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Disco II - TD5: Sunk Cost Phallusy

Discussion in 'Members Vehicles/Projects' started by Deanod, Dec 27, 2020.

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  1. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    Hi! I'm new to the Forums and just starting on a new project.

    It's a Discovery TD5 from 2000. Recently purchased slightly before Christmas.
    IMG_6199.JPEG IMG_6191.JPEG IMG_6198.JPEG

    It was bought with known issues with the brakes and a water leak but that didn't seem like a problem I couldn't fix.

    HOWEVER - after making it about half an hour down the road all the water shot out of the header tank. This then happened every 20 minutes from Salsibury all the way to West Cornwall.
    5DE703E8-F1AE-4B64-98AA-D8533D4684D6.jpg

    I'm going to update the issues as I begin to reslove them. Below is my best guess of what jobs to do and in what order. I'm not entierly green car-wise but in no way experienced with this vehicle at all. It's going to be an adventure!

    Somehow it does have an MOT until late next year so as soon as I'm happy with it I'm going to make it my daily driver.


    The Big Issues:

    1. Issue One – overheating and lost water (Head Gasket?!)

    2. Windscreen cracked badly

    3. Brakes slightly functional (at least one of them works – probably front right?)

    4. Rust on Chassis – Seems to be surface rust?

    5. Big ‘Ol Nails in rear tyres

    6. Headlights and most other lights work occasionally

    7. Water coming out of seatbelt! And probably lots of other places.


    The issues after those:

    1. Front bumper in very poor condition – structural duct tape in attendance

    2. Rear window wiper non functional

    3. Interior kinda damp

    4. Only one key – Make more?

    5. Bits missing from engine bay

    6. All of the skylights are badly stuck in with Mastic

    7. No heater (this is probably connected to overheating / head gasket issues)


    The not so big issues

    1. Central Diff Lock selector desired

    2. Stereo and speakers would be nice

    3. Paint is in various conditions

    4. Interior damaged and loose wires – make new one?

    5. Find a better interior?

    6. When is the Hydraulic self-levelling system going to give up?


    The sexy bits:

    1. New bumper (eBay Special?)

    2. More Power Baby?

    3. Lift Kit to replace self levelling system

    4. Catch can and new hoses for engine bay

    5. Clean and Paint

    6. Winch

    7. Snorkel !!!

    8. Roof Rack

    9. Winch?

    10. Lightbars on everything
     
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  2. DefenderPilot

    DefenderPilot Well-Known Member

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    You might want to check out the water pump before you decide the head gasket is gone. I had overheating issues for a long time with my Defender TD5 and changing the head gasket twice didn't do anything. I eventually found a small weep coming from the water pump housing and thought, "well, it looks like nothing but might as well try it". After I changed the water pump my overheating issues went away. I never saw it because it was in the void between the water pump and the power steering pump. If you're not familiar with it they are both housed in the same bracket, which also has the aircon pump on the top, if you have that option. You need to take it off the engine to see it.
     
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  3. dieseldog69

    dieseldog69 Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

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    Thats a nice looking truck, nice to see a Td5 Disco thread, not seen one for a while.

    Rear chassis rails like to disintegrate is about all I can say.
     
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  4. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    Issue One: Overheating – Is it the head gasket?


    (short version – no heat from vents, pressurised radiator coolant, water boiling out in about 10 – 20 minutes from cold. No exhaust gas detected but plenty of gas vented in rad system. Bleeding coolant system now a fine artform. Assumed head gasket issue after replacing leaking radiator)



    Backstory: Before buying the Landy the pervious owner said there was an issue with losing water and they attempted to fix this by putting in a new hard pipe under the radiator. About 20 minutes into on the drive home the heat suddenly shot upwards and we pulled over.

    After letting the engine cool for about 40 – 60 minutes we topped it up and duly went on our way. The next 9-ish hours were in 20 minute intervals between service stations between Salisbury and Cornwall before losing the water. We tried to bleed the system each time it was refilled via the ‘Land Rover discovery 2 TD5 coolant bleed trick!!’


    No heat from the heater matrix during the drive despite the bleeding technique. Heater did work occasionally when going uphill but this was very rarely, now not at all.


    We (long suffering friend George and I) discovered that the water was shooting out of the header tank overflow on the drive home. This was partly due to the cap having no pressure relief valve inbuilt so assumed replaced from another vehicle. This has now been replaced for a pressure relief version.
    IMG_6127.JPEG IMG_6131.JPEG IMG_6126.JPEG

    We read on the LandyZone forums that the waterpump may be at fault however when I attempted to buy one from our local Landy specialists both were adamant that the water pumps were definitely not going to be the issue and it’s going to be the head.


    As of time of writing the water pump and thermostat have not been changed.


    There was still a lot of water pressure in the system so we checked to see if there was exhaust gas entering the system. Using a Diesel ‘Sniffer’ on the header tank we saw gasses bubbling up through the coolant water but no change in the colouration of the liquid to indicate exhaust gas. (after shot below)
    IMG_6140.JPEG

    There was the sound of escaping gas from the radiator indicating a leak. Hoping that this was somehow bringing air into the system we replaced the radiator but the overheating issue remains. While we were in there the Viscous coupling fan was removed. (Aparrently these are useless and need to be replaced with an electric fan asap.)
    IMG_6163.JPEG IMG_6165.JPEG


    My guess at this point is that the cap on the header tank was replaced and this shot all of the water out at some point in the past. The engine overheated and the head gasket went causing gasses to pressurise the coolant system and popped the radiator.


    BUT I have no real idea how to prove this without taking the head off and getting a new gasket on there. This is quite a daunting first task as I’ve never done this before.


    If you have the time, what is the order of events to take next? Get that head off or try other options?
    IMG_6162.JPEG
     

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  5. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    Funny enough that's what I thought it might be but I've been shot down by three places that know the business better than myself. What were your symptoms?
     
  6. dieseldog69

    dieseldog69 Well-Known Member LZIR Despatch Agent

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    I'd replace it to be on the safe side, it's way cheaper in the long run and at least you will have a good known unit to start off from.
     
  7. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    I've gone onto Bearmach and ordered a new Thermostat and water pump! I reckon you are right - almost no harm in getting it done. Maybe it's even that and not the head gasket?
     
  8. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    03/01/2021 - Update

    So with tighter lockdown restrictions I'm taking the project away from the garage as I'll be putting other people at risk by travelling to the Garage. Thankfully I haven't had the head off yet so I was still able to drive it (in three stops!). 30 minute drive was about 2 hours in the end.
    IMG_6317.JPG Same Symptoms - temp levelling to normal - then spiking, eventually needing a top up (after cooling down)

    With my last visit for a while and the Advice of Neilly in another thread I used a SnapOn Diagnostic kit to find out what my EKA Code is. I hope to never need this information but I'm extremely glad to have it before I need it.
    I also got a download of some of the engine codes to see what's going on with the engine.

    IMG_6268.JPEG
    Air Flow Circuit Fault (unknown number - damn sunshine)
    Manifold Pressure Circuit Fault
    Inlet Air Temperature Circuit Fault
    A/C Clutch Drive Open Load Fault
    Turbo Over Boost Fault
    Road Speed Missing Fault

    Airflow, Mainifild Pressure and Turbo all sound pretty serious but I'll take advice to see if it's something immediate I need to resolve!

    While down there I've also noticed a LOT of water inside the carpets - which seems to be making a pretty big couple of holes in the bodywork
    IMG_6283.JPEG IMG_6277.JPEG IMG_6278.JPEG
    Not sure who ever gave this thing an MOT but it's my problem now so no point crying about it!

    I'm guessing it's and inerior carpet out and dry out job but for the time being I'm going to try to duct-tape up the obvious holes and try to dry it out when I get my hands on a heater or de-humidfier. I'm not going to worry about the big problems like holes until I solve the massive problems like coolant and stopping.

    IMG_6196.JPEG IMG_6323.JPEG IMG_6326.JPEG

    In the mean time I've bought a Thermostat and and a new water pump from Bearmach to see if it's a cheap fix before I sucumb to taking off the head. I also want to try to flush water through the heater matrix - apparently this can get blocked and cause a problem?

    Anyone with similar issues who has a suggestion is always wlecome in this thread! And if anyone has done a Head Gasket on a 10P TD5 where is best to buy the replacement parts? How deep do you go (just gasket or bolts or all gaskets and new manifold etc?)

    Deano
     
  9. DefenderPilot

    DefenderPilot Well-Known Member

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    My symptoms were:
    Topped up water every time I wanted to drive it. Would drive fine for a few miles then the temp gauge would start to waver and I'd smell coolant. Pull over and look under the bonnet to find the area around the header tank wet. Header tank empty. Several litres of coolant needed to top it up again. The symptoms remained the same despite changing the head gasket. The advice was always the same; "it definitely won't be the water pump, the head gasket's gone".
    Well, in my case it definitely was the water pump. I happened to have a spare water pump from a Disco 2 (oh yes, I'd forgotten that I also changed the engine in the Defender too. Made no difference because I swapped all the original ancillaries onto the Disco engine that I put in it). So it was no bother for me to try it and it turned out to be the solution.
     
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  10. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    There were other gaskets that seemed to sell separately to the pump itself. Did you buy any extras when you did the job?

    sounds like I might end up with a cheaper fix! Definitely worth doing this before taking the head off then. Thanks for taking the time by the way! Much appreciated
     
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  11. DefenderPilot

    DefenderPilot Well-Known Member

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    I didn't need to change the water pump gasket because I left it in the housing and just changed the whole thing.
     
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  12. rich28uk

    rich28uk Active Member

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    Keep the viscous fan or replace if it’s failed but they are what the engine was designed with and as long as they have the cowling in place offer more powerfull cooling than electric... wait till it’s roaring round and stand near it with cowling on... like a hurricane, also have a lot less to fail than electric fans.
     
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  13. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    Update - 22/01/2021


    It’s not the Head Gasket? (Or there’s a hole in my bucket…)

    Short Version:

    Power Steering Pump PAS no longer drives the water pump. Water pump seal failed in the past and rotted linkage. Got a few other jobs done while I was in there.


    Long Version:

    Overheating and water ****ing out of the engine bay seemed to be the system over pressurising. First up was a new water pump. To get to the old one you've got to remove the Turbo, Air con, centrifugal oil filter housing and a few other bits.
    IMG_6407.JPEG IMG_6407.JPEG IMG_6411.JPEG IMG_6414.JPEG
    It's a bit of a faff but honestly the Haynes manual did me pretty proud here and gave plenty enough information. If anyone needs how-to photos I've pretty much photo'd every stage so I wouldn't forget anything when I had to put it all back.

    Once the pump was out you could tell the seals had given out, rotted the U shape coupling driving the water pump from the Power Steering pump.
    IMG_6420.JPEG
    Above: there was a tiny hairline crack meaning this part in my hand was spinning freely on the shaft = no drive to water pump.
    Below: the new Power Steering Pump and new Water Pump will not be going rusty in the future as I've absolutely LAGGED them in waterproof grease.
    C7D0DB86-0A65-473D-B844-AF1C86176E70.jpg

    As a word of warning - I tried to get a second hand power steering pump to replace it with (I'm very poor) and a new wing mirror from facebook marketplace but both of them never turned up (£70 ish gone. Don't pay in advance my friends.)

    While I was in the engine bay I replaced the Thermostat. There were plenty of engine code faults too so I've done all of the likely culprits.
    New MAF sensor, new Injector Loom, replaced boost lines and boost regulator valve, Cleaned up the water temp sensor and MAP sensors. Cleaned all the oil off the Red plug to the ECU and let the ECU drain for a couple days to get rid of any extra oil.
    IMG_6477.JPEG IMG_6480.JPEG IMG_6552.JPEG

    The pipe from the turbo to the intercooler was getting rusty so that got a sand and a coat of paint too.
    IMG_6436.JPEG IMG_6442.JPEG IMG_6446.JPEG

    After that the system would hold water but getting the pipes to stop leaking took quite a while. I eventually gave up with some of the old pipes and bought the three pipes connecting to the Thermostat. These three tiny pipes were over £50! I maybe should have bought aftermarket blue silicone pipes from ebay - a whole set seems to be £130? What I bought did the job though and now the water is inside the the engine at pressure. I had to buy another expansion cap after the old (new) one pulled in half and I had to lever it out
    IMG_6592.JPEG

    The original part cap was twice the price but at £13 this wasn't too much hardship and it fits better that the old (new) one did. I hate to say it be the genuine parts do seem to be pretty good. Last but not least I fitted a new clip to get my filler to close. Which it does! but doesn't open. Turns out there is a rubber pad that fits on the hinge side which compresses -just- enough to spring open the flap, which I don't have.

    IMG_6425.JPEG IMG_6428.JPEG IMG_6429.JPEG
    But it moves! to the supermarket for the first reward!
    141582453_233357471735873_5395319158999814065_n.png
     

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  14. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    My God!
    How many Cornflake packet tops did you give for it?
    Chassis. Surface rust?
    LOL!!!!!
     
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  15. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    WEEEEELLLLLLLL....

    too many. Frankly

    But a faint heart never ****ed a pig as they used to say at work. It's mine now

    I gave the chasis a damn good jabbing with my trustiest screwdriver and couldn't get through the paint anywhere. I was planning to use a lift and look properly at home but that never got a chance to happen. It's with the god's now... (or as soon as lockdown ends)

    Next step is going to be pads and calipers on the front then getting a new windscreen and then ripping out the interior to find out where the goddamn water is coming from. While I'm at it I'll need to make a plan to see how MUCH welding I'm going to need.
     
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  16. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Joking apart mate, you've made a very good start and i hope your luck continues.
    but do have a damn good look at the chassis. It can look sort of OK for ages then suddenly, it's gone!:):):)
     
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  17. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Posts crossed!:rolleyes:
     
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  18. Deanod

    Deanod Member

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    Yeah that's what I've been told too! The first job was going to be sand and paint rusty bits if good. Part out if bad. I've kinda jumped the gun a bit but I can't find any Chassis awfulness yet. If you know someone who needs manual labour on saturdays in Cornwall let me know, I need £3000 for a galvanised Chassis!
     
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  19. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    While you are in there mate, if there isn't evidence of it, take the exhaust manifold off, cross fingers that all the nuts and studs are still there, check it ain't warped. :eek::eek:
    If it is, get it ground flat and cut with a saw through the webs. If it isn't still make the cuts.
    When they warp they whistle like a dodgy aux belt and a lot of the time when they go they take the studs with them or snap em off. you could also drill out the two bolt holes on one and five by an extra 2 mm , and the two on 2 and 4 by one mm, to give everything a tiny bit of wiggle room.
    Guess how i know? i only had to deal with 4 studs, and the warp was so bad it cost me twice at much at the engineers!:eek::eek:

    Have fun!:):):)
     
  20. Stanleysteamer

    Stanleysteamer Well-Known Member Full Member

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    If you are in for a galvanised chassis you really are in for the long haul!
    Don't know how good you are at ECUs etc. but they are a total pain.
    I eventually bought a Foxwell and was glad I did!
     
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