condensation 101

Now the weather has got colder i have noticed that the 101 always has
condensation on the inside of the roof.
Since im currently half way through fitting new roof panels due to
water damage on the old one i really dont want to see this!

My car doesnt seem to have any condensation inside it in the morning -
what causes it to form in the 101?

It is almost leak free now (slight drip off the roof hatch still), and
all the floor/engine panels are fitted (though no sealed or bolted
down).

any advice?

On 2006-11-05, Tom Woods <[email protected]> wrote:

> Now the weather has got colder i have noticed that the 101 always has
> condensation on the inside of the roof.

This is moisture from the air condensing on the cold metal roof, you
get that on Defender hard-top as well. I tried to sleep in the back
of mine once but was kept awake by the dripping of the condensation on
my sleeping bag!

It stops happening once the underside of the roof is covered with
something, you could stick some carpet up there or something. In my
110 I used to get condensation above the load bed but not above the
passenger compartment as this had headlining.

> My car doesnt seem to have any condensation inside it in the morning -
> what causes it to form in the 101?

The lack of a large, cold, bare metal roof in contact with the moist
air inside!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Tom Woods wrote:

|| Now the weather has got colder i have noticed that the 101 always has
|| condensation on the inside of the roof.
|| Since im currently half way through fitting new roof panels due to
|| water damage on the old one i really dont want to see this!
||
|| My car doesnt seem to have any condensation inside it in the morning
|| - what causes it to form in the 101?

Lack of headlining. A bit of insulation to keep the moist inside air away
from the cold metal of the roof will do the trick. A bit of old carpet
glued on would do, but something with a decent airspace and a fill of
insulating material would be a better solution.

I have my self-build motorhome head on today.

--
Rich
==============================

2001 Disco II ES auto
1971 S2a 88" petrol
1991 Transit Camper

Take out the obvious to email me.

Thanks Richard and Ian.

It is currently bare metal in the back half as i'm still in the process
of fitting the insulation and lining back. So i assume the condensation
will stop when that is there (and hopefully not still happen behind the
lining!).

At the front i have refitted the sheets. No condensation on the wood,
but there was on the thin metal trim strip inbetween the sheets. I
suppose there isnt a lot i can do about this?

Tom Woods wrote:

|| Thanks Richard and Ian.
||
|| It is currently bare metal in the back half as i'm still in the
|| process of fitting the insulation and lining back. So i assume the
|| condensation will stop when that is there (and hopefully not still
|| happen behind the lining!).
||
|| At the front i have refitted the sheets. No condensation on the wood,
|| but there was on the thin metal trim strip inbetween the sheets. I
|| suppose there isnt a lot i can do about this?

You have a "cold bridge". This can cause condensation to track within the
insulation sandwich and cause a lot of rot before you can see it. It's
worthwhile finding some way to insulate the metal so this doesn't happen.
Even a bit of underlay glued to the metal would help. Think of a DPM in a
house wall - you wouldn't tolerate a break in the membrane on the grounds
that only a bit of moisture would get through. I've been doing a lot of
research into self-builds recently, and I've heard of a lot of cases where
even a screw that bridges the gap between the outside metal and some metal
on the inside can cause terminal rot over a period of years.

--
Rich
==============================

2001 Disco II ES auto
1971 S2a 88" petrol
1991 Transit Camper

Take out the obvious to email me.

On 2006-11-05, Tom Woods <[email protected]> wrote:

> It is currently bare metal in the back half as i'm still in the process
> of fitting the insulation and lining back. So i assume the condensation
> will stop when that is there (and hopefully not still happen behind the
> lining!).

I believe that the condensation occurs because there's plenty of fresh
air to circulate to the surface through convection, bringing fresh
moisture all the time. Putting a headlining there greatly reduces the
amount of air that reaches the metal pretty much down to the air
that's trapped between the metal and the headlining, so the
condensation is restricted to the water that was contained in that
small volume of air.

However when I say "I believe", you should bear the image of Kenny
Everett and his "Brotherly Love" preacher sketch in mind..

> At the front i have refitted the sheets. No condensation on the wood,
> but there was on the thin metal trim strip inbetween the sheets. I
> suppose there isnt a lot i can do about this?

Not really, I doubt you'd find that this thin strip actually causes it
to rain inside the vehicle, like the bare rear roof can.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Ian Rawlings wrote:

|| On 2006-11-05, Tom Woods <[email protected]> wrote:
||
||| It is currently bare metal in the back half as i'm still in the
||| process of fitting the insulation and lining back. So i assume the
||| condensation will stop when that is there (and hopefully not still
||| happen behind the lining!).
||
|| I believe that the condensation occurs because there's plenty of
|| fresh air to circulate to the surface through convection, bringing
|| fresh moisture all the time. Putting a headlining there greatly
|| reduces the amount of air that reaches the metal pretty much down to
|| the air that's trapped between the metal and the headlining, so the
|| condensation is restricted to the water that was contained in that
|| small volume of air.
||
|| However when I say "I believe", you should bear the image of Kenny
|| Everett and his "Brotherly Love" preacher sketch in mind..
||
||| At the front i have refitted the sheets. No condensation on the
||| wood, but there was on the thin metal trim strip inbetween the
||| sheets. I suppose there isnt a lot i can do about this?
||
|| Not really, I doubt you'd find that this thin strip actually causes
|| it to rain inside the vehicle, like the bare rear roof can.
||
|| --
|| Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

It wouldn't cause visible condensation, but that's the problem - the
moisture will be there, but hidden within the structure. You'll only find
out about it when you investigate a stain or a funny smell and find that the
woodwork needs ripping out and replacing.

Perhaps I'm being a bit anal about this, but I assume that Tom is a Land
Rover man through and through and would like to build something that will
last until the next millennium If you want a belt'n'braces job,
insulating absolutely everything is the only option. Any cold bridge will
cause rot eventually. (OK, everything is going to rot eventually, but good
insulation will increase the life of the project by a factor of lots.)

--
Rich
==============================

2001 Disco II ES auto
1971 S2a 88" petrol
1991 Transit Camper

Take out the obvious to email me.

On 2006-11-05, Richard Brookman <[email protected]> wrote:

> It wouldn't cause visible condensation, but that's the problem - the
> moisture will be there, but hidden within the structure. You'll only find
> out about it when you investigate a stain or a funny smell and find that the
> woodwork needs ripping out and replacing.

I avoid this kind of problem by not investigating stains or funny
smells, nothing good ever comes of it.

> Perhaps I'm being a bit anal about this,

Anal stains and funny smells?

> but I assume that Tom is a Land Rover man through and through and
> would like to build something that will last until the next
> millennium

Don't forget all those body and chassis cavities too, and broken paint
surfaces. Rust is a total PITA. My krautwagen comes with a cavity
insulation guide which is useful, it shows you where all the pathways
into the bodywork are so you know that if you're sealing it, that
you've not only sprayed half a panel due to some internal structural
element that blocks the other half of a panel.

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Tom Woods <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> Now the weather has got colder i have noticed that the 101 always has
> condensation on the inside of the roof.
> Since im currently half way through fitting new roof panels due to
> water damage on the old one i really dont want to see this!
>
> My car doesnt seem to have any condensation inside it in the morning -
> what causes it to form in the 101?
>
> It is almost leak free now (slight drip off the roof hatch still), and
> all the floor/engine panels are fitted (though no sealed or bolted
> down).
>
> any advice?


Yeahs, been there!

Firstly you will never stop it all unless you carpet the roof. Make sure you
use a non flammable carpet or padded roof held up by velcro.

Sort the leak out, that is allowing water in to the truck , the more water
the more condensation.

Try and find a roof vent that allows condensation up and out.

Once the roof leak is sorted the condensation will be slashed and you will
only find minute amounts on the trim between pannels. This can create some
interesting effects in a long cold spell!

Run the vehicle regular in the winter to air it out, though try and avoid
short start stop trips.

Many caravanners suffer this problem too, if they can't get around it in a
caravan you've little chance in a 101 however you can fit either a electric
dehumidifier in the winter or one of those crystal doofers which you then
dry out. They do help I'm led to believe.

I always try and park my 101 such that the winter sun is on the cab windows
as much as possible.

Lee D

Is the roof a single panel of ally ? If it isn't it could be.
Steve

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 14:57:51 -0000, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Yeahs, been there!
>
>Firstly you will never stop it all unless you carpet the roof. Make sure you
>use a non flammable carpet or padded roof held up by velcro.

im using white laminated wooden sheets for my roof held up with that
metal B&Q trim!

>Sort the leak out, that is allowing water in to the truck , the more water
>the more condensation.

it is only a tiny leak. its actually coming in through the rivets in
the top of the roof hatch i think! it is the only bit of roof i havent
painted and it looks like i shouild have done!

>Try and find a roof vent that allows condensation up and out.

i shall have a look at the caravan places.. wonder if my old scrapper
caravan has one in it?
>
>Once the roof leak is sorted the condensation will be slashed and you will
>only find minute amounts on the trim between pannels. This can create some
>interesting effects in a long cold spell!
>
>Run the vehicle regular in the winter to air it out, though try and avoid
>short start stop trips.

>Many caravanners suffer this problem too, if they can't get around it in a
>caravan you've little chance in a 101 however you can fit either a electric
>dehumidifier in the winter or one of those crystal doofers which you then
>dry out. They do help I'm led to believe.

hmm. wonder if i can just invest in thermostat/timer switch for the
eber and set that to run for 5 mins a day - though maybe an electric
one would be safer for unnatended use?
>
>I always try and park my 101 such that the winter sun is on the cab windows
>as much as possible.

got that bit covered!. it faces the sun in the morning - the 101
windows have been defrosted the last few mornings when ive gone to
work when my car has still been frosty.

>Lee D
>

On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 17:02:38 +0000, steve
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Is the roof a single panel of ally ? If it isn't it could be.

It is either one big sheet or a couple.. i think there may be a
crossways join just behind the roof hatch.
My roof has absolutely no leaks in now! - its just the hatch!

Its the rivets that held the roof cross on that make it leak.

>Steve

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 12:54:08 +0000, Ian Rawlings <[email protected]>
wrote:

>On 2006-11-05, Richard Brookman <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> It wouldn't cause visible condensation, but that's the problem - the
>> moisture will be there, but hidden within the structure. You'll only find
>> out about it when you investigate a stain or a funny smell and find that the
>> woodwork needs ripping out and replacing.
>
>I avoid this kind of problem by not investigating stains or funny
>smells, nothing good ever comes of it.
>
>> Perhaps I'm being a bit anal about this,
>
>Anal stains and funny smells?
>
>> but I assume that Tom is a Land Rover man through and through and
>> would like to build something that will last until the next
>> millennium
>
from how over engineered the 101 ambi is it should last!.

The only rust i have to worry about is down in my chassis!

everything is already insulated by marshalls. if they hadnt put a big
folding cross on the roof held on my loads of rivets i would have been
able to leave the roof panels alone

Tom Woods wrote:
> if they hadnt put a big
> folding cross on the roof held on my loads of rivets i would have been
> able to leave the roof panels alone

Got a TIG ?

On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 14:57:51 -0000, "Lee_D"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Try and find a roof vent that allows condensation up and out.

Would a roof vent totally prevent condensation?

my old caravan has something like this :

http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=2620

in the roof.

Would any sort of atmospheric vent solve the problem? I could just
drill a bog round hole and fit some sort of tube with a lid on..

Tom Woods wrote:
>
> Would any sort of atmospheric vent solve the problem? I could just
> drill a bog round hole and fit some sort of tube with a lid on..

IME no it won't, but it will reduce the problem significantly.

--
EMB

Tom Woods <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:
> On Sun, 5 Nov 2006 14:57:51 -0000, "Lee_D"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> Try and find a roof vent that allows condensation up and out.
>
> Would a roof vent totally prevent condensation?
>
> my old caravan has something like this :
>
> http://www.towsure.com/product.asp?p=2620
>
> in the roof.
>
> Would any sort of atmospheric vent solve the problem? I could just
> drill a bog round hole and fit some sort of tube with a lid on..

Your going to fit a toilet to your roof?... no wonder it has condensation
....


;-)

Lee D

On 2006-11-07, Lee_D <[email protected]> wrote:

> Your going to fit a toilet to your roof?... no wonder it has condensation
> ...

The ex-army canvas on my 110 has some tiny little holes about a foot
from the roof that appear to be intended for the aerials of radio gear
to poke through.

So why is it that *everyone* who ever remarks on them asks me if
they're for peeing through? You'd have to be a tiny-dicked
contortionist to do that.

I suspect the British psyche has rather too much of an obsession with
lavatories..

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!

Ian Rawlings wrote:
>
> The ex-army canvas on my 110 has some tiny little holes about a foot
> from the roof that appear to be intended for the aerials of radio gear
> to poke through.
>
> So why is it that *everyone* who ever remarks on them asks me if
> they're for peeing through? You'd have to be a tiny-dicked
> contortionist to do that.

my mates 109 has similar holes (though they are bigger than the ones
you describe). They have a 6 inch long 'trunk' on them too.

Peeing through them has been brought up various times

On 2006-11-07, Tom Woods <[email protected]> wrote:

> my mates 109 has similar holes (though they are bigger than the ones
> you describe). They have a 6 inch long 'trunk' on them too.
>
> Peeing through them has been brought up various times

Bonkers isn't it.

I also get asked if it's an ex-army truck, or if I'm in the army, or
"where's the invasion mate" etc etc. I could understand that in the
krautwagen but in a 75% bright red landy with a green canvas?

In the Pinzgauer it's "where's the war", "is that a unimog", "my mate
reckons that's a Stalwart" or "What's that? A what? A what? A what?"

Bloody people!!!!

--
Blast off and strike the evil Bydo empire!