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A

Austin Shackles

Guest

I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the 300
TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I think of
it.

I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an apprentice
mechanic afore they get to design owt.


In particular:
1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator and the
PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front of the
block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole, which just
makes it difficult to refit, without locating it accurately. There's also a
bolt and nut beside it which is pretty awkward to get to with the engine in
the vehicle.
3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
>> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!
 
> I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the 300
> TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I think of
> it.
>
> I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an apprentice
> mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>
>
> In particular:
> 1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator and the
> PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
> 2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front of the
> block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole, which just
> makes it difficult to refit, without locating it accurately. There's also a
> bolt and nut beside it which is pretty awkward to get to with the engine in
> the vehicle.
> 3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
> flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
> pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.

Hear, hear!

To which you can add those horrible bolts with the 'tapered' heads that
really need a single hex socket to get hold of them.

 
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote in
news:eek:[email protected]:

>
> I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the
> 300 TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I
> think of it.
>
> I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an
> apprentice mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>
>
> In particular:
> 1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator and
> the PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
> 2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front
> of the block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole,
> which just makes it difficult to refit, without locating it
> accurately. There's also a bolt and nut beside it which is pretty
> awkward to get to with the engine in the vehicle.
> 3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
> flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
> pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.
>


Don't you love britisch engineering??????
Or, did you expect anything else.. :)

KR,
Martin.
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the
> 300 TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I
> think of it.
>
> I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an
> apprentice mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>
>
> In particular:
> 1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator
> and the PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
> 2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front
> of the block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole,
> which just makes it difficult to refit, without locating it
> accurately. There's also a bolt and nut beside it which is pretty
> awkward to get to with the engine in the vehicle.
> 3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
> flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
> pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.

Aye, took me an hour to tighten the fanbelt(s) on the old RRC i had!

You need arms like inspector gadget! Mind you, have a look under the bonnet of a WRX, boxer engine & a
pain in the arse to even check the loil level!

Nige

--
Subaru WRX (The Bitch)

Series 3 Landrover 88" (Albert)

"Christ's fat cock"


 
>>I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the
>>300 TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I
>>think of it.
>>
>>I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an
>>apprentice mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>>
>>
>>In particular:
>>1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator and
>>the PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
>>2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front
>>of the block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole,
>>which just makes it difficult to refit, without locating it
>>accurately. There's also a bolt and nut beside it which is pretty
>>awkward to get to with the engine in the vehicle.
>>3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
>>flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
>>pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.
>>
>
> Don't you love britisch engineering??????
> Or, did you expect anything else.. :)
>
> KR,
> Martin.

That's probably unfair. I don't necessarily think that it's a
nationality thing.

Strangely, I had one of those rare illuminating moments when you realise
that someone has designed in a feature to make dismantling easier on a
Land Rover product (admittedly of some vintage).

I very much go along with Austin's view that today's designers just do
not have the practical experience to realise what an abortion they are
creating. Many wouldn't know one end of a spanner from the other let
alone be able to visualise how to go about dismantling their creations.

The water pump bolt behind the pulley is an excellent example. By the
the time that you've worked out that the pulley has to come off, the
serpentine belt has already been removed so you're looking for a way to
hold the pulley while you loosen the bolts. So put the belt back only to
realise this is a smooth surface pulley and the belt cannot support
sufficient torque to allow you to undo the pulley bolts......
(A bit of leather between the belt and the pulley did the trick in the
end.)

My day job - you've guessed!

 
On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 20:36:24 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the 300
>TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I think of
>it.
>
>I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an apprentice
>mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>

Modern cars are not designed for maintenance, only for quick assembly.
If you're working on the production line everything makes perfect
sense. it's only when people like you have the temerity to want to
service it, or change one component that a problem arises.

Alex
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the
> 300 TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I
> think of it.
>
> I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an
> apprentice mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>
>
> In particular:
> 1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator
> and the PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
> 2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front
> of the block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole,
> which just makes it difficult to refit, without locating it
> accurately. There's also a bolt and nut beside it which is pretty
> awkward to get to with the engine in the vehicle.
> 3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
> flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
> pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.

When I was a lad (20 years ago!) I worked at a main dealer for BL, we serviced all the BL cars. They just
brought out the Montego Efi. One needed a new alternator, you had to take the erngine out to change the
alternator ffs! When i say out, it needed to be moved by about 6 inches upwards. Classi;c case of bad
design!

Nige



--
Subaru WRX (The Bitch)

Series 3 Landrover 88" (Albert)

"Christ's fat cock"


 
On or around Sat, 12 Mar 2005 22:11:11 +0000, Dougal
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>The water pump bolt behind the pulley is an excellent example. By the
>the time that you've worked out that the pulley has to come off, the
>serpentine belt has already been removed so you're looking for a way to
>hold the pulley while you loosen the bolts. So put the belt back only to
>realise this is a smooth surface pulley and the belt cannot support
>sufficient torque to allow you to undo the pulley bolts......

spanner on bolt head, drift against spanner, smart tap with a medium-sized
smiter worked here. 'course, a rattle gun would do it except that to use
one of them on it you'd have to remove the radiator. Mad.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'
 

"Nige" wrote ...
> Austin Shackles wrote:
>> I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the
>> 300 TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I
>> think of it. ((snip))
>>
..
>
> When I was a lad (20 years ago!) I worked at a main dealer for BL, we
> serviced all the BL cars. They just brought out the Montego Efi. One
> needed a new alternator, you had to take the erngine out to change the
> alternator ffs! When i say out, it needed to be moved by about 6 inches
> upwards. Classi;c case of bad design!

It's not just a British engineering thing, I think there is at least on
Ferrari that needs the engine out just for a service, like £K's before they
start!

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London


 
I once went to look at a Nissan 300zx twin turbo, this was when they were
recently out, it was about a year old at the time.

I checked the service costs and was informed it was a 12 hour job to change
the spark plugs, apparently most of the top end of the engine had to be
stripped down to gain access.
I decided on something else..:)

I also had a 2.5 V6 Vectra on which the oil cooler leaked, showed all the
signs of a blown head but is a well known problem on these
engines...Vauxhall response to the failure of this £80 part "We usually
write the car off when that goes - it's a £3000 repair"....the entire front
end of the car has to be disassembled, bumper, rad, air con system,
headlights, wing linings, entire top of engine stripped all to replace a
known badly desinged oil cooler sited in the Vee of the engine.

I've now got a New Mercedes (leased), I never thought I'd buy a new
vehicle...but the peace of mind a warranty gives you is worth every penny of
depreciation...:)

Alan M



> It's not just a British engineering thing, I think there is at least on
> Ferrari that needs the engine out just for a service, like £K's before
> they start!


 
In message <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> writes
>
>I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the 300
>TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I think of
>it.
>
>I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an apprentice
>mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>
>
>In particular:
>1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator and the
>PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
>2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front of the
>block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole, which just
>makes it difficult to refit, without locating it accurately. There's also a
>bolt and nut beside it which is pretty awkward to get to with the engine in
>the vehicle.
>3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
>flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
>pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.
>

ON the plus side Austin once you have done a couple it will only take
you 45 mins to change that gasket. Which is much better than having to
take the timing case off like you do on the 200's.

My only complaint about that set up is that that all the m8 bolts which
you use a 10mm socket on are very soft and easy to damage. Which makes
the pulley removal slightly more interesting if someone has rounded a
head.

As for finding the belt wont hold the pulley still when you try to undo
it, I use a pair of mole grips to hold the sides of the pulley. They in
turn will jam against the ali bracket and lock it up. All with no damage
to the pulley.

All good fun

--
Marc Draper FOR SALE:

DISCO II (51) GS7 ACE, CLIMATE, SIDE STEPS, BGF AT'S, 67,000 MILES
DISCOVERY 300 TDI S (R) EPSOM GREEN, AC, 80,000 MILES
DISCOVERY VAN 300 TDI (M) 100,000 UNTIDY MILES !!
DISCOVERY 300 TDI (P) XS7 75,000 MILES
 
On or around Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:04:51 +0000, Marc Draper
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>ON the plus side Austin once you have done a couple it will only take
>you 45 mins to change that gasket. Which is much better than having to
>take the timing case off like you do on the 200's.

Oh, I grant you it's better than on the 200 TDi, and in fact the whole thing
is better. It's just that with almost no extra effort or cost it could have
been better still.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Pereant qui ante nos nostra dixerunt"
(confound the men who have made our remarks before us.)
Aelius Donatus (4th Cent.) [St. Jerome, Commentary on Ecclesiastes]
 
On or around Sun, 13 Mar 2005 14:59:17 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On or around Sun, 13 Mar 2005 10:04:51 +0000, Marc Draper
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>ON the plus side Austin once you have done a couple it will only take
>>you 45 mins to change that gasket. Which is much better than having to
>>take the timing case off like you do on the 200's.
>
>Oh, I grant you it's better than on the 200 TDi, and in fact the whole thing
>is better. It's just that with almost no extra effort or cost it could have
>been better still.

The only thing I have against the serpentine belt in fact is that a single
failure loses you all the systems at once. However, things with separate
belts for everything are quite rare.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'
 
> The only thing I have against the serpentine belt in fact is that a single
> failure loses you all the systems at once.

You don't carry a spare? Shame on you!!

 

"Alan Mudd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I once went to look at a Nissan 300zx twin turbo, this was when they were
>recently out, it was about a year old at the time.
>
> I checked the service costs and was informed it was a 12 hour job to
> change the spark plugs, apparently most of the top end of the engine had
> to be stripped down to gain access.
> I decided on something else..:)
>
> I also had a 2.5 V6 Vectra on which the oil cooler leaked, showed all the
> signs of a blown head but is a well known problem on these
> engines...Vauxhall response to the failure of this £80 part "We usually
> write the car off when that goes - it's a £3000 repair"....the entire
> front end of the car has to be disassembled, bumper, rad, air con system,
> headlights, wing linings, entire top of engine stripped all to replace a
> known badly desinged oil cooler sited in the Vee of the engine.
>
> I've now got a New Mercedes (leased), I never thought I'd buy a new
> vehicle...but the peace of mind a warranty gives you is worth every penny
> of depreciation...:)
>

Put another way, used cars are overpriced?

Huw


 
In message <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> writes

>The only thing I have against the serpentine belt in fact is that a single
>failure loses you all the systems at once. However, things with separate
>belts for everything are quite rare.

Disco II, water pump, Alternator, PAS pump, ACE pump, Aircon. All of one
belt !

Look on the bright side at least you will know it has fallen off !

Down side is that even if you have a spare belt, if the old one as gone
completely you will take hours to work out how it should fit .
--
Marc Draper
 
On or around Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:41:56 +0000, Dougal
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>> The only thing I have against the serpentine belt in fact is that a single
>> failure loses you all the systems at once.
>
>You don't carry a spare? Shame on you!!

heh. Wouldn't have helped, with the last time: water pump failure making it
throw the belt, due tot he pulley being misaligned.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Something there is that doesn't love a wall."
Robert Frost (1874-1963)
 
In message <[email protected]>
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the 300
> TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I think of
> it.
>
> I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an apprentice
> mechanic afore they get to design owt.
>
>

I couldn't agree more. My last "proper" job was at a well known
"luxury" car maker. I had to attend a few Packaging Reviews
(where bits are discussed to see if they fit). Never was
maintainability taken into account in the design process -
only production. Since the new car was entering a market
where Cost Of Ownership was likely to become a pruchasing
factor I was amazed that no one cared, and indeed look quite
puzzled when I raised the issue, that being able to change
a water pump etc *should* matter. All that mattered was
costs to them, not the customer.
Ex Rover "designers" there where completely baffled when I
pointed out that there is a notable lack of fully kitted
out workshops in most of the world, including the developed
world.
In their defence, if that's the word, it should be noted
that most of them had not long since completed degrees at
universities where all that mattered is flashiness using
the latest technology. They really did think that having
red calipers or not was a serious design issue!
It seems their degrees never mentioned any other uses
that vehicles may designed for, and certainly the life
of a Defender was a complete unknown to them.

> In particular:
> 1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator and the
> PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
> 2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front of the
> block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole, which just
> makes it difficult to refit, without locating it accurately. There's also a
> bolt and nut beside it which is pretty awkward to get to with the engine in
> the vehicle.
> 3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
> flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
> pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.
>

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 

"beamendsltd" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:1fe6874b4d%[email protected]...
> Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote:
>> I'd like to meet the bloke who's responsible for the front end of the 300
>> TDi, so I can shake him heartily by the balls and tell him what I think
>> of
>> it.
>> I reckon all designers should be forced to do 12 months as an apprentice
>> mechanic afore they get to design owt.

Indeed, I couldn't agree more.

> Never was
> maintainability taken into account in the design process -
> only production. Since the new car was entering a market
> where Cost Of Ownership was likely to become a pruchasing
> factor I was amazed that no one cared, and indeed look quite
> puzzled when I raised the issue, that being able to change
> a water pump etc *should* matter. All that mattered was
> costs to them, not the customer.
> Ex Rover "designers" there where completely baffled when I
> pointed out that there is a notable lack of fully kitted
> out workshops in most of the world, including the developed
> world.
> In their defence, if that's the word, it should be noted
> that most of them had not long since completed degrees at
> universities where all that mattered is flashiness using
> the latest technology. They really did think that having
> red calipers or not was a serious design issue!
> It seems their degrees never mentioned any other uses
> that vehicles may designed for, and certainly the life
> of a Defender was a complete unknown to them.

HAH! Try talking to young students training to become designers in the
aviation world. We had a group of them visit Lossiemouth some years ago and
I showed them some of the more interesting engineering design cock-ups
Propulsion-wise on the Tornado in a vain attempt to try and get them to
think as engineers and of the problems of access. They were visually stunned
at some of the things they were shown and all agreed that they personally
would cringe at the thought of having to replace the bit I was referring to
at each stage.

>> In particular:
>> 1) the housing the water pump sits on also supports the alternator and
>> the
>> PAS pump, which isn't really necessary.
>> 2) the same housing has a bolt at the bottom holding it to the front of
>> the
>> block which is an 8mm bolt fitting through about a 10mm hole, which just
>> makes it difficult to refit, without locating it accurately. There's
>> also a
>> bolt and nut beside it which is pretty awkward to get to with the engine
>> in
>> the vehicle.
>> 3) the bolts which go through the water pump and the housing and the
>> flippin' P gasket have their heads just far enough behind the PAS pump
>> pulley that they can't be undone without removing the latter.

Personally, I'd like to give a good hard kick-in-the-slats to the Honda
Accord (and no doubt others) designers that came up with the ridiculous
scenario whereby you have to completely remove the front hub (invariably
destroying perfectly serviceable, expensive bearings in the process) to
change the front discs!!!!! Are they blind to the fact that most cars have
the discs on a bell-mount and they fit on over the top of the hub, obviating
the requirement to split ball joints, disconnect and press out halfshafts
etc etc just to change a pair of flaming discs??
AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

A first prize of absolutely nothing goes to whoever works out what car I
replaced front discs on recently......
Badger.



 
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