Disco 1 Bad cam timing cause no start?

TLDR: New engine guts. Don't recall setting the timing correctly. Would that be enough to cause a no start?

Looking for some advice on a no start...

Just rebuilt my North American D1 4.0 (175k, ran fine aside from leaking like a sieve). Crower cam, oil pump gears, timing chain, head work, porting, mustang injectors, and all new accessories hanging off the front. And getting no start. Plugs are sparking. Fuel is flowing. Injectors are spraying. Everything seems to be tidied up as it should be.

Starter motor goes and goes. On the initial crank, I'll get a good "bang!" like the engine wants to fire, and then nothing but a touch of smoke.

The ONLY thing that comes to mind: I don't recall lining up the cam and crankshafts at 6 and 12 o'clock. I recall spinning the crank and watching the cam move accordingly, but I don't actually remember setting the timing positions.

So my question: is bad timing (or horrible timing) enough to cause the engine not to fire? If that's the case, I'm comfortable resigning myself to the tear down process once more, just looking for a bit of advice before doing so.

cheers

P.S. - please be gentle. this is my first experience in anything engine-related.
P.P.S. - long time lurker, first time poster. you folks are boss.

Yes, are your push rods bent?

Best strip it back, set the cam properly.

Blarg! Drats!!

Push rods are straight and clean (clean after soaking in Chem-Dip for a day or two, that is...). Even managed to get them each back into their original slots to (hopefully) reduce ticking and extraneous commotion.

Thanks for the feedback!

dieseldog69 said:

Yes, are your push rods bent?

Best strip it back, set the cam properly.

Click to expand...

It's a 4 litre V8, so the man says.

DiscoTime said:

TLDR: New engine guts. Don't recall setting the timing correctly. Would that be enough to cause a no start?

Looking for some advice on a no start...

Just rebuilt my North American D1 4.0 (175k, ran fine aside from leaking like a sieve). Crower cam, oil pump gears, timing chain, head work, porting, mustang injectors, and all new accessories hanging off the front. And getting no start. Plugs are sparking. Fuel is flowing. Injectors are spraying. Everything seems to be tidied up as it should be.

Starter motor goes and goes. On the initial crank, I'll get a good "bang!" like the engine wants to fire, and then nothing but a touch of smoke.

The ONLY thing that comes to mind: I don't recall lining up the cam and crankshafts at 6 and 12 o'clock. I recall spinning the crank and watching the cam move accordingly, but I don't actually remember setting the timing positions.

So my question: is bad timing (or horrible timing) enough to cause the engine not to fire? If that's the case, I'm comfortable resigning myself to the tear down process once more, just looking for a bit of advice before doing so.

cheers

P.S. - please be gentle. this is my first experience in anything engine-related.
P.P.S. - long time lurker, first time poster. you folks are boss.

Click to expand...

Welcome to "The Zone"
You may be able to do a quick check on the valve timing, remove plug number 1, turn the engine over by hand until the TDC mark on the crank is aligned with the check mark on the timing case, (confirm TDC with small rod down the through plug hole #1 to piston crown) ,remove cover for valve cylinder bank #1, (RH I think), check rocker arms, if it is not both valves closed, turn crankshaft another full rotation to line up the TDC marks again, if neither of the TDC positions produce both valves fully closed on cylinder#1 then valve timing is out.
It may be possible to re do the timing just by removal of the timing chest cover, I remember having to do this type of thing but about 30 years ago, so not clear in my mind.

Gazbo said:

It's a 4 litre V8, so the man says.

Click to expand...

Still got pushy rods.

Never knew whether the valves were interference with the pistons just assumed so?

I would still pull it apart and set the engine up from scratch for peace of mind.

dieseldog69 said:

Still got pushy rods.

Never knew whether the valves were interference with the pistons just assumed so?

I would still pull it apart and set the engine up from scratch for peace of mind.

Click to expand...

Sorry, I made an assumption that you made a Tdi assumption, V8's have a few problems but so far as I know bending push rods is not common.
I think @DiscoTime may have a timing problem, be it valve, spark, injection, a few simple and logical checks should fix it.
Not sure about aftermarket cams and Moostang injectors though, great way to reduce a bank balance me thinks.

Re this, if you think you may have a spark timing problem, remove the dizzy cap and plug to no 1 cylinder, put your thumb over the spark plug hole and turn the engine, with a spanner. If you feel the pressure under your thumb and the rotor arm is nowhere near the position in the cap for that cylinder's spark-plug lead, then your ignition timing is way out. May even have spark plug leads mixed up. I have seen this happen more than once, most common is 180 degrees out. The "thumb over the hole" method may also work for valve timing, in fact should do without you having to take rocker cover off. Of course you could use a cylinder pressure gauge!
Old school, yeah, I know!

Stanleysteamer said:

Re this, if you think you may have a spark timing problem, remove the dizzy cap and plug to no 1 cylinder, put your thumb over the spark plug hole and turn the engine, with a spanner. If you feel the pressure under your thumb and the rotor arm is nowhere near the position in the cap for that cylinder's spark-plug lead, then your ignition timing is way out. May even have spark plug leads mixed up. I have seen this happen more than once, most common is 180 degrees out. The "thumb over the hole" method may also work for valve timing, in fact should do without you having to take rocker cover off. Of course you could use a cylinder pressure gauge!
Old school, yeah, I know!

Click to expand...

4.0 was dizzyless ignition.

Ho, Ho, Ho, you must be laughing into your socks!!!!!
O've got a 3.9 disco 1, I'd better have a closer look under the bonnet sometime!

Stanleysteamer said:

Ho, Ho, Ho, you must be laughing into your socks!!!!!
O've got a 3.9 disco 1, I'd better have a closer look under the bonnet sometime!

Click to expand...

could still work for the cam timing maybe, with the marks on the crank pulley and the cam pulley, although if you can see those you've probably already got the rocker cover off. dunno really.

In my defence, I really just gave a generic answer for the older type of vehicle. I bought my D1 v8 two years back when my wife was in hospital and spent more time trying to get the LPG system certified than anything else. I haven't even got a Haynes manual for it, so I thought it would be more like the old 3.5 Rover V8 than it actualy is. So I haven't done much to it and it has sat on my drive awaiting my attention ever since. Such is the way with projects!
I'll keep my trap shut in future!

Looked deeper into it, and realised the "4.0 litre",which still has a displacement of 3.9 l, and which so many people call the 4 litre, presumably cos it nearly is 4 litres, if it is a late model, has the Gems system, and mine, being a 3.9 will have a distributor. Thought I saw one! Cannot check as I am 550 miles away in France.
Perhaps this has something to do with being a US version. And this is presumably what you are talking about.
Anyway, the OP will know if it has a dizzy or not, so I stand corrected, presumably!

Stanleysteamer said:

In my defence, I really just gave a generic answer for the older type of vehicle. I bought my D1 v8 two years back when my wife was in hospital and spent more time trying to get the LPG system certified than anything else. I haven't even got a Haynes manual for it, so I thought it would be more like the old 3.5 Rover V8 than it actualy is. So I haven't done much to it and it has sat on my drive awaiting my attention ever since. Such is the way with projects!
I'll keep my trap shut in future!

Click to expand...

Yeh! What is it about "projects" and all the languishing about on a driveway or up the backyard.
My "boss lady" got sick of that crud in the first 25 years of wedded bliss and made some rules about "stuff" coming into our property, I'm so thankful, b'cause now in my 70th year I have no "projects" to agonise over, luckily I have a mate with no wife, (the first 3 left long ago), to boss him about, so my "project" efforts are spent at his place working on some of his 20 or so "LandRover projects".

Gazbo said:

Yeh! What is it about "projects" and all the languishing about on a driveway or up the backyard.
My "boss lady" got sick of that crud in the first 25 years of wedded bliss and made some rules about "stuff" coming into our property, I'm so thankful, b'cause now in my 70th year I have no "projects" to agonise over, luckily I have a mate with no wife, (the first 3 left long ago), to boss him about, so my "project" efforts are spent at his place working on some of his 20 or so "LandRover projects".

Click to expand...

This is to say nothing of our first LR love, the Anniversary Disco we bought to get ourselves and all the stuff over the France to fit out our new house. It did sterling service transporting kitchen 2 bathrooms, all the furniture except for one bed, pergola, decking, you name it. Then due to a health issue we had to "temporarily" get an Auto (D2) which we are still using 5 years on! But we both love the Anni so it will be fixed. Being only retired 4 1/2 years I have no time for any of my projects, wifey's and the house's have to come first. But she doesn't moan bless her, it is only one of the neighbours who thinks having 3 Discos is mad, so ferk her!

dieseldog69 said:

Still got pushy rods.

Never knew whether the valves were interference with the pistons just assumed so?

I would still pull it apart and set the engine up from scratch for peace of mind.

Click to expand...

Indeed! such is the plan this weekend -err soon enough!

Gazbo said:

Sorry, I made an assumption that you made a Tdi assumption, V8's have a few problems but so far as I know bending push rods is not common.
I think @DiscoTime may have a timing problem, be it valve, spark, injection, a few simple and logical checks should fix it.
Not sure about aftermarket cams and Moostang injectors though, great way to reduce a bank balance me thinks.

Click to expand...

Stang injectors have a preferred spray pattern that should yield more MPG and throttle response - plus, we've got some many many many Fords floating about (in the State), aftermarket bits like injectors are a quarter the price of a LR-sanctioned injectioneers. Cam and whatever else to push the meager 187hp anywhere north. A long weekend of backcountry travel can easily cover 20,000 ft of elevation change - hell, I'll do over 10,000 ft get to and from a mountain bike ride after work. (UTAH!) Add up the extraneous gear on this truck (enough to spend a good week off-grid) and she's huffin and puffin up every incline.

Stanleysteamer said:

Looked deeper into it, and realised the "4.0 litre",which still has a displacement of 3.9 l, and which so many people call the 4 litre, presumably cos it nearly is 4 litres, if it is a late model, has the Gems system, and mine, being a 3.9 will have a distributor. Thought I saw one! Cannot check as I am 550 miles away in France.
Perhaps this has something to do with being a US version. And this is presumably what you are talking about.
Anyway, the OP will know if it has a dizzy or not, so I stand corrected, presumably!

Click to expand...

Dizziless Gems! RAVE has distinct sections for the 3.9 and 4.0, even if ignition is the primary difference. Not sure if there's anything else though.


Thank you, gents! Will report back...

...reporting back!

Much, much improvement! Baseline measurement for such an upbeat report: Fired on first crank. Cough, spittle, hack, and roar. Stead, lumpy (LUMPY) roar with the new cam and an old old muffler.

Roaring decibels increased by a slight gap between the cylinder head exhaust ports and the exhaust manifold. Just one port effected. The machinist appears to have gotten a bit too aggressive on the exhaust porting... Need to find a way to shim it up with an aftermarket shim or something or other. Hopefully won't resort to a JB Weld to plug the gap every 1,000km...

Did you put old tappets on a new cam?

By golly, surely not! Fresh lifters, spec'd to the Crower cam

DiscoTime said:

By golly, surely not! Fresh lifters, spec'd to the Crower cam

Click to expand...

You'll have to break it in.

Don't keep it sat at idle.

you'll destroy the cam.


Why wasn't it timed ?

Henry_b said:

You'll have to break it in.

Don't keep it sat at idle.

you'll destroy the cam.


Why wasn't it timed?

Click to expand...

'Cause I didn't bloody time it!
First time on the inside of an engine. Just missed a step.

Crower's spec is a high idle (like 1500rpm; can't remember at the moment) for the first 30 minutes.