Dream Defenders

Hi All,

I am starting a new business that will involve modifying defenders and uprating all of the running gear... can't say too much about that at the moment but will be electric... but along the way I would like to also improve some little niggles with the cars.

For me some of the annoying things with the defenders I've been in over the years are things like the pathetic windscreen wipers (never parking properly and also not having a quick enough speed on motorways), cramped right foot up against the side, nowhere for your right elbow, exposed door hinges which are both easy to knick and also ruin the lines of the car and the transmission tunnel cramping leg room.
There are loads of other niggles out there but I am interested to get the opinion of you lot to see if there are any other gripes that we could remove along the way to make a more enjoyable defender?

So the question is, in your dream defender, if money and manufacturing were no object, what would you change/add/remove to improve the car while still keeping it fundamentally a defender?

more leg room for me personally would be a number 1 priority, my knees get wedged against the dash LOL

Henry_b said:

more leg room for me personally would be a number 1 priority, my knees get wedged against the dash LOL

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Would that be as simple as having seats that go back further? Or is the dash location the problem?

george man said:

Would that be as simple as having seats that go back further? Or is the dash location the problem?

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Moving the seat would suffice I should think, not really a problem for most defender owners but at over 6'5 its tight ha!

george man said:

Hi All,

I am starting a new business that will involve modifying defenders and uprating all of the running gear... can't say too much about that at the moment but will be electric... but along the way I would like to also improve some little niggles with the cars.

For me some of the annoying things with the defenders I've been in over the years are things like the pathetic windscreen wipers (never parking properly and also not having a quick enough speed on motorways), cramped right foot up against the side, nowhere for your right elbow, exposed door hinges which are both easy to knick and also ruin the lines of the car and the transmission tunnel cramping leg room.
There are loads of other niggles out there but I am interested to get the opinion of you lot to see if there are any other gripes that we could remove along the way to make a more enjoyable defender?

So the question is, in your dream defender, if money and manufacturing were no object, what would you change/add/remove to improve the car while still keeping it fundamentally a defender?

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My first annoyance would be the electric motor you are planning on fitting. If there is not a puff of black smoke out the back when you change gear then it is it not a defender.

I do not want to appear negative but I do not think you are going to find what you are looking for on this forum. Most people here accept that a defender is not perfect but it is exactly for that reason that we love them and drive them. I am also going to suggest that with what you are looking for the defender is fundamentally not suitable and if you want an improved defender in the way you are talking about it has already been done, buy one of the new ones or the ineos grenadier.

Once again please dont take this the wrong way but see my responses to the list you have included below:

Pathetic windscreen wipers (never parking properly and also not having a quick enough speed on motorways),
This is entirely a maintenance issue. If they are correctly maintained they do park correctly and at the fasted speed are perfectly capable of clearing the screen in heavy rain on motorway conditions

Cramped right foot up against the side, nowhere for your right elbow,
Both of these are caused by the same thing and have the same solution. They are casued by the desire of car owners to have a defender feel and drive like a car rather than the light truck that is is. Therefore larger and thicker doors were required to house windows that went up and down and central locking. The fix is to go back to what they were originally designed with which is the split Doors with sliding windows. This gives you space for you right foot and for your elbow. the only caveat is the door tops need to the the later aluminum version rather than the earlier steel version that rotted away.

exposed door hinges which are both easy to knick and also ruin the lines of the car
if you are worried about the hinges ruining the lines of the car what are your feeling to some of the standard kit that is fitted to a utility vehicle to allow for additional utility e.g. snorkel, ladders, roof racks, bull bars, wheel carriers.
if you feel the hinges are spoiling the look of the vehicle you are fundamentally looking at the wrong vehicle


With what you are talking about doing this forum is not the correct target market and I suspect you will find most on here will have similar views to myself. You are basically trying to pitch a shiny Chelsea tractor version of a defender (which lots of company's already produce) to a group of old farmers that run a land rover they have had for twenty years and believe the pinnacle of design was the series 2.

george man said:

So the question is, in your dream defender, if money and manufacturing were no object, what would you change/add/remove to improve the car while still keeping it fundamentally a defender?

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To answer your question I have just rebuilt my dream defender for the second time after a fire (link). There are only three things that I would change to make it perfect:
The roof and door seals are not as watertight as I would like - this is not a fundamental change and just requires a little more work and fettling from myself.
The fuel economy but not the engine, I love my tdi and do not want another engine, I love the black smoke out the back on gear change or foot to the floor, the growly exhaust note, and the turbo whine. I either want 60mpg or I want diesel to cost 80p per liter.
The final change I would make is for the wife to like it as much as I do - once again not a design change.

Second all of the above, plus my wife likes the usefulness of our Ninety and is simple to operate.
If you can design an electric 4x4 with the off road ability of Defender with all the comforts you note I recon folk will beat a path to your door but hurry because others are already working on it.
Just leave the old trucks alone, love or hate them they are what they are.

george man said:

For me some of the annoying things with the defenders I've been in over the years are things like the pathetic windscreen wipers (never parking properly and also not having a quick enough speed on motorways),

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Mine work fine although to be honest I don't do a lot of motorway driving with my Defender.
If your windscreen wipers never park and don't work properly (as @dag019 says) this is a maintenance issue.

george man said:

cramped right foot up against the side, nowhere for your right elbow, exposed door hinges which are both easy to knick and also ruin the lines of the car and the transmission tunnel cramping leg room.

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To be honest I like that about the car, the driving position is fine, open the window and it's easy to see where the side of the car/wheels are.
The door hinges don't ruin the lines, they are the lines.
I have some MUD rails beneath the seats and the half-cutaway tub bulkhead, so have loads of room.

george man said:

There are loads of other niggles out there but I am interested to get the opinion of you lot to see if there are any other gripes that we could remove along the way to make a more enjoyable defender?

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"Loads of other niggles" loads of people complaining you mean ?

Fixing things and keeping it running right is why we have a Defender, IMO they kinda went downhill when the fitted an ECU. Looking at your post i'd say LR tried to make the car fit your opinion of what it 'should' have been ... not what is is.
All the things you find annoying I really like.

george man said:

So the question is, in your dream defender, if money and manufacturing were no object, what would you change/add/remove to improve the car while still keeping it fundamentally a defender?

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A bit more thought re bi-metalic rusting and galvanised chassis/bulkheads, remove the electronics and put the bulkhead air conditioning flaps back.

miktdish said:

A bit more thought re bi-metalic rusting and galvanised chassis/bulkheads, remove the electronics and put the bulkhead air conditioning flaps back.

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^^ cannot agree more with this.
Galvanize everything that is steel. On mine everything that is steel other than the axle tubes and suspension arms has been galvanized.

Remove all electronics and have a fully mechanical vehicle. (if you pull the solenoid you can drive a pre-td5 defender without a battery, all you need to do is bump start). Electronics serve no useful purpose and just introduce failure points that are difficult to diagnose and even more difficult to field repair and/or fix. Their only purpose is to meet modern emissions regulations and prevent home maintenance.

What I like about my 21st century defender, is it is more refined than its predecessors but is still a defender. And some of the earlier issues like elbow room, leg and right foot room were sorted. What I like most is the way it still drives like a 70's car, needing proper driver input and not relying on button selected driving modes. Only a couple of days ago I was contemplating owning an electric car, but rapidly ruled it out as hopelessly impractical for long journeys and lack of public charging points, time taken to recharge etc etc there's enough threads on this elsewhere. And I agree with the comments above by the other posters, an electric defender with its character erased is not for me.

The issues with the defender are what they are. The biggest issues are the non-galvanised chassis and bulkhead, which are the Achilles heel of the defender and its predecessors. And water ingress. Otherwise, if I wanted more foot room and elbow space and a very economical car, I’d buy something that has it as standard. I started my driving many years ago with a series 3 with flapping door tops, noisy transmission and interesting brakes. In comparison, my current 90 with retrofitted Tdi is luxury but I accept the other issues around it’s design.

Your bloody dreaming if you think you can build a business on refining old Defenders with electric motors theres 2 on here doing converstions and are know having problems with insurance quotes wonder why...we have a company here coolvintage that charge eyewatering prices for a restomod that does not justify the end result...

Knappster said:

I started my driving many years ago with a series 3 with flapping door tops, noisy transmission and interesting brakes.

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Interesting brakes ....

george man said:

Hi All,

I am starting a new business that will involve modifying defenders and uprating all of the running gear... can't say too much about that at the moment but will be electric... but along the way I would like to also improve some little niggles with the cars.

For me some of the annoying things with the defenders I've been in over the years are things like the pathetic windscreen wipers (never parking properly and also not having a quick enough speed on motorways), cramped right foot up against the side, nowhere for your right elbow, exposed door hinges which are both easy to knick and also ruin the lines of the car and the transmission tunnel cramping leg room.
There are loads of other niggles out there but I am interested to get the opinion of you lot to see if there are any other gripes that we could remove along the way to make a more enjoyable defender?

So the question is, in your dream defender, if money and manufacturing were no object, what would you change/add/remove to improve the car while still keeping it fundamentally a defender?

Click to expand...

Niggles sir tis just characters to us mere sufferers. Wait till you get the wet knee problems or endless rattling noise go on and on or the window that just doesn't seem to fit. Mere character for the first second third fourth

saxavordian said:

Niggles sir tis just characters to us mere sufferers. Wait till you get the wet knee problems or endless rattling noise go on and on or the window that just doesn't seem to fit. Mere character for the first second third fourth

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Ohhh the wet knee! I'd forgotten about that!! I also used to get wet calves when water would come up into the battery box and fire forwards!

Thanks for all the feedback so far, I completely understand an electric classic defender isn't for everyone and there are definitely other forums that would have given a better reception but having used this forum since getting my first defender back at the age of 18, I wanted to get advice from genuine land rover enthusiasts.

I accept that the price will wbe limiting for most to start with. Battery technology is still expensive but this is starting to change, albeit slowly! Also the introduction of more electronics will put off a lot of people because of the chance of failure, especially if you're off road or on an expedition and if I'm honest this is something that worries me a little so will need to do lits of testing and abusing to completely satisfy myself. We are planning to offer a range extender option that will allow people to travel further into the wild without the need for a charger but if the ecu is as temperamental as the td5 then that will be an issue.

I would be interested to see what the response would have been if I said I was planning to stick a more reliable ICE power train in, one that isbpretty bombproof and offers better mpg, a smoother driving experience with reduced vibration and something that didn't require fettling now and then to get it to start.
There are plenty of products and companies out there trying to improve the defender experience, to reduce stress for people who only have a defender or increase the drive time for those that have a normal car as well and I think its always good to ask the community what else would be useful in case there is something missing... I'll get working on that wet knee problem

I would say a defender is a bag of wakn not matter what you do to it.

To be fair the best way to improve a Defender is to buy a Series 2a with a petrol engine.
Most improvements were a step backwards since then.

george man said:

Hi All,

I am starting a new business that will involve modifying defenders and uprating all of the running gear... can't say too much about that at the moment but will be electric... but along the way I would like to also improve some little niggles with the cars.

For me some of the annoying things with the defenders I've been in over the years are things like the pathetic windscreen wipers (never parking properly and also not having a quick enough speed on motorways), cramped right foot up against the side, nowhere for your right elbow, exposed door hinges which are both easy to knick and also ruin the lines of the car and the transmission tunnel cramping leg room.
There are loads of other niggles out there but I am interested to get the opinion of you lot to see if there are any other gripes that we could remove along the way to make a more enjoyable defender?

So the question is, in your dream defender, if money and manufacturing were no object, what would you change/add/remove to improve the car while still keeping it fundamentally a defender?

Click to expand...

There is no such thing as a dream Defender, although there are many nightmare Defenders.

If you want a Land Rover, get a Land Rover. A Series Land Rover.

Electric conversion is already available and is stupid money.
Pretty sure you would need an IVA would you not?
Guess it also needs a specialist inspection for the HV system?
Seem like tax evading hobby cars for footballists.

Cant say I support you at all. Dont start taking classic cars and fitting electric motors.

Totally defeats the point of a Defender being a "go anywhere" vehicle. Stuck to the probably 150m range....

Heh, I bet you donned your asbestos undies before posting this thread.
I'm in a small minority in that I like and own Landrovers but also have a small ev that the wife mostly uses for nipping to town and to keep the wear off more fun cars (Seat Mii) and its ok. But a 90? Kind of defeats the utilitarian aspect so I'm with the other peasants holding pitchforks.

Being constructive, the things I would consider about my 90 if I had to ev'd it are really to do with how the conversion has been done.

You have to do a electric heater conversion anyway so a improved one with ac that can be directed to cabin heat or just clear the windscreen while your fixing your wet knee issue, and also fit heated seats because running the cabin heating on the ev kills its range in winter when battery chemistry alters characteristics because of the lower temps, but you don't need full cabin heat once off "shore power" with heated seats unless the journey is very long and its extremely cold. I can drive our little ev for its full (reduced) range in winter with just the seat heating in minus temperatures.
Range and cold weather issues are also what I would be most focused on finding out if I was a purchaser, as when its snowing I want to use my 90 instead of the other car because its more suited the conditions, but if battery chemistry means I'm not going to make the journey comfortably or while towing a big trailer it defeats the point of it and I might as well take a "normal" car.
I'd want to know what towing a load does to range too in advance. No I'm not stupid, I know its going to be bad, but I need to know how bad to know how usable it will actually be and work around it.
Weight is also a big factor, the base vehicle is not exactly light to start with, and I can't see it not being even more lardy and having any usable range in cold weather in this respect.

I'd also consider offering a option to slow recharge/recover it when it inevitably runs out of charge offroad or somewhere awkward. This sounds like a tongue in cheek dig but its based on practical experience as we live out in the middle of nowhere, a couple of times I've had that "I'm trying to limp home, but get the granny charger & the genny loaded ready in case I don't make it" call from the wife mid winter.

Small points, but from practical experience they're what I'd use to assess any converted vehicles on amongst other criteria.