcha" is, I feel, down to the complete control of the engine
> by the computer there is a *tiny* lag between you pushing the go pedal
> and the engine responding whilst the computer thinks about what it needs
> to tell the engine to do and the relevant parts moving etc.
>
> > The Td5 is computer controlled, but it seems to be one of the discreet
> > ones that just gets on with the job and doesn't throw a wobbler every
> > time it rains/gets dark/incorrect phase of moon etc.
>
> Just as well as there is no manual mechanical control of the engine at
> all the computer does it all...
>
> --
> Cheers [email protected]
> Dave. pam is missing e-mail
>
>
A bit off the original topic here but:

I towed around 1.5 tonnes with a TD5 Disco 2003 model recently and found
that (apart from the pulling off lag as described above) that engine braking
down a steep hill in (high) second gear appeared to be non-existent. The
engine revs would drop to tickover as soon as I took my foot of the throttle
but I could feel no slowing down (and yes - it was in gear :)) as a result.

Am I mad?

graeme



 
On 26 Feb 2006 00:25:05 GMT, Derry Argue wrote:

>> Just as well as there is no manual mechanical control of the engine at
>> all the computer does it all...
>
> That's what scares me.

They appear to "just work" and keep working. Mine takes quite a while to
learn the engine if the car is powered down (as in battery disconnected)
for a while. For "quite a while" read 100 miles or more and it is quite
sluggish until it has learn't.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 
....and Graeme spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


> "Dave Liquorice" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:31:15 -0000, Richard Brookman wrote:
>
>> The other "gotcha" is, I feel, down to the complete control of the
>> engine by the computer there is a *tiny* lag between you pushing the
>> go pedal and the engine responding whilst the computer thinks about
>> what it needs to tell the engine to do and the relevant parts moving
>> etc.
>>
>>> The Td5 is computer controlled, but it seems to be one of the
>>> discreet ones that just gets on with the job and doesn't throw a
>>> wobbler every time it rains/gets dark/incorrect phase of moon etc.
>>
>> Just as well as there is no manual mechanical control of the engine
>> at all the computer does it all...
>>
>> --
>> Cheers
>> [email protected] Dave.
>> pam is missing e-mail
>>
>>
> A bit off the original topic here but:
>
> I towed around 1.5 tonnes with a TD5 Disco 2003 model recently and
> found that (apart from the pulling off lag as described above) that
> engine braking down a steep hill in (high) second gear appeared to be
> non-existent. The engine revs would drop to tickover as soon as I
> took my foot of the throttle but I could feel no slowing down (and
> yes - it was in gear :)) as a result.
>
> Am I mad?
>
> graeme

Auto or manual? I find this with the auto if you allow the revs to drop.
It seems to fall out of the "zone" and drop to tickover, as you say. If the
revs are high enough to start with (2500+?) it seems to stay up there and
provide decent engine braking. If it's manual and doing this, it's
b*ggered!

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.


 
....and Dave Liquorice spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...

> The other "gotcha" is, I feel, down to the complete control of the
> engine by the computer there is a *tiny* lag between you pushing the
> go pedal and the engine responding whilst the computer thinks about
> what it needs to tell the engine to do and the relevant parts moving
> etc.

And the reverse is true as well - if you are accelerating and need to brake
suddenly, there is a tiny lag between taking your foot off the gas and the
car starting to slow, whereas a cable throttle would react instantly. This
can be a little unnerving until you get used to it. Disco again, though - a
Defender might be set up differently.

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.


 
In message <[email protected]>
Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:

> OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what about
> Td5s?
>
> I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another Defender
> but with one of those computer thingies in it.
>
> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been reading the
> "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a better '98 300Tdi?
>
> Derry

Td5' are as good, if not better, that most, if not all, the competition.

Very early ones had an issue with injectors/intector timing, but that
as usual was blown up out of all proportion by the motoring press.

There is an occasional problem with a plastic "dowel" lifting the
head - again it's not every engine by any means and the feeling round
here is that the problem is usualy a result of something else (i.e.
overheating).

The "throttle" problem of very early motors has been addresed - the
accelerator pedal potentiometer response has been modded to give
better low speed control.

There was an issue with oil seeping back down the harness into the ECU
and causing "interesting" running - there was/is a free engine harness
upgrade from LR to solve this (basically a new type of grommet).

Lack of torque at low revs is an issue for "commercial" users, but
is not a show stopper.

Most of the Td5 Defender owners we support are perfectly happy with
the Td5, though quite a few would go for a 200/300Tdi if the choice
were available - but then they really do want a tractor with
fantastic road performance and no electronics!

To sum up - there is no way the Td5 could be described as a disaster,
ask a Toyota Surf 2.8 owners about disaters!

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
On 2006-02-26, Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:

> That's what scares me. But I suppose so long as Microsoft isn't
> involved, it might be OK.

Early reports of the new engine criticised the accelerator pedal,
which had a small potentiometer underneath it that told the ECU what
the accelerator pedal was doing. If this got muddy or wet, it stopped
working leaving you with tickover and nothing else. One of the landy
mags went on an off-road excursion with a few of the then-new trucks
and took them through a river but lost the accelerator pedals on all
of them until they'd dried out. They had to get through and out of
the river using no throttle control on just tickover. I'm not sure if
this is still a problem or one that got fixed early on.

A friend of mine who recently converted to the landrover faith tried
TD5 and 300TDi defenders, and went for a 300TDi as he spotted the lack
of low-rev torque immediately and managed to stall the TD5 when
pulling away quite a few times.

If you intend to do mainly on-road driving then perhaps a TD5 will be
OK, but I'd be inclined to stick to the mechanical 300TDi with better
torque and little fear of water or mud if I was going to off-road.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ...and Graeme spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...
>
>
> > "Dave Liquorice" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> On Sat, 25 Feb 2006 21:31:15 -0000, Richard Brookman wrote:
> >
> >> The other "gotcha" is, I feel, down to the complete control of the
> >> engine by the computer there is a *tiny* lag between you pushing the
> >> go pedal and the engine responding whilst the computer thinks about
> >> what it needs to tell the engine to do and the relevant parts moving
> >> etc.
> >>
> >>> The Td5 is computer controlled, but it seems to be one of the
> >>> discreet ones that just gets on with the job and doesn't throw a
> >>> wobbler every time it rains/gets dark/incorrect phase of moon etc.
> >>
> >> Just as well as there is no manual mechanical control of the engine
> >> at all the computer does it all...
> >>
> >> --
> >> Cheers
> >> [email protected] Dave.
> >> pam is missing e-mail
> >>
> >>
> > A bit off the original topic here but:
> >
> > I towed around 1.5 tonnes with a TD5 Disco 2003 model recently and
> > found that (apart from the pulling off lag as described above) that
> > engine braking down a steep hill in (high) second gear appeared to be
> > non-existent. The engine revs would drop to tickover as soon as I
> > took my foot of the throttle but I could feel no slowing down (and
> > yes - it was in gear :)) as a result.
> >
> > Am I mad?
> >
> > graeme
>
> Auto or manual? I find this with the auto if you allow the revs to drop.
> It seems to fall out of the "zone" and drop to tickover, as you say. If
the
> revs are high enough to start with (2500+?) it seems to stay up there and
> provide decent engine braking. If it's manual and doing this, it's
> b*ggered!
>
> --
> Rich
> ==============================
>
> There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
> and those who don't.
>
Hi Richard

It was an auto - previously I'd done a lot of towing with an auto RR Classic
and found the ability to use the auto gearbox as a 'semi-manual' gave a
smooth tow ideal for horses.

This Disco was - well, simply naff. High first gave decent engine braking
but no speed, high second - like I said - scary

Graeme


 
>> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been reading the
>> "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a better '98 300Tdi?
>>
>> Derry

I look after loads of Td5's and apart from the odd water leak I really
have to do very little to them.

I know the insides of the 200 and 300 very well but still think they are
great engines.

I now do "chips" for the Td5's and have just done my 110, It is
fantastic now for towing. The extra torque that you get from the chip
makes them a different vehicle.

Interestingly one of the ways LR have improved the throttle damping on
the later models is to tell the ECU that it is permanently in low range.
Makes it much smoother.

--
Marc Draper
 
On or around Sun, 26 Feb 2006 09:31:30 -0000, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>...and Dave Liquorice spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...
>
>> The other "gotcha" is, I feel, down to the complete control of the
>> engine by the computer there is a *tiny* lag between you pushing the
>> go pedal and the engine responding whilst the computer thinks about
>> what it needs to tell the engine to do and the relevant parts moving
>> etc.
>
>And the reverse is true as well - if you are accelerating and need to brake
>suddenly, there is a tiny lag between taking your foot off the gas and the
>car starting to slow, whereas a cable throttle would react instantly. This
>can be a little unnerving until you get used to it. Disco again, though - a
>Defender might be set up differently.

In the case of the TDi ones, discos are seriously high-geared.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The breezy call of incense-breathing Morn, The swallow twittering
from the strawbuilt shed, The cock's shrill clarion, or the echoing
horn, No more shall rouse them from their lowly bed."
Thomas Gray, Elegy Written in a Country Churchyard.
 
beamendsltd wrote:
> In message <[email protected]>
> Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what
>> about Td5s?
>>
>> I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another
>> Defender but with one of those computer thingies in it.
>>
>> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been
>> reading the "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a
>> better '98 300Tdi?
>>
>> Derry
>
> Td5' are as good, if not better, that most, if not all, the
> competition.
>
> Very early ones had an issue with injectors/intector timing, but that
> as usual was blown up out of all proportion by the motoring press.
>
> There is an occasional problem with a plastic "dowel" lifting the
> head - again it's not every engine by any means and the feeling round
> here is that the problem is usualy a result of something else (i.e.
> overheating).
>
> The "throttle" problem of very early motors has been addresed - the
> accelerator pedal potentiometer response has been modded to give
> better low speed control.
>
> There was an issue with oil seeping back down the harness into the ECU
> and causing "interesting" running - there was/is a free engine harness
> upgrade from LR to solve this (basically a new type of grommet).
>
> Lack of torque at low revs is an issue for "commercial" users, but
> is not a show stopper.
>
> Most of the Td5 Defender owners we support are perfectly happy with
> the Td5, though quite a few would go for a 200/300Tdi if the choice
> were available - but then they really do want a tractor with
> fantastic road performance and no electronics!
>
> To sum up - there is no way the Td5 could be described as a disaster,
> ask a Toyota Surf 2.8 owners about disaters!
>

There is also one issue with the engine oil pump which could fail, resulting
in a seized engine. I don't know the build timescale of the effected engines
but this was/is an occasional nuisance ;-(

Huw


 
In <f522bff4d%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
<[email protected]> said
>In message <[email protected]>
> Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:
>> OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what about
>> Td5s?
>>
>> I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another Defender
>> but with one of those computer thingies in it.
>>
>> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been reading the
>> "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a better '98 300Tdi?
>>
>> Derry
>
>Td5' are as good, if not better, that most, if not all, the competition.
>
>Very early ones had an issue with injectors/intector timing, but that
>as usual was blown up out of all proportion by the motoring press.
>
>There is an occasional problem with a plastic "dowel" lifting the
>head - again it's not every engine by any means and the feeling round
>here is that the problem is usualy a result of something else (i.e.
>overheating).
>
>The "throttle" problem of very early motors has been addresed - the
>accelerator pedal potentiometer response has been modded to give
>better low speed control.
>
>There was an issue with oil seeping back down the harness into the ECU
>and causing "interesting" running - there was/is a free engine harness
>upgrade from LR to solve this (basically a new type of grommet).
>
>Lack of torque at low revs is an issue for "commercial" users, but
>is not a show stopper.
>
>Most of the Td5 Defender owners we support are perfectly happy with
>the Td5, though quite a few would go for a 200/300Tdi if the choice
>were available - but then they really do want a tractor with
>fantastic road performance and no electronics!
>
>To sum up - there is no way the Td5 could be described as a disaster,
>ask a Toyota Surf 2.8 owners about disaters!

My experience is that a TD5 is both reliable and eminently thrashable
in its Defender-implementation.

_averaging_ 72MPH on a night-time trip from Berkshire to Perth is
good going; when you consider that I had a couple of tons of structural
steelwork on the trailer behind me it can only be described as 'bloody
brilliant'.

Thankfully I wasn't paying the fuel bill! (is 16MPG a record for a
diesel Defender? I got really friendly with the service-areas on M6
and A74)

Overtaking cars up Shap Fell while towing a big trailer is fun.
--
Tanuki
"Sir Henry was best known for inventing the 'Doppler Shift' school of music;
getting the orchestra to play rapidly rising or descending scales. This causes
the orchestra to move. Initial scepticism on the merits of this new art-form
were dispelled when the London Symphony Orchestra were timed at 75MPH through a
police speed-trap"
 
....and Huw spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


> beamendsltd wrote:
>> In message <[email protected]>
>> Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what
>>> about Td5s?
>>>
>>> I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another
>>> Defender but with one of those computer thingies in it.
>>>
>>> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been
>>> reading the "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a
>>> better '98 300Tdi?
>>>
>>> Derry
>>
>> Td5' are as good, if not better, that most, if not all, the
>> competition.
>>
>> Very early ones had an issue with injectors/intector timing, but that
>> as usual was blown up out of all proportion by the motoring press.
>>
>> There is an occasional problem with a plastic "dowel" lifting the
>> head - again it's not every engine by any means and the feeling round
>> here is that the problem is usualy a result of something else (i.e.
>> overheating).
>>
>> The "throttle" problem of very early motors has been addresed - the
>> accelerator pedal potentiometer response has been modded to give
>> better low speed control.
>>
>> There was an issue with oil seeping back down the harness into the
>> ECU and causing "interesting" running - there was/is a free engine
>> harness upgrade from LR to solve this (basically a new type of
>> grommet). Lack of torque at low revs is an issue for "commercial" users,
>> but
>> is not a show stopper.
>>
>> Most of the Td5 Defender owners we support are perfectly happy with
>> the Td5, though quite a few would go for a 200/300Tdi if the choice
>> were available - but then they really do want a tractor with
>> fantastic road performance and no electronics!
>>
>> To sum up - there is no way the Td5 could be described as a disaster,
>> ask a Toyota Surf 2.8 owners about disaters!
>>
>
> There is also one issue with the engine oil pump which could fail,
> resulting in a seized engine. I don't know the build timescale of the
> effected engines but this was/is an occasional nuisance ;-(
>
> Huw

I believe that was a very early problem, sorted under a recall for all
affected vehicles (after it appeared on Watchdog IIRC).

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.


 
Richard Brookman wrote:
> ...and Huw spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...
>
>
>> beamendsltd wrote:
>>> In message <[email protected]>
>>> Derry Argue <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> OK, I know the best 300Tdi's were the last ones (1997/98) but what
>>>> about Td5s?
>>>>
>>>> I am thinking of moving up and it looks as if it will be another
>>>> Defender but with one of those computer thingies in it.
>>>>
>>>> Are they really as big a disaster as everyone says? (Just been
>>>> reading the "I hate LRs" thread!). Or should I just try and find a
>>>> better '98 300Tdi?
>>>>
>>>> Derry
>>>
>>> Td5' are as good, if not better, that most, if not all, the
>>> competition.
>>>
>>> Very early ones had an issue with injectors/intector timing, but
>>> that as usual was blown up out of all proportion by the motoring
>>> press. There is an occasional problem with a plastic "dowel" lifting the
>>> head - again it's not every engine by any means and the feeling
>>> round here is that the problem is usualy a result of something else
>>> (i.e. overheating).
>>>
>>> The "throttle" problem of very early motors has been addresed - the
>>> accelerator pedal potentiometer response has been modded to give
>>> better low speed control.
>>>
>>> There was an issue with oil seeping back down the harness into the
>>> ECU and causing "interesting" running - there was/is a free engine
>>> harness upgrade from LR to solve this (basically a new type of
>>> grommet). Lack of torque at low revs is an issue for "commercial"
>>> users, but
>>> is not a show stopper.
>>>
>>> Most of the Td5 Defender owners we support are perfectly happy with
>>> the Td5, though quite a few would go for a 200/300Tdi if the choice
>>> were available - but then they really do want a tractor with
>>> fantastic road performance and no electronics!
>>>
>>> To sum up - there is no way the Td5 could be described as a
>>> disaster, ask a Toyota Surf 2.8 owners about disaters!
>>>
>>
>> There is also one issue with the engine oil pump which could fail,
>> resulting in a seized engine. I don't know the build timescale of the
>> effected engines but this was/is an occasional nuisance ;-(
>>
>> Huw
>
> I believe that was a very early problem, sorted under a recall for all
> affected vehicles (after it appeared on Watchdog IIRC).


I know of a Discovery that it happened to less than four months ago. Car had
40,000 miles on and was dealer serviced. The oil light came on and the
driver stopped immediately. Dealer diagnosed and changed the wiring loom due
to known problem. After restarting the engine they could not extinguish the
light and tried revving the hell out of it to see what happened. Guess what
happened?

Huw


 
....and Huw spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...

> I know of a Discovery that it happened to less than four months ago.
> Car had 40,000 miles on and was dealer serviced. The oil light came
> on and the driver stopped immediately. Dealer diagnosed and changed
> the wiring loom due to known problem. After restarting the engine
> they could not extinguish the light and tried revving the hell out of
> it to see what happened. Guess what happened?
>
> Huw

Ouch!

--
Rich
==============================

There are 10 kinds of people in the world - those who understand binary
and those who don't.


 
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