Future of TD5

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"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Sat, 2 Jul 2005 08:03:21 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>In message <[email protected]>
>> Tim Hobbs <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>> >With regard to the TD5, it's in house but rumour has it that Ford
>>> >diesels will be used in the Defender as TD5 won't meet emmission regs.
>>> >i assume it will be one of the Transit Engines.
>>> >
>>> >Sean
>>> >73FL74 101GS
>>> >1984 110 2.5D
>>> >Medway Military Vehicle Group
>>> >www.mmvg.net
>>>
>>> Nothing else would make any sense. They aren't likely to buy in an
>>> engine from elsewhere and it would be a brave man who suggested
>>> developing a brand new unit bespoke for the Defender!
>>>
>>>
>>
>>It would also be a brave man who didn't realise that a lot of
>>Defender owners (the ones that use them as Our Lord Wilkes intended)
>>are not impressed with the Td5's lack of low speed torque.
>>The 200/300Tdi's are sorely missed.
>
> Since I can't believe that they can't tune the thing for low-speed torque
> if
> they want to, is this driven by the emissions legislation?
>
> I note that the military carried on having 300 TDis after the introduction
> of the TD5, but I think that was due to the battlefield
> reliability/serviceability thing. Also, a mechanical pump TDi might be
> the
> only thing that'd survive (apart fomr a basic carb petrol engine) an EMP.

Main reason was the military's insistance on a single-battlefoeld-fuel
policy, i.e. it had to run on F34 Avtur, and the TD5 couldn't run on it, it
knackered the pumps. Hence the continued use of the TDi.
Badger.


 
On Saturday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Austin Shackles" wrote:

> I note that the military carried on having 300 TDis after the introduction
> of the TD5, but I think that was due to the battlefield
> reliability/serviceability thing. Also, a mechanical pump TDi might be the
> only thing that'd survive (apart fomr a basic carb petrol engine) an EMP.

Military vehicles of fifty years ago, when Land Rover got into that
market, were not so different from civilian vehicles in their essential
engineering.

Now the manufacturers have to pay attention to things like EMP and
electronics, and an ordinary 4x4 utility is as dependent on electronics
as a fighter plane.

We've already had people suggesting we're headed for the one-plane Air
Force, as costs rise.

Maybe that's why the King's Troop is there. Horses will be cheaper, and
they want to make sure somebody knows how to use them to move artillery.

And maybe that's why the RN seems to have more active Field Gun Racing
teams than they did in the days of the Royal Tournament.



--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
 

"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:db214844d%[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>
> "Huw" <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > On or around Fri, 01 Jul 2005 17:16:35 +0100, Tim Hobbs
>> > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>> >
>> >>>With regard to the TD5, it's in house but rumour has it that Ford
>> >>>diesels will be used in the Defender as TD5 won't meet emmission regs.
>> >>>i assume it will be one of the Transit Engines.
>> >>>
>> >>>Sean
>> >>>73FL74 101GS
>> >>>1984 110 2.5D
>> >>>Medway Military Vehicle Group
>> >>>www.mmvg.net
>> >>
>> >>Nothing else would make any sense. They aren't likely to buy in an
>> >>engine from elsewhere and it would be a brave man who suggested
>> >>developing a brand new unit bespoke for the Defender!
>> >
>> > I'd've thought they'd use the V6 from the disco.
>> >
>>
>> Far too expensive and not easily packaged into a Defender I would think.
>> As
>> it is the Defender is far too expensive to produce in the UK and they are
>> pushing their luck with present pricing. They need a cheaper engine and a
>> more economical way of building it. Since they are pretty well stuck as
>> far
>> as the present design goes they have two or three alternatives.
>> They can try and build it cheaper. This might mean cheaper [may need not
>> mean inferior] major components or it could mean building it somewhere
>> with
>> ultra low labour costs or a combination of both.
>> Or they could redesign the whole thing to be cheaper and easier to build
>> to
>> a consistently higher standard. They could combine this with other cost
>> savings as mentioned above.
>>
>> Since I don't believe the build volume can ever recover to levels that
>> would
>> justify significant investment in a new model then they are fairly stuck
>> with cost saving for the existing outmoded model while watching their
>> market
>> share flow away.
>
> Ford recently announced their intention to "re-capture" world markets.
> To do that they need to go back to basics and invest in a proper
> replacement for Defender (which is enjoying the highest sales for years
> at the moment) - or leave it alone. From talking to Ford engineers at
> various meetings/seminars a few years ago, just after they bought LR,
> the engineers are well aware of Defenders inconic status. I doubt
> that the marketing men are though, or have any concept of what the
> vehicles are *actually* used for.
>
>> It is possible that volume would build sufficiently given a new model to
>> justify investment in it but frankly the major agricultural markets are
>> in
>> such a poor state and the military market being increasingly choosy, it
>> is
>> hard for anyone to put forward a case for that investment.
>>
>
> The miltary market is dead - almost all export deals for Defender have
> been blocked one political issue or another (handing them on a plate
> to the competition who have no such scruples). An order for 500 vehicles
> would, I suspect, be declined if it involved any additional design, never
> mind the cost of the endless utterly pointless trials involved (the
> system that brought us the Reynolds-Boughton RB40 - 'nuff said).
>
> I don't know about other UK areas, but LR have completely re-established
> themselves in the Peaks, the move back to Defender is extremely noticable.
>
>> Huw
>
> Richard


Sales are extremely low in West Wales. A Defender sale is rare at some major
rural dealers but it would be wrong to say that sales were non existent..
The winners are those oriental pick-ups, mostly king cabs or double cab four
door models. Nissan and Isuzu in particular.

Huw


 

"Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Austin Shackles came up with the following;:
>> On or around Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:09:55 +0100, Tim Hobbs
>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:29:28 +0100, "Huw"
>>> <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Isn't the TD5 made by the Powertrain division of MG/Rover which has now
>>>> shut down?
>>>> I thought it was but have not heard of its demise yet. Maybe it is made
>>>> in-house by Land Rover then?
>>>> There are rumours that it will be replaced by a Ford four cylinder of
>>>> around 150hp before long. Anyone know about this?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Huw
>>>>
>>>
>>> I thought it was in-house, but ICBW.
>>>
>>> 2006 Freelander is going to need something in place of the BMW 2.0
>>> diesel. I'd guess something about 150hp, and viable to share with
>>> Mondeo / Focus / Volvo V50....
>>
>> Ford TDCi I should think.
>
> Which, in the Mondeo and Focus, certainly is a cracking engine. ICBA
> myself, but it might be interesting to look at the relative weights of a
> Mondeo and Freelander to see what the likely power difference might be ...
>
> --
> Paul ...
> (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
>
> Fantic 307 Trials on ebay 4558564657
> Beamish 250 Trials on ebay 4558878921

Can anybody answer the original question, ie where is the TD5 engine made?


--
T

Defender XS90


 
'T' wrote:

>
> "Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Austin Shackles came up with the following;:
>>> On or around Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:09:55 +0100, Tim Hobbs
>>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>>
>>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:29:28 +0100, "Huw"
>>>> <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Isn't the TD5 made by the Powertrain division of MG/Rover which has
>>>>> now shut down?
>>>>> I thought it was but have not heard of its demise yet. Maybe it is
>>>>> made in-house by Land Rover then?
>>>>> There are rumours that it will be replaced by a Ford four cylinder of
>>>>> around 150hp before long. Anyone know about this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Huw
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I thought it was in-house, but ICBW.
>>>>
>>>> 2006 Freelander is going to need something in place of the BMW 2.0
>>>> diesel. I'd guess something about 150hp, and viable to share with
>>>> Mondeo / Focus / Volvo V50....
>>>
>>> Ford TDCi I should think.
>>
>> Which, in the Mondeo and Focus, certainly is a cracking engine. ICBA
>> myself, but it might be interesting to look at the relative weights of a
>> Mondeo and Freelander to see what the likely power difference might be
>> ...
>>
>> --
>> Paul ...
>> (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
>>
>> Fantic 307 Trials on ebay 4558564657
>> Beamish 250 Trials on ebay 4558878921
>
> Can anybody answer the original question, ie where is the TD5 engine made?
>
>

In a factory.

Probably at Solihull.

P.
--
1992 200 TDI Disco - heavily modified
1982 V8 Range Rover - heavily corroded
2000 Rover 75 - heavily driven
1993 Lexus LS400 - just plain heavy on fuel
 
I seem to remember reading in an LR related magazine (LROI, LRM, LRW or LRE)
that it is an in-house built engine.
Definately has no connection with BMW as far as where it is built or
assembled.

Take care
Pantelis


"Paul S. Brown" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> 'T' wrote:
>
> >
> > "Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Austin Shackles came up with the following;:
> >>> On or around Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:09:55 +0100, Tim Hobbs
> >>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> >>>
> >>>> On Fri, 1 Jul 2005 10:29:28 +0100, "Huw"
> >>>> <hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Isn't the TD5 made by the Powertrain division of MG/Rover which has
> >>>>> now shut down?
> >>>>> I thought it was but have not heard of its demise yet. Maybe it is
> >>>>> made in-house by Land Rover then?
> >>>>> There are rumours that it will be replaced by a Ford four cylinder
of
> >>>>> around 150hp before long. Anyone know about this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Huw
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I thought it was in-house, but ICBW.
> >>>>
> >>>> 2006 Freelander is going to need something in place of the BMW 2.0
> >>>> diesel. I'd guess something about 150hp, and viable to share with
> >>>> Mondeo / Focus / Volvo V50....
> >>>
> >>> Ford TDCi I should think.
> >>
> >> Which, in the Mondeo and Focus, certainly is a cracking engine. ICBA
> >> myself, but it might be interesting to look at the relative weights of
a
> >> Mondeo and Freelander to see what the likely power difference might be
> >> ...
> >>
> >> --
> >> Paul ...
> >> (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
> >>
> >> Fantic 307 Trials on ebay 4558564657
> >> Beamish 250 Trials on ebay 4558878921
> >
> > Can anybody answer the original question, ie where is the TD5 engine
made?
> >
> >
>
> In a factory.
>
> Probably at Solihull.
>
> P.
> --
> 1992 200 TDI Disco - heavily modified
> 1982 V8 Range Rover - heavily corroded
> 2000 Rover 75 - heavily driven
> 1993 Lexus LS400 - just plain heavy on fuel


 
On or around Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:28:53 +0300, "Pantelis Giamarellos"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I seem to remember reading in an LR related magazine (LROI, LRM, LRW or LRE)
>that it is an in-house built engine.
>Definately has no connection with BMW as far as where it is built or
>assembled.

Annoyingly, bearing in mind that in general it seems quite good, BMW shot
down the TD4 2-litre and the TD6 3-litre versions that were planned, using
the same pistons, injectors etc. in differnt blocks. 'twas a good plan...

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Sun, 3 Jul 2005 16:28:53 +0300, "Pantelis Giamarellos"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I seem to remember reading in an LR related magazine (LROI, LRM, LRW or
>>LRE)
>>that it is an in-house built engine.
>>Definately has no connection with BMW as far as where it is built or
>>assembled.
>
> Annoyingly, bearing in mind that in general it seems quite good, BMW shot
> down the TD4 2-litre and the TD6 3-litre versions that were planned, using
> the same pistons, injectors etc. in differnt blocks. 'twas a good plan...
>

The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts do not
run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with no replaceable
bushes. Not my kind of engineering even though it may have a very long first
life. It better had, because its first life is likely its last, not like
traditional LR engineering.

Huw


 
Huw wrote:

> The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts do not
> run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with no replaceable
> bushes. Not my kind of engineering even though it may have a very long first
> life. It better had, because its first life is likely its last, not like
> traditional LR engineering.
>

....that said, if someone offered me one with knackered cam shaft
bearings, I'd have a bloody good go at fixing it..."All" you need is a
line-borer.

Steve
 

"steve Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Huw wrote:
>
>> The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts do not
>> run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with no
>> replaceable
>> bushes. Not my kind of engineering even though it may have a very long
>> first
>> life. It better had, because its first life is likely its last, not like
>> traditional LR engineering.
>>
>
> ...that said, if someone offered me one with knackered cam shaft
> bearings, I'd have a bloody good go at fixing it..."All" you need is a
> line-borer.
>
> Steve

Possibly. Unless there is some complication.
There are other cheap bits like the simplex chain drive to the head. It
looks exceptionally lightweight.
There are also some other bits that are exceptionally expensive, like the
unit injectors which, unless they come down in price significantly, will be
like expensive albatrosses around the vehicles neck and therefore a huge
drag on resale value on vehicles of a certain age. Of course an owner can
hope that they never go wrong and that any potential customer for his ten
year old will remain in blissful ignorance of their potential replacement
cost.
Maybe I worry too much.

Huw


 
On or around Sun, 3 Jul 2005 23:17:48 +0100, "Huw"
<hedydd[nospam]@tiscali.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>Possibly. Unless there is some complication.
>There are other cheap bits like the simplex chain drive to the head. It
>looks exceptionally lightweight.

then again, you could make similar comments about the toothed belts that
everyone else uses. If the chain's of decent quality, and has a proper
adjuster, it should last quite a long time. Consider how long bicycle
chains last, generally in far sub-optimal operating conditions.

>There are also some other bits that are exceptionally expensive, like the
>unit injectors which, unless they come down in price significantly, will be
>like expensive albatrosses around the vehicles neck and therefore a huge
>drag on resale value on vehicles of a certain age. Of course an owner can
>hope that they never go wrong and that any potential customer for his ten
>year old will remain in blissful ignorance of their potential replacement
>cost.

I suspect that all the new generation of engines (those from about 2000
onwards) are going to prove expensive to repair if and when they need it,
though. The days of small back-street garages with a bod who knew how to
fix things are sadly on the way out, along with the home mechanic who bodged
his way through life. We'll all be restricted to ever-older vehicles and
the costs of getting the newer ones repaired will doubtless increase.
Buggrit.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
In message <[email protected]>
steve Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:

> Huw wrote:
>
> > The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts do not
> > run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with no replaceable
> > bushes. Not my kind of engineering even though it may have a very long first
> > life. It better had, because its first life is likely its last, not like
> > traditional LR engineering.
> >
>
> ...that said, if someone offered me one with knackered cam shaft
> bearings, I'd have a bloody good go at fixing it..."All" you need is a
> line-borer.
>
> Steve

Indeed - Jap motorcycles have done this for years, as anyone who
owned a G5 will most likely know! Anyone remember Jock Kerr Motorcycle
developments.........

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 

"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:a7651a854d%[email protected]...
> In message <[email protected]>
> steve Taylor <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Huw wrote:
>>
>> > The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts do
>> > not
>> > run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with no
>> > replaceable
>> > bushes. Not my kind of engineering even though it may have a very long
>> > first
>> > life. It better had, because its first life is likely its last, not
>> > like
>> > traditional LR engineering.
>> >
>>
>> ...that said, if someone offered me one with knackered cam shaft
>> bearings, I'd have a bloody good go at fixing it..."All" you need is a
>> line-borer.
>>
>> Steve
>
> Indeed - Jap motorcycles have done this for years, as anyone who
> owned a G5 will most likely know! Anyone remember Jock Kerr Motorcycle
> developments.........

Yes, remember the name but never had any dealings. In the bike shop where I
first started working, we used to bore and bush a lot of Honda OHC engines,
CB125 being the most common to see this wear on, closely followed by
CB175/200. C90 was also pretty bad for wear, but seemed to just keep on
going, usually until the frame corroded out just in front of the rear shock
mounts, then the cam 'bearing' wear was the least of your problems!!
Badger.


 
so Huw was, like...
>
> The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts do
> not run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with no
> replaceable bushes.

> Huw

Isn't that also true of the esteemed V8?

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> so Huw was, like...
>>
>> The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts do
>> not run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with no
>> replaceable bushes.
>
>> Huw
>
> Isn't that also true of the esteemed V8?

Not exactly, the V8 cam runs in 5 bearing shells that according to Landrover
/ Rover are not user-replaceable. Bearing sets are available from many
aftermarket suppliers and can be removed / installed using machined adaptors
and a low-force press.
Badger.


 
so Badger was, like...
> "Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> so Huw was, like...
>>>
>>> The TD5 is a very cheaply built engine. For instance the camshafts
>>> do not run in bearings as such but run in the machined casting with
>>> no replaceable bushes.
>>
>>> Huw
>>
>> Isn't that also true of the esteemed V8?
>
> Not exactly, the V8 cam runs in 5 bearing shells that according to
> Landrover / Rover are not user-replaceable. Bearing sets are
> available from many aftermarket suppliers and can be removed /
> installed using machined adaptors and a low-force press.
> Badger.

Your reply makes me glad I put my comment as a question rather than a
statement ;-)

Of course you're right.


--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
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