Evidence Based Arguments - Was: <gloom>

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M

Mother

Guest
Adafort init...

Anyone fancy collaborating on a little web video?

I have an idea around taking a Land Rover V8 - like Neil's, or
possibly something with a slightly higher profile, maybe something
Purple weighing in at over 4 tonne - and doing some balanced
scientific testing - of, say emissions - measured with a calibrated
MOT grade instrument.

I'd them like to take aforementioned instrument to, say a school and
invite parents in 'small run-around', 'family' and 'MPV' type cars to
be tested. Maybe also take it to a supermarket car park on a Saturday
and again, invite shoppers to participate.

Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
available, could be an interesting tool for education...

(I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
run-arounds!)


--
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005
 
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:01:55 +0000, Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net>
scribbled the following nonsense:

>Adafort init...
>
>Anyone fancy collaborating on a little web video?
>
>I have an idea around taking a Land Rover V8 - like Neil's, or
>possibly something with a slightly higher profile, maybe something
>Purple weighing in at over 4 tonne - and doing some balanced
>scientific testing - of, say emissions - measured with a calibrated
>MOT grade instrument.
>
>I'd them like to take aforementioned instrument to, say a school and
>invite parents in 'small run-around', 'family' and 'MPV' type cars to
>be tested. Maybe also take it to a supermarket car park on a Saturday
>and again, invite shoppers to participate.
>
>Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
>available, could be an interesting tool for education...
>
>(I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
>grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
>run-arounds!)

sounds fun, during the week is out, but weekends sound good.
--

Simon Isaacs

Peterborough 4x4 Club Newsletter Editor and Webmaster
Green Lane Association (GLASS) Financial Director
101 Ambi, undergoing camper conversion www.simoni.co.uk
1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an offer!
Suzuki SJ410 (Wife's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT
Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next
1993 200 TDi Discovery
1994 200 TDi Discovery body sheel, being bobbed and modded.....
 
Mother" <"@ {mother} @ came up with the following;:
> Adafort init...
>
> Anyone fancy collaborating on a little web video?
>
> I have an idea around taking a Land Rover V8 - like Neil's, or
> possibly something with a slightly higher profile, maybe something
> Purple weighing in at over 4 tonne - and doing some balanced
> scientific testing - of, say emissions - measured with a calibrated
> MOT grade instrument.
>
> I'd them like to take aforementioned instrument to, say a school and
> invite parents in 'small run-around', 'family' and 'MPV' type cars to
> be tested. Maybe also take it to a supermarket car park on a Saturday
> and again, invite shoppers to participate.
>
> Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
> available, could be an interesting tool for education...
>
> (I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
> grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
> run-arounds!)

You could use, as a tester maybe, my Disco 300Tdi and swmbo's Vauxhall Corsa
1.4 GLS .... I know it's not V8 and it's not normally very shiny and
polished, but it is what a lot of people might recognise as a 'Chelsea
Tractor' ... ;)

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!


 
Paul - xxx wrote:
> Mother" <"@ {mother} @ came up with the following;:
>> Adafort init...
>>
>> Anyone fancy collaborating on a little web video?
>>
>> I have an idea around taking a Land Rover V8 - like Neil's, or
>> possibly something with a slightly higher profile, maybe something
>> Purple weighing in at over 4 tonne - and doing some balanced
>> scientific testing - of, say emissions - measured with a calibrated
>> MOT grade instrument.
>>
>> I'd them like to take aforementioned instrument to, say a school and
>> invite parents in 'small run-around', 'family' and 'MPV' type cars to
>> be tested. Maybe also take it to a supermarket car park on a
>> Saturday and again, invite shoppers to participate.
>>
>> Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
>> available, could be an interesting tool for education...
>>
>> (I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
>> grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
>> run-arounds!)
>
> You could use, as a tester maybe, my Disco 300Tdi and swmbo's
> Vauxhall Corsa 1.4 GLS .... I know it's not V8 and it's not normally very shiny
> and
> polished, but it is what a lot of people might recognise as a 'Chelsea
> Tractor' ... ;)

I don't think even the most blinkered treehugger would confuse a Corsa as a
Chelsea Tractor!

--
"He who says it cannot be done is advised not to interrupt her doing
it."

If at first you don't succeed,
maybe skydiving's not for you!


 
On Thu, 09 Feb 2006 19:01:55 +0000, Mother <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net>
wrote:

>Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
>available, could be an interesting tool for education...
>
>(I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
>grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
>run-arounds!)

As a slightly related issue, I'd like to see evidence pro or con my
opinion that running an old car 'forever' is better (in terms of total
pollution/waste created) than someone who keeps buying new cars.

I'm running a 25 year old saloon as a daily driver currently on LPG,
but the same thing/argument could be said of many landrover drivers..

 
Mother" <"@ {mother} @ wrote:
> Adafort init...
>
> Anyone fancy collaborating on a little web video?
>
> I have an idea around taking a Land Rover V8 - like Neil's, or
> possibly something with a slightly higher profile, maybe something
> Purple weighing in at over 4 tonne - and doing some balanced
> scientific testing - of, say emissions - measured with a calibrated
> MOT grade instrument.
>
> I'd them like to take aforementioned instrument to, say a school and
> invite parents in 'small run-around', 'family' and 'MPV' type cars to
> be tested. Maybe also take it to a supermarket car park on a Saturday
> and again, invite shoppers to participate.
>
> Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
> available, could be an interesting tool for education...
>
> (I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
> grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
> run-arounds!)

I'm in!!!

--
Subaru WRX
Range Rover LSE (Bob) FOR SALE!!!
Range Rover 4.6 HSE (The Tank!)

'"I don't remember asking you a goddam thing"


 
Well don't look at me, I only get through an MOT on emissions because of age
and luck


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes


believe in the laws of mathematics"


"Mother" <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> Adafort init...
>
> Anyone fancy collaborating on a little web video?
>
> I have an idea around taking a Land Rover V8 - like Neil's, or
> possibly something with a slightly higher profile, maybe something
> Purple weighing in at over 4 tonne - and doing some balanced
> scientific testing - of, say emissions - measured with a calibrated
> MOT grade instrument.
>
> I'd them like to take aforementioned instrument to, say a school and
> invite parents in 'small run-around', 'family' and 'MPV' type cars to
> be tested. Maybe also take it to a supermarket car park on a Saturday
> and again, invite shoppers to participate.
>
> Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
> available, could be an interesting tool for education...
>
> (I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
> grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
> run-arounds!)
>
>
> --
> "We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
> of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
> increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
> In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005


 
On 2006-02-09, Tom Woods <[email protected]> wrote:

> As a slightly related issue, I'd like to see evidence pro or con my
> opinion that running an old car 'forever' is better (in terms of
> total pollution/waste created) than someone who keeps buying new
> cars.

On that tree-hugger website posted in another thread recently (memory
fades) it was reckoned that making a car produces just under two
thirds of the pollution the car is ever likely to produce throughout
its life, with one third being driving emissions and the remaining
smidgen being the cost of trashing it. There were references in the
article to studies that might be worth you following up.

Now if only I could remember the article URL ;-)

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 

"Mother" <"@ {mother} @"@101fc.net> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> Adafort init...
>
> Anyone fancy collaborating on a little web video?
>
> I have an idea around taking a Land Rover V8 - like Neil's, or
> possibly something with a slightly higher profile, maybe something
> Purple weighing in at over 4 tonne - and doing some balanced
> scientific testing - of, say emissions - measured with a calibrated
> MOT grade instrument.
>
> I'd them like to take aforementioned instrument to, say a school and
> invite parents in 'small run-around', 'family' and 'MPV' type cars to
> be tested. Maybe also take it to a supermarket car park on a Saturday
> and again, invite shoppers to participate.
>
> Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
> available, could be an interesting tool for education...
>
> (I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
> grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
> run-arounds!)

I think you need to be _very_ sure of your science, or it could backfire
on you (like an lpg Rangey).

MoT machines measure percentages, not totals. To a first order guess,
exhaust volumes are proportional to fuel use (mpg, litres/hour, cubic
furlongs/fortnight); if a certain large purple machine achieves 12mpg,
and a small petrol car 36mpg over the same journey, then you'd need to
achieve under a third of the "MoT" emissions to even partially prove
your point, and, with all due respect to large, purple etc, I doubt if
you'll achieve that.

But "MoT" emissions are only part of the story; some green people are
worried about CO2, and the total quantity of this is almost entirely a
function of total fuel burnt - so you're in trouble again.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all in favour of appropriate use of 4x4s and
other large cars - with a Range Rover and a Bentley out there I could
hardly say anything else, but I wouldn't claim they're "low emission".
Anyway, a propos of CO2, I'm a great believer in Le Chatelier's
principle (anyone else remember their A-level chemistry?)

"If, to a system in equilibrium, a constraint be applied, a change will
take place which tends to nullify that constraint". So if there's more
CO2, trees and other plants will grow faster to take it up.


--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. feb2006mainbeam.co.uk)***
Car Transport by Tiltbed Trailer - based near Derby

 
On or around Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:12:21 -0000, "Nige"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>I'm in!!!


Bring the WRX, I bet that kicks out some heavy CO2 if you boot it.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'
 
On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 23:03:52 -0000, "Larry" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Well don't look at me, I only get through an MOT on emissions because of age
>and luck

They're s'posed to test the car, Larry... :)


--
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005
 
On or around Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:32:59 -0000, "Autolycus"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Don't get me wrong: I'm all in favour of appropriate use of 4x4s and
>other large cars - with a Range Rover and a Bentley out there I could
>hardly say anything else, but I wouldn't claim they're "low emission".
>Anyway, a propos of CO2, I'm a great believer in Le Chatelier's
>principle (anyone else remember their A-level chemistry?)

then again, the large purple etc. probably only burns a smallish amount of
fuel due to the amount it gets used.

I see there are new plans for cunning coal fired power stations which don't
belch out CO2. Mind, that doesn't address the use of fossil fuels, but it
does prevent them adding to the CO2 burden. What you really need is a use
for CO2. Making heavy baloons, that hang downwards, perhaps.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
Mother wrote:

> Vague idea at present, but if done correctly, and made publicly
> available, could be an interesting tool for education...

I think you might be best forgetting about this train of thought, as
Autolycus says it's very likely to backfire. There are other ways of
pointing out how 4x4s are better for the enviroment in some cases than
other vehicles but everyone's situation is different... emissions at
individual tailpipes is inviting mockery as they are going to be
relatively poor compared to most other vehicles, and it doesn't take
into account vehicle's useage.

> (I can say with some degree of certainty that 4+ tonne of purple
> grannyfrightener has lower emissions than a good number of small
> run-arounds!)

Are you running EFi with closed loop, wide band lambda control and a
catalytic converter? If not, then I wouldn't dare to challenge
anything that was relatively recent. Remember Morgan stopped using
Rover 3.9 and 4.6 V8s citing EU emission legislation as the reason.
Your average supermarket Toyota Yaris will be _very_ clean.

Of course, doing it in a TV report style, take a nice warm Grumble,
find anything that's over 10 years old and looks like it hasn't ever
been serviced, start it from cold, and take your readings to "prove"
your point!

Regards

William MacLeod

 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around Thu, 9 Feb 2006 22:12:21 -0000, "Nige"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>
>> I'm in!!!
>
>
> Bring the WRX, I bet that kicks out some heavy CO2 if you boot it.

It isnt the best in that terms! Wonder against the 4.6!

Nihge


--
--
Subaru WRX
Range Rover LSE (Bob) FOR SALE!!!
Range Rover 4.6 HSE (The Tank!)

'"I don't remember asking you a goddam thing"


 
On or around 10 Feb 2006 11:30:03 -0800, "[email protected]"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Are you running EFi with closed loop, wide band lambda control and a
>catalytic converter? If not, then I wouldn't dare to challenge
>anything that was relatively recent. Remember Morgan stopped using
>Rover 3.9 and 4.6 V8s citing EU emission legislation as the reason.
>Your average supermarket Toyota Yaris will be _very_ clean.

I rather thought that the supply of RV8 was about to dry up. The engine,
with cats and modern injection system, was no doubt as clean as any other
with cats and modern injection system.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"I am tired and sick of war. Its glory is all moonshine... War is hell"
Gen. Sherman (1820-1891) Attr. words in Address at Michigan Military
Academy, 19 June 1879.
 

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Fri, 10 Feb 2006 08:32:59 -0000, "Autolycus"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
snip

> I see there are new plans for cunning coal fired power stations which
> don't
> belch out CO2. Mind, that doesn't address the use of fossil fuels, but it
> does prevent them adding to the CO2 burden. What you really need is a use
> for CO2. Making heavy baloons, that hang downwards, perhaps.
> --
They do still belch out CO2 just that they intend to capture it and pump it
underground. Goodness knows where it will go then. Whatever happens lecky
will still cost an arm and a leg.

Peter.


 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> I rather thought that the supply of RV8 was about to dry up. The engine,
> with cats and modern injection system, was no doubt as clean as any other
> with cats and modern injection system.

Land Rover now has an engine which has variable camshaft phasing and
DOHC amongst other things, that means the computer can control its 32
valves more efficiently than the old 4.6, so with all the fiddling in
the world you are not going to get the old 4.6 to be as efficient as
the new 4.4. Sure you could have it tuned for similar emissions at one
particular load/rpm but that doesn't mean too much, your emissions
start when you start your vehicle, and end when you shut it off and I
think you'd find a significant difference between a P38 and a new RR if
you were to bag the emissions over a journey.

Regards

William MacLeod

 
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