Classic Non Staring, is killing us, please help us...

Hi all
I have a 1990 RR classic 3.9 with LPG, non Cat.
Chassis :- SALLHAM 3GA45****
Engine :- 36D07***A

This is my first post, sorry it may be a bit long, but it included all the data for my problem so far. My reason for buying one was two fold, firstly, I have wanted one ever since I worked on them when they were new. Secondly, my partner can not go very far without the car and we have been housebound for nearly two weeks, it's killing us both not having a car.

I could live with cranking her over for a few minutes until she finally kicked into life, holding the throttle so she warmed up, then away we go.
If I kept her on petrol, she was fine for about 5 minutes of normal urban driving, then all of a sudden, she would lurch, again and again. I could not go over 1500 rpm, nor over 40 mph. no sharp jabs on the throttle, but switch to gas and all was fine.

Also on Petrol or gas she would stall occasionally.
Switching to gas also required neutral plus 1500 rpm +, to kick the gas in, so something is happening under load.
Also, it never went as well as I imagined it should do, if you know what I mean.

Sprayed everything with WD40, still the same.
Replaced the fuel filter, loads of crud, but happened again almost immediately.

Idle Valve, a bit gummed up, but now cleaned.

Bought a ton of official RR Worksop manuals, to get some data on her and testing conditions I carried out these tests:-

Throttle Pot, RR Manual 0.33 > 0.35v. I got 0.325 to 0.35V
Air flow meter Red/Black & Blue/Red wires = 1.0 > 1.5v. I got 2.08, so adjusted it to 1.8v, as I thought she was the Cat version, which I now find out she is not.

Water Temp sensor, Manual says :-
0 Degs = 5700 > 5900
20 Degs = 2400 > 2600
It was around 10 Degs and I got 3840, so its within range.

I changed the Tune selector resistor from the Green 470 ohm to the Red 180 ohm to see if it would re-set the ECU as I discovered it was an adaptable ECU, no change.

So this is where the next problem arose, I changed the Dizzy cap and Rotor arm for OE Genuine Land Rover ones. Everything was fine, until I pulled the rotor arm off, all the guts came with it.

Lined up flywheel on TDC, marked the dizzy and rotor and removed the dizzy. Upon stripping, I noticed that the bob weights had no springs attached, so I though, great here is the answer to my starting problem.

It seemed very clean and there was no real movement on the shaft.
I set the air gap to 0.30 mm, (RR Manual). Gleefully reassembling the car, I then turned her over, nothing, zip zilch. And that has been it ever since.

I spent the next 3 nights out on the road, (no off street parking in this area), timing her, re-timing her, stripped the dizzy again to see if I had assembled the Bob weights correctly and they seemed fine as far as I can tell they can fit either way. At some point I did get a backfire through the exhaust.
Now she seems to almost catch, but it just wont.

These tests were done:
Test 1 A, Coil HT lead 6mm from earth, thick yellow spark (Should it not be a Blue Spark?)
Low Tension Testing
Test 2 A, Battery Volts = 12.56v (Been cranking her prior)
Test 2 B, Battery Volts = 13.10v Charging
Test 2 C, Battery ( - ) to Coil ( + ) 12.92v
Test 2 D, Battery ( - ) to Coil ( - ) 12.92v
Test 2 E, Ign/Amp Bolt to earth 0.00v
Amplifier Switching
Test 3 A, Battery ( + ) to Coil ( - ) Ign Off = 13.27v
Test 3 B, Battery ( + ) to Coil ( - ) Ign On = 0.07v
Test 3 C, Battery ( + ) to Coil ( - ) Ign Cranking = 3.10 > 2.10v
Raining so stopped testing.

Today I got an Intermotor 11330 coil as no one in my area had a OE one not even RR themselves. This produced a lesser spark, but it seemed to be blue-ish. I have since discovered that the correct Intermotor part number is 11410, so that will be changed today.
Also by the time you read this I will also have an Intermotor Ignition Amplifier which I hope to be a 15420.

So, I have a dead car, and little idea where to go next, I was thinking of getting a new battery as I have no idea what its age is, plus my battery charger has died too. I do not have a huge wallet at this time of year so I will spend what is necessary but I just hope it won't kill the bank.

Please if anyone can shed some light on this we would be truly grateful, we just want to drive her again and get back to normal.
Yours
Josh

:welcome2:

Are you sure you have the distributor timing set right? When you re-insert the body into the engine the shaft turns because of the helical gear, so it can be tricky to ensure that the timing is as it should be.

You need No 1 cylinder at TDC on its compression stroke, and the rotor arm aligned with No 1 cylinder HT lead.

Pete

I would be looking at the fuel side of things If she ran OK on LPG. Its normal for the LPG changover to happen on a rising rev at 1500.

if electrical proplem would be worse on lpg as mentioned by rewmer have you checked temp sensor on front passenger side inlet manifold it alters fueling to fit temperature like a choke ,can you hear stepper motor whirring when put ignition on off,not starting is probably something youve done since ,have you got tdc with number 1 (passenger side front one) on compressiom stroke (both valves shut) and not 180 out,sorry pete already said that bit,

as pete says for your later problem and hen for your original problem I would say fuel pump for its relays.

Hi to you all and thanks for all your answers.


Peter,
I read in the book that the rotor arm needs to be set to 30 degs before the no1 pot on the cap. I must admit it took some time to get it right though.


Rewmer,
I noticed that under no load it would easily rev past 1500, under load it would not ands judder.
Whilst cranking, it would try to cat, so spraying easy start in would (in my mind) do one of two things, a) start the engine or b) stop igniting as there is already sufficient fuel to get it started. It turned out to be the latter, so therefore I deduced that we were looking at an ignition problem.

Jamesmartin,
Checked temp sensor? Nope but will do.
Hear stepper motor whirring, Nope but give it a go.
Probably something you've done since. Yup you are probably right...

Fett,
I have a used one that I was given so I though I would give it a go, but I can hear the pump priming up for about 1 to 2 seconds.

I received a new coil, not happy as it was a Motorquip, but what can you do in this backwater town.
So I'll let you know how successful it's been.

Report back soon.

jjandrj6679 said:

Peter,
I read in the book that the rotor arm needs to be set to 30 degs before the no1 pot on the cap. I must admit it took some time to get it right though

Click to expand...

Yes that's right.

Good luck!

Pete

It turned out to be the latter, so therefore I deduced that we were looking at an ignition problem.

Not necessarily - coil/dizzy/timing Ok but plugs too wet to fire.

I had something similar after a top end rebuild, THis thread http://www.landyzone.co.uk/lz/f10/v8-rebuilt-wont-start-wet-plugs-111888.html -has the details.

After cranking, take a plug out and see if it's wet. If the injection system's been messed with it gets confused and needs to be run for a while to 'get it's head clear'.

Comprehensive explanation of the injection system here - Fuel injection - bit wordy but worth ploughing through.

Good luck.

Alastair

Well today I put a new coil and ignition module in, done in two stages (raining again). Coil first, it was a bigger spark than I had before but still yellow. But upon tuning it over, it seemed to want to catch, so between adj the dizzy and starting her, I flattened the battery.

Pulled out the dizzy to see if I was one tooth out on the spline and added the ignition module, fitted it back in and tried to turn her over to see if there was a spark.
From the slow turn over, I think I caught a glimpse of a blue spark.
I sat there for ten minutes and waited for the battery to recover and gave it another bash.
It managed to turn over a couple of times and from what I heard, it sounded like it wanted to fire up.

So am I onto a winner?
Well I'll let you know tomorrow when I put the charged battery on.
One thing I notice, that when I came to put the battery on, it was bubbling, slightly, so that needs replacing too.

As to the timing, when I try an place the dizzy in when the timing is on TDC, it always seems as if it site just before or just after the no1 ht plug, never on it as it has been described to me. I must have pulled it out over 10 times and sun it 180 countless times trying to figure if it's right or not.

What I would need, is a idiots guide to timing up a V8.
Pictorial type so it is impossible to get wrong.
One of the dizzy and rotor arm in the right position before and after fitting it.
I have yet to find something like that yet.
Anyone point me in the right direction?

Checked temp sensor? Nope ran out of time.
Hear stepper motor whirring, Nope ran out of time.
Checked the pick up resistance, static it was 2980 ohms and then fluctuated to 3800 odd when moved.
According to the bible it should be between 2 and 3000 ohms, so that’s ok.

Odyssey
I pulled out a plug to be sure and found that yews it was wet, but not overly, I'd say more like damp than wet.
I am going to cross my fingers and stick a fully charged battery on her tomorrow and hope the blue spark that I thought was there is there and will be man enough to kick her into life.
Thanks for the URL, converted it to PDF and have a good read in bed.


Back soon JJ

jjandrj6679 said:

What I would need, is a idiots guide to timing up a V8.
Pictorial type so it is impossible to get wrong.
One of the dizzy and rotor arm in the right position before and after fitting it.
I have yet to find something like that yet.
Anyone point me in the right direction?

Click to expand...

Hi mate

I can't help with a video guide, but here are the instructions for basic set-up from the official workshop manual. It's a bit more detailed than the Haynes version so it might help.

Pete

Hi Pete

There are no markings on my plastic see through cover. But I will check where the reluctor ring is pointing though.

I think I have managed to upload a pictur taken last night.
So that I can show you what I'm on about.
You can see the TDC white mark (just and the wmite mark on the dizzy body is the No 1 pot on the cap.

The problem is that before all this dizzy problems started she was a bugger to start in the cold, so she would churn over a fair few times before she would finally come to life, coaxing her more like.

So it makes it very difficult to see /hear if you have it timed up, because she still wont fire up on the button..so to speak.

Going to put the freshley charged battery on in an hour so I'll report back soon.

JJ

Just a couple of observations - apologies if it sounds like I am stating the bleedin' obvious!

• the engine needs to be at TDC on the compression stroke for No 1 cylinder.
  
• The manual I posted earlier states that the vacuum advance should be at approx 90 degrees to the crankshaft (i.e. it should be straight up and down in your pic) whereas yours looks to be twisted anti-clockwise by about 20 degrees?

Pete

Hi All

Well she started on the button in less than 5 deg C.

Lumpy as hell, but that’s coz I had 3 & 5 the wrong way round. But it started on 6 cylinders……

With a fully charged battery, I nearly fell over when it fired up from cold.

Its never done that before, so it really is crap at starting in the cold with a yellow spark! It must be blue..lol

Ok, so basically, I got the No1 piston to TDC, (finger over hole trick)..
Checked that the crank was on TDC (Before I found out that you guys say that these are unreliable???).
chucked in the dizzy at no1.
Bunged that cap on and started her up.
Tried to time her up, but the TDC was about 35 mm to the left of the marker, and the dizzy was slammed up against the thermostat housing.

Ripped the dizzy out and moved it so that the rotor arm was betwixt No1 & No8.
Started her up and timed her to 2 to 4 Degs to the left of the marker.
Which I believe to be After TDC, so Id better go and rectify that in the morning.
For some reason I got it into my head that it was supposed to be 1 Deg ATDC?? Too much reading..

My partner an I decided to go on a 35 mile round trip test drive, to the in-laws, stay a couple of hours and come back, that would allow it to cool down so I could see if the cold starting was really cured. It was and even the in-laws were impressed and they had expected me to be out there for 5 mins starting her.

On the way there I went up the A12, long, straight road. Pulled out of the LPG garage and floored it, I was gob smacked as it never threw me in the seat like that before, it was amazing, so quick to 60. Before on kick down it made a lot of noise and increased speed, and I would not have called it acceleration either.
It was also very responsive to the throttle, not something I am used to with this beast.

On the way back however, it started pinking on good acceleration, which I put down to the dizzy moving as it was not fully tightened down, just in case I had to move it. So I set it back to where it was before with the timing gun, and it still pinked.


I surmised that where ever the dizzy was sitting when I pulled out of the LPG garage was the best place for it.
Now re-reading the 1990 manual and not the 1987 manual I find that it is supposed to be 4 degs BTDC, which means I'm out by 8 degs, accounting for the pinking.

As for the petrol side of things, it still lurches after 5 minutes of driving, so I'll report back once I have timed her up at 4 or 5 Degs BTDC, but it is neigh on impossible at the mo to drive on petrol.
I am also going to try and drain the tank and put another new filter on to see if that helps.

Ever since I have owned this car, it has been a bitch to start up from cold, ran like it was a 2 litre engine'd RRC, but it now starts on the button, and is a real beast as well, brilliant, something in my life is going right… And it is also thanks to you guys for keeping me going and stopping me scrapping her.

Back tomorrow or possibly sometime over the weekend with an update.

JJ

Great news - well done.

I am looking forward to your further update soon.

Pete