Children in the back

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Fletch1004

New Member
Posts
3
Location
Salisbury
This is my first post in the forum propper (after introduction) and i have done a search to find the answers before starting a new thread but cant find the answers im looking for. There is a wealth of information and opnion out there but im after a bit of clarification if it exists......

im looking to buy a 90 TD5 CSW in the very near future, my worry is that on occasion my children will be traveling in the vehicle with me (3 Girls under 7)

Id like to know the legal and insurance implications of children traveling using inward facing seats with fitted lap belts. Bare in mind that im going to buy a factory fitted CSW and not a converted hard top.

Things im unsure of are:

ages of children allowed to travel in the rear seats (mine are 6 & 5 with the youngest traveling in the front)
use of booster seats on the rear seats
I've heard of insurance companies only insuring passengers in forward facing seats? Is this true?

Appologies if you feel this has been done to death but im still unsure and these are a major consideration for me before buying.

If indeed its not leagal i might go down the 110 route.............
 
Theres been loads of info on this, the general consensus is that you cant, unless you fit forward facing seats in the back. So your mrs's would have to stay at home as you can have 2 in the back and 1 in the front seat.

The side facing seats are not suitable for people (children) who require booster seats.

We got rid of our first 90 and got a 110 csw for this very reason.
 
Your little ones are precious.... Even if it was allowed (which it isn't) they wouldn't fair well in even a medium shunt, so don't do it.
Lap belts are pretty crap even forward facing and I don't allow kids to use the middle rear seat in my 110sw for that reason, I've got 2 kids so all's well for me.
You can fit forward facing seats with proper 3 point belts but not cheap iirc.
 
The legal situation is wonderfully unclear as usual here, and was not set up with old land rovers in mind. It states that you must not fit a booster seat to side-facing seats, and also that children under a certain age/height must use a booster. However, the purpose of a booster is to ensure the shoulder belt fits correctly- since side-facing seats have lap belts only, I'm not sure if it could be argued that the correctly-adjusted lap belt would be sufficient. Equally, if there were no seatbelts fitted to the back seats, that would apparently be fine for anyone over 3.

Retrofitting 2 forward-facing seats is not ideal as they end up close together. This can mean having to fold up one of them to get in and out via the rear door. With them usually being fitted with young children in mind, I fail to see how this can be an acceptable solution. Two rear-facing seats would be better in this respect as access isn't impaired.

The best option would be to trade up to a 110. You could then have three in the second row seats, and either leave the side-facing load area seats for occasional use, or remove them for more load space behind the passengers.
 
I've done a bit of research on this for my needs. It is legal for a child to be in a forward facing seat with a lap belt but it is not safe to use a lap belt with a booster seat. It is not legal for a child to sit in a side facing seat, regardless of what belt is fitted (Edit: I'm referring to kids the age of yours). I'm having a fold-up seat fitted in the back of my 90 which will be enough for us (forward facing with a 3-point harness). It was quite tricky finding a garage to do it tho' as they have to be able to work to the required safety spec. I wouldn't fit 2 tho' - I'd get a 110 with proper seats. There won't be any room in the back of a 90 with 2 seats in. Even when folded they take up a load of space. :)
 
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Thank you for each of the very clear and concise replies.

I wanted a 90 for myself but the girls would like to go on the occasional adventurous school run so it looks like a 110 is the way to go.
 
You can take children in the side facing rear seats if it's a "necessary journey" according to the law.
But only older children, not if they are young enough to need booster seats.
However the real issue is, their safety in a crash.
So l would say get a 110 as suggested above.
I've got a 90 and a 110 TD5 CSW both with the side facing rear seats. I actually prefer driving the 110 as it's less bouncy due to the longer wheelbase.
 
My 5 children from very early ages have traveled in the side facing seats of a series of 110 Csw's, and oddly not killed or injured any of them yet...... I entirely agree lap belts and side facing are not at all ideal from a safety and injury perspective, but we do a variety of other pastimes at least as hazardous, and kind of ensure we don't crash burn die etc etc. Isn't that what life is all about...? (IMHO may I add - others a fully entitled to an opinion and actions entirely at their discretion). Cheers, A
 
I have no kids but have to assume you cherish them? if so a defender is the last place I would put them.
 
Nothing dearer to my heart, but I let them ride motorbikes, horses, and skydive, cycle, cross the road...... Boy do I drive carefully, but never a moment doubt about sitting them in there. Each to their own as I said... Cheers A
 
I love how everyone asks this question.... But if it's a 7 seat discovery 1 no one cares :confused:
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I recall years ago a pal of mine had fabricated a top support bar (not sure how it attached) and had four point harnesses for the side facing seats in the back of his 90. He used to make roll cages so it was probs a proper job... I expect it would be fairly straight forward to make (if you know hoe) and fix it to the bottom securing bar.
 
Nothing dearer to my heart, but I let them ride motorbikes, horses, and skydive, cycle, cross the road...... Boy do I drive carefully, but never a moment doubt about sitting them in there. Each to their own as I said... Cheers A

Skydive, do you fancy a slightly older foster kid, I wont cost you much!
 
This is my first post in the forum propper (after introduction) and i have done a search to find the answers before starting a new thread but cant find the answers im looking for. There is a wealth of information and opnion out there but im after a bit of clarification if it exists......

im looking to buy a 90 TD5 CSW in the very near future, my worry is that on occasion my children will be traveling in the vehicle with me (3 Girls under 7)

Id like to know the legal and insurance implications of children traveling using inward facing seats with fitted lap belts. Bare in mind that im going to buy a factory fitted CSW and not a converted hard top.

Things im unsure of are:

ages of children allowed to travel in the rear seats (mine are 6 & 5 with the youngest traveling in the front)
use of booster seats on the rear seats
I've heard of insurance companies only insuring passengers in forward facing seats? Is this true?

Appologies if you feel this has been done to death but im still unsure and these are a major consideration for me before buying.

If indeed its not leagal i might go down the 110 route.............
I can answer this correctly. As I contacted VOSA on the matter. This was their reply:



Responding to your mail of 6 March to DVSA with the above title.

I attach a link to a Department for Transport Briefing note on the subject:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=htt...QQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFvrExZMJ2_P6ghOMNQjCrlr0JLQw

My reading of this at section 1.3 second bullet point is that if there is no child restraint available (because there is no seat belt available) then a child under 12 or under 1.35m height cannot travel in the rear of a vehicle. However this is potentially contradicted by the table at the beginning of the document tat says for children aged 3-11 and under 1.35 metres height that "child restraints must be used where seat belts fitted" suggesting that children of this age/ height can be carried if there are no belts at all. It leaves an unequivocable statement that children under 3 cannot travel in the rear without there being an appropriate child restraint.

This policy area is the responsibility of Department for Transport centrally rather than any of the Executive Agencies like DVSA. I have tried to contact colleagues at Department for Transport to clarify this today but have drawn a blank. I believe a Clare Broam is responsible for the specific department. I suggest you contact Department for Transport centrally using this link:

https://forms.dft.gov.uk/contact-dft-and-agencies/

I am sorry about this. I can answer virtually any question on road transport legislation but this legislation and the briefing notes provided are just impenetrable.

Steve Whitehart | Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792 454306, Fax: 01792 454387
0


So I emailed the DfT and eventually got this reply from them.


seats & seatbelts - 1970's Land Rover


Thank you for your enquiry about your Landrover.


For adults in the front and rear, seat belts must be used if available.


For children:-


in the front: all those up to 135cms in height (or 12 years or over, whichever comes first) must use the correct child seat/booster for their weight with no exceptions. If over 135cm or 12 years and above, they are treated for the purposes of this legislation as adults;


in the rear: where seat belts are fitted, than the same rules as for front seats apply but there are a few exceptions. One of those says that if belts are not fitted in the rear, then those 3 years and above may travel unrestrained. However, those under 3 years cannot travel – they must always use the correct baby/child seat for their weight in the front or rear.


Beware of sideways facing seats: there is no legal requirement for seat belts to be fitted in sideways facing seats – in an impact, anyone using a belt in a sideways facing seat is at increased risk of serious injury. But if seat belts are installed then they must be used by adults.


Please note especially that where seat belts are fitted, children who are legally required to use baby/child seats/boosters cannot travel in sideways facing seats because baby/child seats/boosters legally cannot be used in sideways facing seats. This does not mean that children may use an adult belt instead in these seats – it means that they cannot travel at all in sideways facing seats where belts are fitted. That may have an effect on carrying capacity. If extra seat belts are installed in the rear in order to carry children, they should be installed on forward or rearward facing seats – baby/child seats/boosters can be used in forward and rearward facing seats.


Nothing in seat belt wearing legislation prevents the carrying of adults in seats that do not have seat belts installed – even if other seats in the rear have belts fitted. It goes without saying however those seats with seat belts should be used first.


Remember that the police can take action if, in the judgement of an officer, passengers are being carried where “the manner in which they are carried is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person”. The penalties for this offence are notably higher than for a seat belt wearing offence.


If you are likely to carry passengers without seat belts, you might consult your insurer about their attitude should there be a claim. And bear in mind that if there is an impact, the body of anyone unrestrained is likely to be a considerable risk to those seated in the front or elsewhere in the rear.

I hope this clarifies the position.

Yours sincerely,

Jeff Gilmore
Department for Transport
PO Correspondence
5/22 Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
LONDON
SW1P 4DR​




You'll want to read it a couple of times to get all the points. But the jist is, if they are over 3 and you don't have belts, then yes it is legal. If you do have belts and they are over 3, but under 12/135cm then no.
 
W


Sorry....but what a load of tosh.

Historically the Defender is the safest car on the road.

No need to say sorry for making stuff up.
You do realise why the defender was no longer imported into the USA dont you?
Sadly people think because the car has a tough image then the car itself must be tough and therefore safe, its not so.
Look at any modern car, ie anything under 20 years old and look at the size of the a,b and c pillars, theres very good reasons they are so thick.
 
Actually the DfT has previously rated the Defender very safe.



Let's face it. There are far more dangerous and risky daily tasks than riding in the back of a Defender. Crossing the road, going on the motorway, driving in rush hour, using the Tube, etc etc.
 
I can answer this correctly. As I contacted VOSA on the matter. This was their reply:



Responding to your mail of 6 March to DVSA with the above title.

I attach a link to a Department for Transport Briefing note on the subject:

http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=htt...QQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNFvrExZMJ2_P6ghOMNQjCrlr0JLQw

My reading of this at section 1.3 second bullet point is that if there is no child restraint available (because there is no seat belt available) then a child under 12 or under 1.35m height cannot travel in the rear of a vehicle. However this is potentially contradicted by the table at the beginning of the document tat says for children aged 3-11 and under 1.35 metres height that "child restraints must be used where seat belts fitted" suggesting that children of this age/ height can be carried if there are no belts at all. It leaves an unequivocable statement that children under 3 cannot travel in the rear without there being an appropriate child restraint.

This policy area is the responsibility of Department for Transport centrally rather than any of the Executive Agencies like DVSA. I have tried to contact colleagues at Department for Transport to clarify this today but have drawn a blank. I believe a Clare Broam is responsible for the specific department. I suggest you contact Department for Transport centrally using this link:

https://forms.dft.gov.uk/contact-dft-and-agencies/

I am sorry about this. I can answer virtually any question on road transport legislation but this legislation and the briefing notes provided are just impenetrable.

Steve Whitehart | Heavy Vehicle Technical Officer
Driver and Vehicle Standards Agency | Ellipse, Padley Road, Swansea SA1 8AN
Phone: 01792 454306, Fax: 01792 454387
0


So I emailed the DfT and eventually got this reply from them.


seats & seatbelts - 1970's Land Rover


Thank you for your enquiry about your Landrover.


For adults in the front and rear, seat belts must be used if available.


For children:-


in the front: all those up to 135cms in height (or 12 years or over, whichever comes first) must use the correct child seat/booster for their weight with no exceptions. If over 135cm or 12 years and above, they are treated for the purposes of this legislation as adults;


in the rear: where seat belts are fitted, than the same rules as for front seats apply but there are a few exceptions. One of those says that if belts are not fitted in the rear, then those 3 years and above may travel unrestrained. However, those under 3 years cannot travel – they must always use the correct baby/child seat for their weight in the front or rear.


Beware of sideways facing seats: there is no legal requirement for seat belts to be fitted in sideways facing seats – in an impact, anyone using a belt in a sideways facing seat is at increased risk of serious injury. But if seat belts are installed then they must be used by adults.


Please note especially that where seat belts are fitted, children who are legally required to use baby/child seats/boosters cannot travel in sideways facing seats because baby/child seats/boosters legally cannot be used in sideways facing seats. This does not mean that children may use an adult belt instead in these seats – it means that they cannot travel at all in sideways facing seats where belts are fitted. That may have an effect on carrying capacity. If extra seat belts are installed in the rear in order to carry children, they should be installed on forward or rearward facing seats – baby/child seats/boosters can be used in forward and rearward facing seats.


Nothing in seat belt wearing legislation prevents the carrying of adults in seats that do not have seat belts installed – even if other seats in the rear have belts fitted. It goes without saying however those seats with seat belts should be used first.


Remember that the police can take action if, in the judgement of an officer, passengers are being carried where “the manner in which they are carried is such that the use of the motor vehicle or trailer involves a danger of injury to any person”. The penalties for this offence are notably higher than for a seat belt wearing offence.


If you are likely to carry passengers without seat belts, you might consult your insurer about their attitude should there be a claim. And bear in mind that if there is an impact, the body of anyone unrestrained is likely to be a considerable risk to those seated in the front or elsewhere in the rear.

I hope this clarifies the position.

Yours sincerely,

Jeff Gilmore
Department for Transport
PO Correspondence
5/22 Great Minster House
33 Horseferry Road
LONDON
SW1P 4DR​




You'll want to read it a couple of times to get all the points. But the jist is, if they are over 3 and you don't have belts, then yes it is legal. If you do have belts and they are over 3, but under 12/135cm then no.

Mr. Gilmore deserves a gold star - now that is a civil servant well worth having imho. Great post thanks, A
 
Actually the DfT has previously rated the Defender very safe.



Let's face it. There are far more dangerous and risky daily tasks than riding in the back of a Defender. Crossing the road, going on the motorway, driving in rush hour, using the Tube, etc etc.


Thats not the whole story though is it?
No mention of speeds or accident details and as its a land rover mag naturally they pick out the bits they think their readers will latch on to.
Im sure around town the defender is just great, get some speed up on and thats not going to be the case.
 
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