On Sat, 25 Sep 2004 23:02:51 GMT, Lon <
[email protected]> wrote:
>Chris J. proclaimed:
>
>> A few weeks ago, I started shopping for a 4X4, and was a bit confused
>> so decided to do some research. Well, I'm no longer a bit confused,
>> I'm now totally confused.
>
> It means you are paying attention.
ROFL!!!
Well, I've learned more from the people in this group than several
months of looking on my own. I'm now back to just somewhat confused.
I'm going to do a google search of this group and see what I can find
on any candidate vehicles.
>> I'm trying to get an understanding of a few things, such as All-wheel
>> drive Vs. low range part-time 4wd. Which is better (and is there a big
>> difference?) for ice and snow, such as trying to go up steep hills in
>> snow?
>
> Problem is that comparing one drive system to another isn't much use.
> The entire vehicle is what matters. For example, for ice and snow a
> full time 4WD or AWD will usually be better--but that alone can't turn
> a poor handling vehicle into an Audi Quattro or Jensen Interceptor FF.
I've basically decided that low-range is a must-have. I took a
friend's two vehicles (a Subaru Outback and a Jeep Wrangler) through
the same bit of mud and sand creekbed. The difference was astounding.
> The part time 4wd with low range option will usually be more for
> hard core offroading. However, not having the front wheels driving
> all the time can add mileage or make for less wear and tear on the
> system--however that doesn't mean that a full time 4wd will be less
> reliable.
The Jeep Liberty (one model, at least) has both low range, and an
on-pavement 4WD (and 2wd) settings. This, in my tentative opinion,
gives me the best of both worlds?
> A full time 4wd or AWD [4wd usually implies low range available] will
> tend to be better for slippery roads...presuming your tires and
> driving skills are good enough.
I'm at 7000 ft in northern arizona. Snow and ice are quite common, and
also prone to be sudden, severe, and unforcast. This can be very
hazardous when back in the mountains on forest service roads, where
there is no cell coverage. So, I'd like a vehicle that can get me out
of trouble.
> Going up steep hills in snow should be no problem for any 4wd, awd,
> unless that hill is so steep you need low range, in which case you'd
> better be a really good offroad driver--particularly if you want to
> come *down* in one piece. Some of the smart 4wd systems such as
> Land Rover's hill descent control can help, but nothing can break
> the laws of physics and traction.
Well, I'm probably not going to be able to get a 4X4 up my driveway in
snow, now that I think about it, because I can't get a car with ABS
down it under control. I just put the left wheels against the curb and
take what I calll the two-ton toboggan ride. It's about 150 ft, 35
degree slope.
>> I'm looking for a small SUV, and there are a lot of rough dirt roads
>> and trails in my area so I would like high clearance. Some SUV's seem
>> to have very poor ground clearance, and I've seen very little in
>> vehicle reviews that actually get into off-road or rough-road
>> capabilities.
>
> Rarely mentioned because so many so-called SUV's are just dolled up
> minivans or station wagons.
And frankly, this has been ticking me off. I'm really sick of salesmen
trying to claim that a vehicle is "good offroad" when even I can tell
it's no such thing.
> An adult male should be able to easily
> slide under a real SUV with no jacks...
you can usually tell just by
> squatting down and looking underneath for expensive pieces just
> waiting for their first encounter with a rock. Most Cute Utes
> will have far too many of these.
I tend to crawl under every vehicle I look at, before doing anything
else. This has saved me a lot of time. For example, I looked at the
Hyundai Santa Fe. IMHO, the most dangerous and vulnerable place for
anything to be hanging down unprotected is near the middle of the
wheel base. The Santa Fe has it's GAS TANK hanging about 1/3 of the
way between the front and rear axles, right under the rear seats. It
hangs down unprotected, like a darn cliff face! It also appears to be
made of plastic. Needless to say, that was as far as I got with
looking at that vehicle.
> If you combine highway and rough trail, think about ride height
> control. Dunno of any really small SUV with it, is available on
> such as the Land Rover LR3, the Volkswagen Touareg, Porsche Cayenne,
> etc. Can be lowered to help with highway handling and raised to
> keep the bits off the rocks.
That sounds like a great idea. But, I don't know of any small vehicles
with it. But, I've seen it added on, I think?
>> I'm a realtor, so I sometimes need a 4-door, so I've ruled out the
>> Jeep Wrangler. I've also ruled out the Subaru Forrester and Outback
>> due to what looks to be poor ground clearance. I'd also like to stay
>> under 25k.
>>
>> So far, my list of candidates is
>> Toyota rav-4 and 4-runner
>
> Go 4-Runner if you want a real SUV. Can hold its own with even models
> like a Jeep or Land Rover.
I've looked at it. It's a bit big, which is why it's a fallback choice
at the moment.
> The RAV-4 is a cute ute.
Definitely off my list; AWD.
>> Honda Element
>> Chevy tracker
>> Suzuki Vitara
>
> All easy flipper cute utes.
All have been excluded, for one reason or another.
>> Any vehicles I should add to this list?
>
> The Jeep Liberty perhaps, but most jeepers would probably recommend
> a used Cherokee, or for a bit nicer interior, a used Grand Cherokee.
> Both will go places that will dig a grave for any cute ute.
How does the Liberty stack up against the Cherokee? The Cherokee and
grand Cherokee are too large so I haven't looked at them.
I'm seriously thinking of looking at some non-US models, such as the
Mitsubishi Shogun Pinin, because many of them are smaller than their
US counterparts. But, what are their real 4X4 capabilities?
>> My only absolute requirements are 4 wheel drive and decent rough-road
>> capability, plus non-disasterous rollover ratings.
>
> The best rollover prevention is a big sign on the dashboard with a
> picture of a Porsche and a picture of your SUV...so you can tell
> the difference.
ROFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> You honestly may not need an offroad vehicle.
I've decided I do. Some of the trails I go on are really severe, and
so are conditions (incline, ice, snow, sand, mud).
> If you do, you'll
> want something with the ground clearance of something like a working
> pickup truck.
I tossed out the Subaru outback and forester for that reason
(otherwise, I loved them).
> Of your list, only the 4-Runner is gonna handle
> rougher trails. A cheaper model of the VW may also be in your
> price range. Used 4-Runners tend to be rather pricey.
I'm split on the new/used issue. If I go new, I can order exactly what
I want, and have fewer concerns over buying something with major
problems. But going used saves $$$, plus I'd feel more at ease taking
it into the fun places and not worrying about getting it scratched or
dented. I think if I found what I wanted used, I'd be happier, but
that's not easy. There are all of two 4X4's in the newspaper this
weekend, so local selection is slim. I'd have to shop in Phoenix, 150
miles away, to have a good used selection. That's doable, but it means
finding a mechanic I trust down there to check the vehicle out.
