Defender replacement. Got this from wikipedia. Any further developments??

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On 2006-03-11, Alex <[email protected]> wrote:

> £30K for a Pinzgauer? Seems cheap, considering the top-spec Defender
> comes in at £28K, you get a lot more off-road ability for your
> money....

You might be right, I am pulling that figure out of my memory, which
seems to be largely located at the wrong end of my body.

I suppose for me the price isn't relevant, if it's more than £500 I
can't afford it right now :-(

Some months ago when I tried to call the company to find out how much,
they refused to tell me as I wasn't an army, a navy or a rescue
organisation, so I can't remember where I got the £30K figure from,
somewhere dark and smelly I suspect.

A second-hand truck is almost identical to the new ones, different
engine and brakes for sure, ISTR that a cheap one in not-very-good
condition would set you back £10,000, still £2,000 more than I paid
for my good condition Defender 110.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On 2006-03-11, Ian Rawlings <[email protected]> wrote:

> You might be right, I am pulling that figure out of my memory, which
> seems to be largely located at the wrong end of my body.

New pinz is more like £70K starting price it seems, sounds more
realistic. There are first-gen ones going for £7.5K now, prices seem
to have dropped.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!
 
On or around Sat, 11 Mar 2006 09:11:09 +0000, Alex
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 08:56:19 +0000, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On or around Fri, 10 Mar 2006 22:36:05 GMT, "Doorbell"
>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>Replacing the Defender with a new model has been in the planning stages for
>>>many years. The current design is over 20 years old in its current form and,
>>>in many ways, only slightly updated from the Land Rovers of the 1950s.
>>
>>that could use editing - it's rather unfair. The only thing that really
>>lets the defender down is seats - fit decent seats and it's very good for a
>>vehicle of its type. Compare for example with a typical minibus...
>>
>
>Buy a Santana PS-10 then. It's just like a defender only with several
>improvements, but still cheaper.

it has a better body but is still on leaf springs, albeit superior ones to
the series type.

The coil-spring suspension is actually considerably better than any
leafspring one including those on most of the japanese opposition...
Likesay, the only beef I had with standard 110 was the seats, which lack
support. Not sure if the Santana seats are better, haven't tried one - but
I would buy one if I were in the market for a new LWB.

fitting decent seats to the 110 made it fine for 200 mile stretches...

I have done about 600 miles in one day int he disco, which was rather
tiring... but I reckon 600 miles in a day would be tiring in any motor.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero" (sieze today, and put
as little trust as you can in tomorrow) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Odes, I.xi.8
 
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 20:55:04 +0000, Ian Rawlings
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 2006-03-11, Alex <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> £30K for a Pinzgauer? Seems cheap, considering the top-spec Defender
>> comes in at £28K, you get a lot more off-road ability for your
>> money....
>
>You might be right, I am pulling that figure out of my memory, which
>seems to be largely located at the wrong end of my body.
>
>I suppose for me the price isn't relevant, if it's more than £500 I
>can't afford it right now :-(
>

I know how you feel. A brand new dizzy for my 2.25 SWB has broken the
bank at £32.

Alex
 
Alex <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny about:
> Nothing wrong with leaf springs. Or the LT85 for that matter.
> (Although it's not the same as the LR version - it's uprated and it
> has selectable 2x4/4x4 for a start, like the old series, no centre
> diff to pack up) The driving positon is not the same, the centre seat
> has been lost and the seat/wheel is further inboard - no more banging
> elbows on the windows in winter. Also has a rigid body mounted
> flexibly to the chassis, and a one-piece fibreglass roof (no leaks).
> Lots of other differences, including 4-pinion diffs.
>
> OTR price: £20,467
>
> Which is £2500 cheaper than the entry-level Defender 110SW (£22,995)
>
> Or you can have the hi-spec version which comes with Electric windows
> and central locking for a mere £600 more, which brings you in line
> with the 110SW County which costs £24,495 - saving you £3500.
>
> If only Santana did a SWB version, i'd be buying one.
>
> Alex

They had a stand, or at least a UK dealer for them had a stand at Stonleigh
last September. I was very impressed. I liked the larger back door as well.
Much more useful than the standard Landy one. I'd certainly be giving them
some serious thought if they are still pumping them out when the Laguna
comes of age.

Lee D
--
www.lrproject.com



 
In message <[email protected]>
Alex <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> >> >
> >> >>Replacing the Defender with a new model has been in the planning stages for
> >> >>many years. The current design is over 20 years old in its current form and,
> >> >>in many ways, only slightly updated from the Land Rovers of the 1950s.
> >> >
> >> >that could use editing - it's rather unfair. The only thing that really
> >> >lets the defender down is seats - fit decent seats and it's very good for a
> >> >vehicle of its type. Compare for example with a typical minibus...
> >> >
> >>
> >> Buy a Santana PS-10 then. It's just like a defender only with several
> >> improvements, but still cheaper.
> >>
> >
> >Apart from the leaf springs, LT85 gearbox - and that driving position
> >looks remarkably farmiliar...... ;-)
> >
> >http://www.ticonsole.nl/santana/ps-10.htm
> >
>
> Nothing wrong with leaf springs. Or the LT85 for that matter.
> (Although it's not the same as the LR version - it's uprated and it
> has selectable 2x4/4x4 for a start, like the old series, no centre
> diff to pack up)

That's the transfer box that's different, not the main box. The
transfer box is the very early LT230 as fitted to early Defenders
with selectable 4 wheel drive. All the parts have LR part numbers.

> The driving positon is not the same, the centre seat
> has been lost and the seat/wheel is further inboard - no more banging
> elbows on the windows in winter.

Defender has lost the middle seat too. The photo's don't seem show
any more elbow room (not that I have a problem with that).

> Also has a rigid body mounted
> flexibly to the chassis, and a one-piece fibreglass roof (no leaks).
> Lots of other differences, including 4-pinion diffs.

4 pin diffs have been standard on Defender for some time now.

Fibreglass, not leak! It's ok when new, but a couple of years in
all weathers and some knocks... I'm not convinced.

>
> OTR price: £20,467
>
> Which is £2500 cheaper than the entry-level Defender 110SW (£22,995)
>
> Or you can have the hi-spec version which comes with Electric windows
> and central locking for a mere £600 more, which brings you in line
> with the 110SW County which costs £24,495 - saving you £3500.

I'm more than happy to pay the extra for the Defender, partly for
the coil springs and LT77, but also for spares - any vehicle I own
gets used for what it was designed for and spares availability matters!

>
> If only Santana did a SWB version, i'd be buying one.
>
> Alex
>
>

Richard

>
>

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
> > Also has a rigid body mounted
> > flexibly to the chassis, and a one-piece fibreglass roof (no leaks).
> > Lots of other differences, including 4-pinion diffs.
>
> 4 pin diffs have been standard on Defender for some time now.

The salisbury diff is a four pin isn't it? which means the series three has
a four-pin aswell, in the rear anyway.

>
> Fibreglass, not leak! It's ok when new, but a couple of years in
> all weathers and some knocks... I'm not convinced.

Yeah, the fibreglass roof on my old landcruiser leaked like a sieve. if you
parked it on the wrong angle during rain, you would end up with a small lake
in the back.

Sam.


 
Dunno I reckon Santana are the true inheritors of the series tradition, coil
springs marked the beginning of a long decline :)


--
þT

L'autisme c'est moi

"Space folds, and folded space bends, and bent folded space contracts and
expands unevenly in every way unconcievable except to someone who does not
believe in the laws of mathematics"

"Doorbell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:p[email protected]...
> Replacement
> Replacing the Defender with a new model has been in the planning stages
for
> many years. The current design is over 20 years old in its current form
and,
> in many ways, only slightly updated from the Land Rovers of the 1950s. As
> modern private and commercial vehicles offer increasing levels of
> performance, comfort and refinement, the Defender is again in competition
> with Japanese products. These offer less off-road ability but are much
more
> comfortable. The Defender's excellent off-road performance is rarely used
to
> its limits by commercial users, and build-quality issues have led to many
> switching to foreign competition.
>
> Replacement was due for 2007, but recently new methods of building the
> Defender have made the model profitable again (since the 1990s, the
> hand-built vehicle had been made at a loss), and so its replacement has
been
> less of a priority. For the 2007 model year (2006 in calender years), the
> Defender will receive a new 4-cylinder diesel engine- probably a 2.7-litre
> version of the DuraTorq units used in the Ford Transit. Total replacement
> will be needed by 2012, when new regulations regarding crash safety for
> pedestrians will render the current design obsolete. Land Rover is keen to
> sell the Defender in the huge USA 4x4 market. The Defender does not reach
> the safety requirement for the USA, and only small batches of specially
> modified (and very expensive) vehicles have been sold there in the past. A
> replacement vehicle will almost certainly be designed to be legal in
> America.
>
> The replacement of the Defender is a controversial issue, especially
amongst
> the many enthusiasts for the vehicles. Some are worried that the
replacement
> will be a Defender only in name, sacrificing the off-road ability required
> by a few for the on-road comfort and refinement liked by many. Others
worry
> that, given Land Rover's recent 'high tech' models such as the Range Rover
> and Discovery 3, the next Defender will use electronic rather than
> mechanical off-road systems, which will remove its characteristic
simplicity
> and toughness.
>
> Land Rover have not released any information about the new Defender
project,
> so these concerns are pure speculation. Numerous 'artists impressions' in
> the motoring press have been discredited as non-official.
>
> Retrieved from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_Rover_Defender
>
> --
> 1982 Series III 109
>
>


 
>Nothing wrong with leaf springs. Or the LT85 for that matter.
>(Although it's not the same as the LR version - it's uprated and it
>has selectable 2x4/4x4 for a start, like the old series, no centre
>diff to pack up)

Part time 4x4 is a backwards step the, Defender transmission is superb
in it's design and operation. It is much more flexible and simpler than
many of the other systems available.

Unless neglected the centre diff will last forever.



--
Marc Draper
 
On or around Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:45:09 +0000, Marc Draper
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>>Nothing wrong with leaf springs. Or the LT85 for that matter.
>>(Although it's not the same as the LR version - it's uprated and it
>>has selectable 2x4/4x4 for a start, like the old series, no centre
>>diff to pack up)
>
>Part time 4x4 is a backwards step the, Defender transmission is superb
>in it's design and operation. It is much more flexible and simpler than
>many of the other systems available.

inclined to agree - especially in heavy towing or suchlike, having all 4
wheels driving makes for less load on half-shafts and so forth.

>Unless neglected the centre diff will last forever.

I've certainly never had any trouble with 'em.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
>inclined to agree - especially in heavy towing or suchlike, having all 4
>wheels driving makes for less load on half-shafts and so forth.


Especially slow speed manoeuvring in low box. No wind up at all with
permanent 4WD.

Just come back from doing an event in France (glorified green laning)
lots of high ratio 4WD work with lots of road work in between. With the
part time series system you would be messing around with stopping then
selecting low then high again just to take it out of 4WD.
--
Marc Draper
 
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 10:45:09 +0000, Marc Draper
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>Nothing wrong with leaf springs. Or the LT85 for that matter.
>>(Although it's not the same as the LR version - it's uprated and it
>>has selectable 2x4/4x4 for a start, like the old series, no centre
>>diff to pack up)
>
>Part time 4x4 is a backwards step the, Defender transmission is superb
>in it's design and operation. It is much more flexible and simpler than
>many of the other systems available.
>

I beg to differ. A centre differential is not simpler than a
selectable 2x4 with a dog clutch.

>Unless neglected the centre diff will last forever.

In "normal" use, yes, but with serious off-road work, it's far easier
in the field to change a snapped half-shaft than it is to replace the
centre diff.

Alex
 
On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:15:19 +0000, Marc Draper
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>inclined to agree - especially in heavy towing or suchlike, having all 4
>>wheels driving makes for less load on half-shafts and so forth.
>
>
>Especially slow speed manoeuvring in low box. No wind up at all with
>permanent 4WD.
>
>Just come back from doing an event in France (glorified green laning)
>lots of high ratio 4WD work with lots of road work in between. With the
>part time series system you would be messing around with stopping then
>selecting low then high again just to take it out of 4WD.

If you're that fussed with it, then a simple modification to the
series transfer box can provide you with a lever to select 2x4 or 4x4
on the move. And you can even use 2x4 in low range, should you wish.
Landrover only went with the yellow button system to retain
contininuty with the old freewheel system, and to prevent people
driving in 2wd in low range.

Or alternativly, you can fit self-locking freewheeling hubs to the
front, which don't give you transmission wind-up in 4wd. If you can
find a pair, that is......

Alex
 
In message <[email protected]>
Alex <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 14:15:19 +0000, Marc Draper
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >>inclined to agree - especially in heavy towing or suchlike, having all 4
> >>wheels driving makes for less load on half-shafts and so forth.
> >
> >
> >Especially slow speed manoeuvring in low box. No wind up at all with
> >permanent 4WD.
> >
> >Just come back from doing an event in France (glorified green laning)
> >lots of high ratio 4WD work with lots of road work in between. With the
> >part time series system you would be messing around with stopping then
> >selecting low then high again just to take it out of 4WD.
>
> If you're that fussed with it, then a simple modification to the
> series transfer box can provide you with a lever to select 2x4 or 4x4
> on the move. And you can even use 2x4 in low range, should you wish.
> Landrover only went with the yellow button system to retain
> contininuty with the old freewheel system, and to prevent people
> driving in 2wd in low range.

I thought the yellow knob locks the 4wd drive in when changing into
high - the object being to give the user a quick change when leaving
off road from "off-road mode" to "on road mode" in normal use, but
leaving the high 4wd drive option if required by using the yellow knob
- that's certainly how I use it (bit of practice wih double
de-clutching required, but then that was standard at the time for
most grearboxes). If it wasn't deliberate, it was a very fortunate
accident.

>
> Or alternativly, you can fit self-locking freewheeling hubs to the
> front, which don't give you transmission wind-up in 4wd. If you can
> find a pair, that is......

Now I wonder why they diasappeared? ;-)

>
> Alex

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
>
>If you're that fussed with it, then a simple modification to the
>series transfer box can provide you with a lever to select 2x4 or 4x4
>on the move. And you can even use 2x4 in low range, should you wish.
>Landrover only went with the yellow button system to retain
>contininuty with the old freewheel system, and to prevent people
>driving in 2wd in low range.
>
>Or alternativly, you can fit self-locking freewheeling hubs to the
>front, which don't give you transmission wind-up in 4wd. If you can
>find a pair, that is......
>
>Alex



Yes I remember that conversion from the days when I had a Series III

I am not fussed about it at all as I have no intention of using a
vehicle that has part time 4WD.


--
Marc Draper
 
>>Part time 4x4 is a backwards step the, Defender transmission is superb
>>in it's design and operation. It is much more flexible and simpler than
>>many of the other systems available.
>>
>
>I beg to differ. A centre differential is not simpler than a
>selectable 2x4 with a dog clutch.



I was comparing the LT230 to other part time systems that are available
in today's vehicles, many of which have an electronic component or two.



>In "normal" use, yes, but with serious off-road work, it's far easier
>in the field to change a snapped half-shaft than it is to replace the
>centre diff.

If that was the case then every challenge vehicle ever built would be
running series transmission !!

If the centre diff is locked then it will not break before a halfshaft.
A centre diff will only generally break if lots of power is put through
it in an open state with one axle spinning.

A centre diff when locked is effectively one solid lump of metal and
therefore has great strength.


--
Marc Draper
 
On or around Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:18:48 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I thought the yellow knob locks the 4wd drive in when changing into
>high - the object being to give the user a quick change when leaving
>off road from "off-road mode" to "on road mode" in normal use, but
>leaving the high 4wd drive option if required by using the yellow knob
>- that's certainly how I use it (bit of practice wih double
>de-clutching required, but then that was standard at the time for
>most grearboxes). If it wasn't deliberate, it was a very fortunate
>accident.

up to a point, Lord Copper.

yellow knob, when depressed, engages the front end drive, by means of a
simple dog clutch IIRC, so doing it with wheels spinning at the back is a
bad move. All this in high range only.

To get the thing out of 4H, you have to go into 4L, which releases it. I
daresay that you can press the yellow knob down in T-box N and then engage
H, but there's no special merit in that unless you're changing up from L and
want to retain 4WD. If you start of in 2H, then I just press the yellow
knob. declutch if you want but if the 4 wheels are turning more or less
equally it's not essential.

Have to say I prefer the fulltime 4WD of the later ones. I also like the
viscous diff in the Borg-Warner T-box - can't forget to engage it and it
doesn't go in with a bang like the difflock. Nor does it cause wind up in
normal conditions, although I imagine it does very slightly increase tyre
wear.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Remember that to change your mind and follow him who sets you right
is to be none the less free than you were before."
Marcus Aurelius Antoninus (121-180), from Meditations, VIII.16
 
>Have to say I prefer the fulltime 4WD of the later ones. I also like the
>viscous diff in the Borg-Warner T-box - can't forget to engage it and it
>doesn't go in with a bang like the difflock. Nor does it cause wind up in
>normal conditions, although I imagine it does very slightly increase tyre
>wear.


Ahh Borg-warner now that is something that is almost guaranteed to go
wrong :)

Have done a few of the viscous couplings, expensive and unnecessary
repair.

Nice idea though.
--
Marc Draper
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> On or around Mon, 13 Mar 2006 17:18:48 +0000 (UTC), beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I thought the yellow knob locks the 4wd drive in when changing into
>>high - the object being to give the user a quick change when leaving
>>off road from "off-road mode" to "on road mode" in normal use, but
>>leaving the high 4wd drive option if required by using the yellow knob
>>- that's certainly how I use it (bit of practice wih double
>>de-clutching required, but then that was standard at the time for
>>most grearboxes). If it wasn't deliberate, it was a very fortunate
>>accident.
>
> up to a point, Lord Copper.
>
> yellow knob, when depressed, engages the front end drive, by means of a
> simple dog clutch IIRC, so doing it with wheels spinning at the back is a
> bad move. All this in high range only.
>
> To get the thing out of 4H, you have to go into 4L, which releases it. I
> daresay that you can press the yellow knob down in T-box N and then engage
> H, but there's no special merit in that unless you're changing up from L
> and
> want to retain 4WD. If you start of in 2H, then I just press the yellow
> knob. declutch if you want but if the 4 wheels are turning more or less
> equally it's not essential.
>
(snip)
Everyone seems to have missed the main advantage of the yellow knob system.
The alternative, used on the contemporary Jeep for example, was a simple
lever - which you had to pull until the slipping wheels allowed the dogs to
line up and engage, which could be quite a while if you are engaging four
wheel drive as a precaution before getting into the bad stuff. The yellow
knob releases a spring to push the dog in, so you can put your hand back on
the steering wheel (or prepare to change gears for example) immediately.
JD

 
Marc Draper wrote:

>>>Part time 4x4 is a backwards step the, Defender transmission is superb
>>>in it's design and operation. It is much more flexible and simpler than
>>>many of the other systems available.
>>>
>>
>>I beg to differ. A centre differential is not simpler than a
>>selectable 2x4 with a dog clutch.
>
>
>
> I was comparing the LT230 to other part time systems that are available
> in today's vehicles, many of which have an electronic component or two.
>
>
>
>>In "normal" use, yes, but with serious off-road work, it's far easier
>>in the field to change a snapped half-shaft than it is to replace the
>>centre diff.
>
> If that was the case then every challenge vehicle ever built would be
> running series transmission !!
>
> If the centre diff is locked then it will not break before a halfshaft.
> A centre diff will only generally break if lots of power is put through
> it in an open state with one axle spinning.
>
> A centre diff when locked is effectively one solid lump of metal and
> therefore has great strength.
>
>
Centre diffs tend to wear badly if subjected to repeated impact loads, such
as happen when driving on corrugated roads. In some parts of the world
Landrovers spend most of their life driving long distances at hhigh speed
on these, and it is good practice to lock the centre diff to avoid this
wear. But I think overall I still prefer this to optional four wheel drive.
JD
 
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