Brakes wont bleed

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PDannyD

Guest
Any ideas why the brakes on a SeriesII Land Rover wont bleed? I don't own
one (yet) but I've spent the best part of half an hour pumping a brake
pedal on a friend's Land Rover while he operated the bleed nipples, all
without any improvement in pedal travel.
There's no vacuum assistance and it's a single-circuit system.

Tried Gunson's Eezibleed, tried doing it by the book, tried threatening it
with being scrapped - nothing works.
The procedure we use (starting from the wheel furthest away from the master
cylinder) is I pump the pedal until it goes firm, he cracks off the bleed
nipple about 1/4 turn then closes it again. I lift the pedal and pump it a
few times to build up pressure again.

All we end up with is a pedal that goes almost to the floor and needs
pumping to get a firm pedal. Every time I apply braking pressure while he
cracks off the bleed nipple we get large amounts of air emerging.

There are no visible fluid leaks. The slave cylinders all move freely and
look in good condition, the master cylinder is new.

Any ideas before he throws a wobbler and sells it?

--
FZS600 - Silver/Black
GS125 - Black/Rust
Ford 100E Prefect - Black, naturally
Whisky - Aberlour Cask Strength
 
PDannyD wrote:

> Any ideas before he throws a wobbler and sells it?
>

Check the brakes are properly adjusted first.


--
EMB
 
EMB wrote:

> PDannyD wrote:
>
>> Any ideas before he throws a wobbler and sells it?
>>
>
> Check the brakes are properly adjusted first.

<resends to newsgroup rather than accidentally sending via email.
Using a different newsgroup reader and all the buttons are in the wrong
place>

Forgot to add - yes, the brakes were properly adjusted.

Even tried adjusting them so the shoes were locked against the drums, still
no joy.

--
FZS600 - Silver/Black
GS125 - Black/Rust
Ford 100E Prefect - Black, naturally
Whisky - Aberlour Cask Strength
 
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:14:41 +0000, PDannyD
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Any ideas why the brakes on a SeriesII Land Rover wont bleed? I don't own
>one (yet) but I've spent the best part of half an hour pumping a brake
>pedal on a friend's Land Rover while he operated the bleed nipples, all
>without any improvement in pedal travel.
>There's no vacuum assistance and it's a single-circuit system.
>
>Tried Gunson's Eezibleed, tried doing it by the book, tried threatening it
>with being scrapped - nothing works.
>The procedure we use (starting from the wheel furthest away from the master
>cylinder) is I pump the pedal until it goes firm, he cracks off the bleed
>nipple about 1/4 turn then closes it again. I lift the pedal and pump it a
>few times to build up pressure again.
>
>All we end up with is a pedal that goes almost to the floor and needs
>pumping to get a firm pedal. Every time I apply braking pressure while he
>cracks off the bleed nipple we get large amounts of air emerging.
>
>There are no visible fluid leaks. The slave cylinders all move freely and
>look in good condition, the master cylinder is new.

Fluid might not be leaking out, but air could be getting in. Thats
what ive always reckoned with mine anyhow!
Its also possible for slave cylinders to suck in air, or not work
properly, even new ones (especially if theyre the cheap ones IME)

a few things-

Double check that you have all the unions nice and tight.

Have you adjusted the pedal height/travel (the 2 nuts on the master
cyl shaft at the top of the pedal box) - Is it pushing the cylinder
all the way in when the pedal is pressed? The new master cylinder may
differ slightly from the old one.

Are the shoe adjusters on the back of the drums adjusted properly? You
could have too much travel on the slave cylinders which is why you
brakes are too far down the pedal.
I always adjust them by tightening them until you cant spin the wheel,
and then cracking them off a notch or 2. Do this before you try
bleeding again.

One of my mates always used to recommend, if you were having trouble
bleeding the brakes to try adjusting them all up so that nothing
should move and then try bleeding it. If you had any pedal slop left
then you have a leak.

You could also try clamping off the flexy pipes in different
combinations to try and work out where you problem may lie. Ive traced
the fault to one corner doing this.

good luck
 
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:14:41 +0000, PDannyD
<[email protected]> wrote:

>The procedure we use (starting from the wheel furthest away from the master
>cylinder) is I pump the pedal until it goes firm, he cracks off the bleed
>nipple about 1/4 turn then closes it again. I lift the pedal and pump it a
>few times to build up pressure again.

I see adjusting the brakes has been suggested.

Is the Eezibleed one that pressurises the reservoir or the type that
sucks via the bleed nipple?

I think in pumping the brake pedal you could be moving the air around
the system.

When you say you lift the pedal do you mean you let it fly back?

I can only think the depression is causing air to bleed past the wheel
cylinder seal, my mate had this on a 101 using pattern seals, cured by
using the proper part. He was using the vacuum bleeder run off a
compressor, apart from this problem with duff seals it was the best
way to get around problems with the load valve on the 101.

AJH
>
>All we end up with is a pedal that goes almost to the floor and needs
>pumping to get a firm pedal. Every time I apply braking pressure while he
>cracks off the bleed nipple we get large amounts of air emerging.
>
>There are no visible fluid leaks. The slave cylinders all move freely and
>look in good condition, the master cylinder is new.
>
>Any ideas before he throws a wobbler and sells it?

 
On or around Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:47:31 +0000, [email protected]
enlightened us thusly:

>I can only think the depression is causing air to bleed past the wheel
>cylinder seal, my mate had this on a 101 using pattern seals, cured by
>using the proper part. He was using the vacuum bleeder run off a
>compressor, apart from this problem with duff seals it was the best
>way to get around problems with the load valve on the 101.

FWIW, I've gone off replacing seals in slave cylinders unless the cylinders
aren't available. they never seem to be reliable - I reckon the cylinder
wears as well, and by the time the seal's shot, the cylinder is oversize and
maybe not round, so the new seals don't fit right or don't last as long.

 
On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 20:14:41 +0000, PDannyD
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Any ideas why the brakes on a SeriesII Land Rover wont bleed? I don't own
>one (yet) but I've spent the best part of half an hour pumping a brake
>pedal on a friend's Land Rover while he operated the bleed nipples, all
>without any improvement in pedal travel.
>There's no vacuum assistance and it's a single-circuit system.
>
>Tried Gunson's Eezibleed, tried doing it by the book, tried threatening it
>with being scrapped - nothing works.
>The procedure we use (starting from the wheel furthest away from the master
>cylinder) is I pump the pedal until it goes firm, he cracks off the bleed
>nipple about 1/4 turn then closes it again. I lift the pedal and pump it a
>few times to build up pressure again.
>
>All we end up with is a pedal that goes almost to the floor and needs
>pumping to get a firm pedal. Every time I apply braking pressure while he
>cracks off the bleed nipple we get large amounts of air emerging.
>

You shouldn't have to pump the pedal and apply braking pressure before
any fluid will be expelled from the wheel. It should be open nipple,
depress to floor, close nipple, return pedal. Alternativly you can use
an one-man bleeding kit, which has a one-way valve, removes the need
to keep opening and closing the nipple. Don't bother with those ones
that are a lenth of rubber tubing with a slit in them, they're crap

Check the adjustment to make sure the shoes are rubbing against the
drum, not wound in. Easy mistake to make.

If no joy, bleed, clamp all 3 hoses down with hose clamps and see if
the pedal still required pumping. If the pedal still requires pumping
to bring up pressure, then the master cylinder is at fault.

If the pedal goes hard, then you shouild suspect the flexible brake
hoses. If they perish from the inside, they collapse and stop the
fluid flowing properly. This makes it impossible to bleed the system.

From what you say about air constantly coming in, I think you will
find the fault is with the Master Cylinder. I had very similar
conditions to what you describe just recently, changing the M/C cured
the problem.

Alex
 

"PDannyD" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Any ideas why the brakes on a SeriesII Land Rover wont bleed? I don't own
> one (yet) but I've spent the best part of half an hour pumping a brake
> pedal on a friend's Land Rover while he operated the bleed nipples, all
> without any improvement in pedal travel.
> There's no vacuum assistance and it's a single-circuit system.
>
> Tried Gunson's Eezibleed, tried doing it by the book, tried threatening it
> with being scrapped - nothing works.
> The procedure we use (starting from the wheel furthest away from the
master
> cylinder) is I pump the pedal until it goes firm, he cracks off the bleed
> nipple about 1/4 turn then closes it again. I lift the pedal and pump it a
> few times to build up pressure again.
>
> All we end up with is a pedal that goes almost to the floor and needs
> pumping to get a firm pedal. Every time I apply braking pressure while he
> cracks off the bleed nipple we get large amounts of air emerging.
>
> There are no visible fluid leaks. The slave cylinders all move freely and
> look in good condition, the master cylinder is new.

According to the S2 manual the technique depends on which of the two
different master cylinders you have. Do you know if it is CV, or CB type.
CV type should look exactly the same as the clutch master cyl. The CB is
bigger, and according to the manual its shape means air gets trapped in the
CB's bulbous back end. It says fluid should be forced in at 14PSI. and the
outlet pipe slackened to allow air to escape. It then says "In extreme
cases......it may be helpful if the front of the vehicle is raised so that
the master cylinder is horizontal whilst bleeding the brakes"
I've tried all that on my 1959 S2 and the pedal is still a bit spongy. I
think I might try a new master cylinder!

Cheers
John PS. have you made sure there is a bit of
free play on the M/Cyl push rod?


 
"Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Fluid might not be leaking out, but air could be getting in. Thats
> what ive always reckoned with mine anyhow!
> Its also possible for slave cylinders to suck in air, or not work
> properly, even new ones (especially if theyre the cheap ones IME)

Ditto this... and some seals only leak inward sucking air and refuse to leak
fluid out,,, they are my all time favourites....NOT!

Lee D


 
Agree with John, could very well be an air lock in the master cylinder. Try
repeating the exercise with the vehicle parked facing up the steepest hill you
can find.

Nick
 
"PDannyD" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Any ideas why the brakes on a SeriesII Land Rover wont bleed? I don't own
> one (yet) but I've spent the best part of half an hour pumping a brake
> pedal on a friend's Land Rover while he operated the bleed nipples, all
> without any improvement in pedal travel.
> There's no vacuum assistance and it's a single-circuit system.
>
> Tried Gunson's Eezibleed, tried doing it by the book, tried threatening it
> with being scrapped - nothing works.
> The procedure we use (starting from the wheel furthest away from the master
> cylinder) is I pump the pedal until it goes firm, he cracks off the bleed
> nipple about 1/4 turn then closes it again. I lift the pedal and pump it a
> few times to build up pressure again.
>
> All we end up with is a pedal that goes almost to the floor and needs
> pumping to get a firm pedal. Every time I apply braking pressure while he
> cracks off the bleed nipple we get large amounts of air emerging.
>
> There are no visible fluid leaks. The slave cylinders all move freely and
> look in good condition, the master cylinder is new.
>
> Any ideas before he throws a wobbler and sells it?
>
> --
>

get an old windscreen washer pump and two bits
of pipe connect the outlet from the pump to the bleed
nipple and dangle the other pipe into the bottle of
brake fluid open bleed nipple and switch on pump
this will force the air back up into the master cylinder
and out into the reservoir
empty the reservoir and repeat on the other brakes
or you could use an oil can and pump it up manually
but you end up with a thumb like Schwarzenegger's
leg

Andy
--
SWB Series 2a ( dressed as a 3) "Bruce"
It's big, it's mean it's really, really green


 
In message <[email protected]>
PDannyD <[email protected]> wrote:

> EMB wrote:
>
> > PDannyD wrote:
> >
> >> Any ideas before he throws a wobbler and sells it?
> >>
> >
> > Check the brakes are properly adjusted first.
>
> <resends to newsgroup rather than accidentally sending via email.
> Using a different newsgroup reader and all the buttons are in the wrong
> place>
>
> Forgot to add - yes, the brakes were properly adjusted.
>
> Even tried adjusting them so the shoes were locked against the drums, still
> no joy.
>

There are many ways suggested for bleeding Series brakes,
but to add my 2p's worth here's a method that always works
and will leave you with brakes that put you through the
windscreen............ contrary to popular belief Series
brakes should be very good.

Put the vehicle on 4 axle stands.
Take off the wheels and drums.
Wire, or clamp, the brake shoes "in" (not to far!)
Now bleed the brakes as per manual, taking care not
to press to hard and snap the wires or clamps,
prefereably using and Esi-Bleed or similar.
Put the drums back on and adjust the brakes.
Put the wheels back on and check the brake adjustment.

This works because, with the wheel cylinders in the
"in" position, very little air gets trapped in the
ends of the cylinders.

It might seem a bit of a faff, but its quicker than
doing the job over and over again.

Richard


--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Helping keep Land Rovers on and off the road to annoy the Lib Dems
 
beamendsltd wrote:
> contrary to popular belief Series brakes should be very good.

Both mine have *awesome* brakes with standard 10" drums. The biggest
secret I found was getting decent linings - much of the lining material
they use nowdays is useless.


--
EMB
 

"PDannyD" <[email protected]> wrote in
message news:[email protected]...
> Any ideas why the brakes on a SeriesII Land Rover wont bleed? I don't own
> one (yet) but I've spent the best part of half an hour pumping a brake
> pedal on a friend's Land Rover while he operated the bleed nipples, all
> without any improvement in pedal travel.
> There's no vacuum assistance and it's a single-circuit system.
>
> Tried Gunson's Eezibleed, tried doing it by the book, tried threatening it
> with being scrapped - nothing works.
> The procedure we use (starting from the wheel furthest away from the
master
> cylinder) is I pump the pedal until it goes firm, he cracks off the bleed
> nipple about 1/4 turn then closes it again. I lift the pedal and pump it a
> few times to build up pressure again.
>
> All we end up with is a pedal that goes almost to the floor and needs
> pumping to get a firm pedal. Every time I apply braking pressure while he
> cracks off the bleed nipple we get large amounts of air emerging.
>
> There are no visible fluid leaks. The slave cylinders all move freely and
> look in good condition, the master cylinder is new.
>
> Any ideas before he throws a wobbler and sells it?



>
> --
>Surely we had all this the other week with mr Nice?
You arent supposed to "pump the pedal a few times to build up pressure" that
aerates the fluid ...... just open the bleed nipple and depress the pedal ,
tighten and slowly return to rest and repeat....... Or use a Gunsons
easibleeder........ with no pumping .
steve the grease


 
> get an old windscreen washer pump and two bits
> of pipe connect the outlet from the pump to the bleed
> nipple and dangle the other pipe into the bottle of
> brake fluid open bleed nipple and switch on pump
> this will force the air back up into the master cylinder
> and out into the reservoir
> empty the reservoir and repeat on the other brakes
> or you could use an oil can and pump it up manually
> but you end up with a thumb like Schwarzenegger's
> leg
>

Brilliant idea. My bike's hydraulic clutch was a complete bitch to properly
and ended up going the oil can route - never thought of doing it that way -
after all you can never have too many power tools!


 
R L Driver wrote:

> You arent supposed to "pump the pedal a few times to build up pressure" that
> aerates the fluid ...... just open the bleed nipple and depress the pedal ,
> tighten and slowly return to rest and repeat....... Or use a Gunsons
> easibleeder........ with no pumping .

I'll second that - it took me years to break my boss of that habit, and
even he's a believer now.

Incidentally, does an RL driver pilot some sort of a Bedford? :)


--
EMB
 

"EMB" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> R L Driver wrote:
>
> > You arent supposed to "pump the pedal a few times to build up pressure"
that
> > aerates the fluid ...... just open the bleed nipple and depress the
pedal ,
> > tighten and slowly return to rest and repeat....... Or use a Gunsons
> > easibleeder........ with no pumping .
>
> I'll second that - it took me years to break my boss of that habit, and
> even he's a believer now.
>
> Incidentally, does an RL driver pilot some sort of a Bedford? :)
>
>
Its a possibility.................see RSOLES ( R series Owners Lovers and
Enthusiasts Society )on Yahoo groups
steve the grease
> EMB


 
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