Cooling system probs - 90 2.5TD

I could do with some urgent assistance to diagnose the cooling fault which
has just developed on my 90 2.5TD, since the 406 is off at the menders again
for a week, so the LR is the only transport I have for the moment and it's
just let me down.

The vehicle is on its original engine (156000 miles) with, (so far as I can
tell since I've only had it about a year) no major services or repairs. It
uses almost no oil, which given what I have heard about this engine at this
milage I find pretty surprising.

Normally it's used for tootling round the Peak District - rarely more than 15
miles from home - but last weekend (New Year's day) I did a run from near
Buxton down to Ross on Wye and back to collect a dumper. It behaved pretty
well, but seemed to get quite hot when towing the loaded trailer (upper end
of the white section on the dial - never into the red while the engine was
running although it would sneak up when the engine was turned off).

Tonight, I have just set out on a short journey and after about three miles,
the heater went cold (it's never been very hot, but it actually went from
warm to cold this time) and the temperature gauge rushed up to the red
region. I stopped and took a look under the bonnet and while the cooling
system cap blew steam at me when I (carefully, and with gloves on!) loosened
it, the fan drive was loose (ie.e the viscous coupling was not hot) and the
engine block was still cold enough to be able to touch with a hand.

I've let the thing cool for twenty minutes (easily long enough - it's well
below zero on Tideswell Moor tonight! ) and then driven it home. On the way
home, the needle went up to the red, then came down and then went back up
again.

My inclination is to think that the thermostat is buggered, and I'll go and
take it off in a minute and see what happens without it, but if anyone can
confirm this, or give me any other ideas (or, more significantly, tell me if
they think this is a pre-cursor to something more serious, such as water pump
failure), I'd be grateful.

TIA

Nick.

> Tonight, I have just set out on a short journey and after about three
> miles, the heater went cold (it's never been very hot, but it actually
> went from warm to cold this time) and the temperature gauge rushed up to
> the red region. I stopped and took a look under the bonnet and while the
> cooling system cap blew steam at me when I (carefully, and with gloves
> on!) loosened it, the fan drive was loose (ie.e the viscous coupling was
> not hot) and the engine block was still cold enough to be able to touch
> with a hand.
>
> I've let the thing cool for twenty minutes (easily long enough - it's well
> below zero on Tideswell Moor tonight! ) and then driven it home. On the
> way home, the needle went up to the red, then came down and then went back
> up again.

When was the last time you replaced the coolant? My guess is that it was
filled with slush and chunks of ice due to the coolant losing its
anti-freeze properties.

If you're not sure, take a little coolant out and put it in a non-food
container. Place the container in the deep freeze overnight. If it freezes
or slushes then you need to drain and replace the coolant.

--
S3 SWB Petrol Hard-top

I had the exact same symptom on a Disco 300TDi, it ended up being a head
gasket failure which was preceded by pressure build up and it blew the water
pump gasket, I would get it checked ASAP.

A.


"Nick Williams" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I could do with some urgent assistance to diagnose the cooling fault which
> has just developed on my 90 2.5TD, since the 406 is off at the menders
> again
> for a week, so the LR is the only transport I have for the moment and it's
> just let me down.
>
> The vehicle is on its original engine (156000 miles) with, (so far as I
> can
> tell since I've only had it about a year) no major services or repairs. It
> uses almost no oil, which given what I have heard about this engine at
> this
> milage I find pretty surprising.
>
> Normally it's used for tootling round the Peak District - rarely more than
> 15
> miles from home - but last weekend (New Year's day) I did a run from near
> Buxton down to Ross on Wye and back to collect a dumper. It behaved pretty
> well, but seemed to get quite hot when towing the loaded trailer (upper
> end
> of the white section on the dial - never into the red while the engine was
> running although it would sneak up when the engine was turned off).
>
> Tonight, I have just set out on a short journey and after about three
> miles,
> the heater went cold (it's never been very hot, but it actually went from
> warm to cold this time) and the temperature gauge rushed up to the red
> region. I stopped and took a look under the bonnet and while the cooling
> system cap blew steam at me when I (carefully, and with gloves on!)
> loosened
> it, the fan drive was loose (ie.e the viscous coupling was not hot) and
> the
> engine block was still cold enough to be able to touch with a hand.
>
> I've let the thing cool for twenty minutes (easily long enough - it's well
> below zero on Tideswell Moor tonight! ) and then driven it home. On the
> way
> home, the needle went up to the red, then came down and then went back up
> again.
>
> My inclination is to think that the thermostat is buggered, and I'll go
> and
> take it off in a minute and see what happens without it, but if anyone can
> confirm this, or give me any other ideas (or, more significantly, tell me
> if
> they think this is a pre-cursor to something more serious, such as water
> pump
> failure), I'd be grateful.
>
> TIA
>
> Nick.
>

Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:

> ...
> Tonight, I have just set out on a short journey and after about three
> miles,
> the heater went cold (it's never been very hot, but it actually went from
> warm to cold this time)

sounds like water is not reaching the heater

> and the temperature gauge rushed up to the red
> region.

> I stopped and took a look under the bonnet and while the cooling
> system cap blew steam at me when I (carefully, and with gloves on!)
> loosened
> it,

did you notice if the coolant level was lower than normal?

> ...
> My inclination is to think that the thermostat is buggered, and I'll go
> and
> take it off in a minute and see what happens without it, but if anyone
> can
> confirm this, or give me any other ideas (or, more significantly, tell
> me if
> they think this is a pre-cursor to something more serious, such as water
> pump
> failure), I'd be grateful.

Well - it does sound like you're losing cooolant fluid. As for how
serious that is will depend on what you find when digging around.

--
William Tasso

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:35:38 +0000, William Tasso wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

> Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> ...
>> Tonight, I have just set out on a short journey and after about three
>> miles,
>> the heater went cold (it's never been very hot, but it actually went from
>> warm to cold this time)
>
> sounds like water is not reaching the heater
>
>> and the temperature gauge rushed up to the red
>> region.
>
>> I stopped and took a look under the bonnet and while the cooling
>> system cap blew steam at me when I (carefully, and with gloves on!)
>> loosened
>> it,
>
> did you notice if the coolant level was lower than normal?
>
>> ...
>> My inclination is to think that the thermostat is buggered, and I'll go
>> and
>> take it off in a minute and see what happens without it, but if anyone
>> can
>> confirm this, or give me any other ideas (or, more significantly, tell
>> me if
>> they think this is a pre-cursor to something more serious, such as water
>> pump
>> failure), I'd be grateful.
>
> Well - it does sound like you're losing cooolant fluid. As for how
> serious that is will depend on what you find when digging around.
>
>

I took the thermostat out (managing to shear off two of the bolts in the
process - those new stud removers I got for Christmas were a blessing!). Put
it all back together without ithe thermostat but had to put an extra gallon
of coolant in! It now runs, cold as expected.

So, as you say, it's loosing coolant, and I guess (from Andrew's comment)
that it's probably the head gasket which has gone. There's no sign of water
in the engine oil, so presumably this means the water is escaping into a pot
and out of the exhaust.

What are the risks from running this for a short while (on short runs)
without attempting to fix it ? - stripping the head off was really not in the
list of things to do this weekend. Also, apart from a new gasket, what other
bits are going to be required (assuming I do not find any other horror
stories once it's in pieces)?

Nick.

In message <[email protected]>
Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 09:35:38 +0000, William Tasso wrote
> (in article <[email protected]>):
>
> > Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >> ...
> >> Tonight, I have just set out on a short journey and after about three
> >> miles,
> >> the heater went cold (it's never been very hot, but it actually went from
> >> warm to cold this time)
> >
> > sounds like water is not reaching the heater
> >
> >> and the temperature gauge rushed up to the red
> >> region.
> >
> >> I stopped and took a look under the bonnet and while the cooling
> >> system cap blew steam at me when I (carefully, and with gloves on!)
> >> loosened
> >> it,
> >
> > did you notice if the coolant level was lower than normal?
> >
> >> ...
> >> My inclination is to think that the thermostat is buggered, and I'll go
> >> and
> >> take it off in a minute and see what happens without it, but if anyone
> >> can
> >> confirm this, or give me any other ideas (or, more significantly, tell
> >> me if
> >> they think this is a pre-cursor to something more serious, such as water
> >> pump
> >> failure), I'd be grateful.
> >
> > Well - it does sound like you're losing cooolant fluid. As for how
> > serious that is will depend on what you find when digging around.
> >
> >
>
> I took the thermostat out (managing to shear off two of the bolts in the
> process - those new stud removers I got for Christmas were a blessing!). Put
> it all back together without ithe thermostat but had to put an extra gallon
> of coolant in! It now runs, cold as expected.
>
> So, as you say, it's loosing coolant, and I guess (from Andrew's comment)
> that it's probably the head gasket which has gone. There's no sign of water
> in the engine oil, so presumably this means the water is escaping into a pot
> and out of the exhaust.
>
> What are the risks from running this for a short while (on short runs)
> without attempting to fix it ? - stripping the head off was really not in the
> list of things to do this weekend. Also, apart from a new gasket, what other
> bits are going to be required (assuming I do not find any other horror
> stories once it's in pieces)?
>
> Nick.
>

Before whipping the head off, have a look at the back (i.e. inside the
engine bay) of the radiator - are the fins in good order? If not
this can lead to over heating when working harder than normal, and
possibly your trip dumped the water - certainly the heater stopping
working is a classic loss of coolant indicator.

If the rad is in good knick, then sadly the head gasket is suspect - run
the engine with the raditor cap off - does water get pumped out?

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:

> ...
> it's loosing coolant, and I guess (from Andrew's comment)
> that it's probably the head gasket which has gone.

Well, that's what I thought with my V8 (an opinion bolstered by replies in
here[1]) but a quick look by a local knowledgeable one identified the
water pump as the problem - play on the shaft that drives the fan letting
water escape. Obvious when you know, but meaningless if you don't.

I'd recommend getting help from a pro with the diagnosis even if you're up
to tackling the tasks yourself - no point in needless work.

> There's no sign of water
> in the engine oil, so presumably this means the water is escaping into a
> pot
> and out of the exhaust.

or a leak hose/joint perhaps (if you're lucky) - not enough info to tell.

> What are the risks from running this for a short while (on short runs)
> without attempting to fix it ?

Well - you know what the book answer is. The application of common sense
is up to you. I guess it depends on the rate of fluid loss. For my part
I limited journeys to gathering tools/materials required for the task.

In any event, good luck.

[1] news:alt.fan.landrover
--
William Tasso

110 V8 (white)

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:30:22 +0000, beamendsltd wrote
(in article <8c4bf7e44d%[email protected]>):


>
> Before whipping the head off, have a look at the back (i.e. inside the
> engine bay) of the radiator - are the fins in good order? If not
> this can lead to over heating when working harder than normal, and
> possibly your trip dumped the water - certainly the heater stopping
> working is a classic loss of coolant indicator.
>
> If the rad is in good knick, then sadly the head gasket is suspect - run
> the engine with the raditor cap off - does water get pumped out?
>
> Richard
>

Thanks, Richard.

A thought though: could water in the cylinder be the cause of the misfire
when starting from cold which I posted about before Christmas?

Nick.

In message <[email protected]>
Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:30:22 +0000, beamendsltd wrote
> (in article <8c4bf7e44d%[email protected]>):
>
>
> >
> > Before whipping the head off, have a look at the back (i.e. inside the
> > engine bay) of the radiator - are the fins in good order? If not
> > this can lead to over heating when working harder than normal, and
> > possibly your trip dumped the water - certainly the heater stopping
> > working is a classic loss of coolant indicator.
> >
> > If the rad is in good knick, then sadly the head gasket is suspect - run
> > the engine with the raditor cap off - does water get pumped out?
> >
> > Richard
> >
>
> Thanks, Richard.
>
> A thought though: could water in the cylinder be the cause of the misfire
> when starting from cold which I posted about before Christmas?
>
> Nick.
>
It's certainly a possibility, but could also be a red herring!

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay

In article <55377e54d%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
<[email protected]> writes
>In message <[email protected]>
> Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:30:22 +0000, beamendsltd wrote
>> (in article <8c4bf7e44d%[email protected]>):
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Before whipping the head off, have a look at the back (i.e. inside the
>> > engine bay) of the radiator - are the fins in good order? If not
>> > this can lead to over heating when working harder than normal, and
>> > possibly your trip dumped the water - certainly the heater stopping
>> > working is a classic loss of coolant indicator.
>> >
>> > If the rad is in good knick, then sadly the head gasket is suspect - run
>> > the engine with the raditor cap off - does water get pumped out?
>> >
>> > Richard
>> >
>>
>> Thanks, Richard.
>>
>> A thought though: could water in the cylinder be the cause of the misfire
>> when starting from cold which I posted about before Christmas?
>>
>> Nick.
>>
>It's certainly a possibility, but could also be a red herring!

Nah. It'd never get through a split that size...

.... I'll get me coat.

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 16:08:38 +0000, SpamTrapSeeSig wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

> In article <55377e54d%[email protected]>, beamendsltd
> <[email protected]> writes

>> It's certainly a possibility, but could also be a red herring!
>
> Nah. It'd never get through a split that size...
>
> ... I'll get me coat.
>
> Simonm.
>
>
We know where you live.....

Nick.

In article <[email protected]>, Nick
Williams <[email protected]> writes
>SpamTrapSeeSig wrote :
>> ... I'll get me coat.
>> Simonm.
>>
>We know where you live.....
>
>Nick.

<thinks>
Perhaps I'll repaint the Landy this week-end rather than in the
summer...


Regards,

Simonm.

--
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK www.ukip.org
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU www.members.aol.com/eurofaq
GT250A'76 R80/RT'86 110CSW TD'88 www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 15:17:17 +0000, beamendsltd wrote
(in article <55377e54d%[email protected]>):

> In message <[email protected]>
> Nick Williams <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 12:30:22 +0000, beamendsltd wrote
>> (in article <8c4bf7e44d%[email protected]>):
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Before whipping the head off, have a look at the back (i.e. inside the
>>> engine bay) of the radiator - are the fins in good order? If not
>>> this can lead to over heating when working harder than normal, and
>>> possibly your trip dumped the water - certainly the heater stopping
>>> working is a classic loss of coolant indicator.
>>>
>>> If the rad is in good knick, then sadly the head gasket is suspect - run
>>> the engine with the raditor cap off - does water get pumped out?
>>>
>>> Richard
>>>
>>
>> Thanks, Richard.
>>
>> A thought though: could water in the cylinder be the cause of the misfire
>> when starting from cold which I posted about before Christmas?
>>
>> Nick.
>>
> It's certainly a possibility, but could also be a red herring!
>
> Richard
>

Put a new thermostat in this morning and it's behaving as normal again. No
obvious signs of leaks, but it's a cold and claggy morning here and it's
difficult to distinguish spillage from the removal of the thermostat housing,
splashes from water off the road from anything newly leaked from the cooling
system.

More significantly (I hope!) there is no sign of any pressurisation of the
cooling system from the cylinders, either when cold or hot. I take this to be
a good sign with regard to the head gasket.

I'm going to keep a close eye on it for a while, and hopefully it will keep
going until the weather is a bit more conducive to working outside. The
timing belt needs doing shortly, so this will provide a good opportunity for
close inspection of the radiator and water pump etc, and I will have my other
wheels back by then.

Nick.