Series 3 And now the front axle....

Hi,

Thanks for all the help you all gave me earlier in the week, when I was working on the rear axle of my 1981 88 S3 (which seems to have a 2/2A rear axle). I'm now moving on to the front axle.

I'm a bit puzzled - the books and parts list seems to show the same pointy hub cap over a castle nut on the front, as I had on the rear. But my front hubs don't have that (neither the cap nor the castle nut). They aren't free-wheeling hubs, but they have a plate that bolts on to the same six bolts that hold the driving member to the hub.

The closest thing I can find is https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rem-Land...093484?hash=item5d8ab542ec:g:sT0AAOSwiehcocO~ ...but I really don't want to spend £120 on these when all I need is the gasket, o-ring (which is a lot larger than the one on the pointy hub cap) and a thin felt/rubber seal (which is missing from that kit, anyway). Looks like the driving member has 24 splines, whereas the diff end of the half shaft has the regular 10.

So is my front axle from a lightweight Landy? Anyone know where I might be able to get new seals from? I've checked Paddock/Bearmach/ebay and not found anything relevant...

I'm also intending to get a swivel rebuild kit, but I see 'early' and 'late' variants. I'm assuming I need 'early' (since everything about my Landy seems to actually be older then it should be), unless someone happens to know what the cut-off date would actually be?

Cheers,
Adam

I think the early and late version of the rebuild kit refers to whether the steering arm is at the top or bottom of the swivel. As far as I know the early one is basically for series 1's, but I could be wrong cos I don't know the changeover year......try googling it.

Post a picture of what you have, it will make more sense then.

Rodeo Joe said:

I think the early and late version of the rebuild kit refers to whether the steering arm is at the top or bottom of the swivel. As far as I know the early one is basically for series 1's, but I could be wrong cos I don't know the changeover year......try googling it.

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Yeah, I think you're right. Google didn't throw up much directly, but examining the photo of the kits on Paddock's web site suggests the difference is with the type of king pin (being part of the top plate or a separate stepped cylindrical item). And I assume that relates to how the steering arm attaches. I knew my steering arms were at the bottom, but having dismantled a swivel housing today, I can also see the king pin is part of the top plate, so I think I need the 'Later' kit. Thanks for your help on this.

rob1miles said:

Post a picture of what you have, it will make more sense then.

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Yeah, good point. Although it doesn't really show the detail clearly. An exploded diagram would be more useful, but the S3 parts catalogue just doesn't seem to show anything like it. I'll try and take more photos tomorrow if they will be useful, now that I've fully dismantled it.

Let me see if I can get the photos added here correctly...



...shows the hub cap being removed, having removed the 6 drive flange bolts (but the driving member still in place), and...



...shows the hub cap completely removed, and the rubber surface of the seal peeling away from the drive shaft. This seems to have a felt backing similar to the oil seal in my rear axle, but is a lot thinner - maybe 3mm at most. The drive shaft (through the stub axle) has 24 splines at this end, and is immediately behind this seal.

There is no castle nut on the drive shaft - the driving member/flange is just held onto the drive shaft by the hub cap and drive flange bolts.

What appears in the photo to be a thrust washer just outside the seal/drive shaft, is actually the body of the drive member. The other item you can see here on the outer corner of the drive member, is an o-ring, a lot larger cross-section than the o-rings that I believe were used as seals for more recent axles.

Does this make more sense, now? And does it look familiar to anyone? None of the books I have, show any hub arrangements quite like this.

I want to replace the o-ring, and you can see that I definitely need to replace the rubber/felt seal, too!

Thanks,
Adam

Never seen anything like it but then I, ve never had a lightweight.
Try posting pics in the military section somebody there is bound to know.

Will do. Thanks for the suggestion.

Good to know I'm not being stupid and missing something obvious!

Very different to mine too. Not sure what to make of it, doesn't match anything in my S2A parts book.

I've made some progress on this, in case anyone is interested...

Believing it is a lightweight hub, I found a couple of parts catalogues here: https://www.militarylightweight.co.uk/reference/manuals-catalogues/lightweight/parts-catalogues/ .

The S3/1982 version only showed the standard hubs, but the 1970 version showed something similar to what I have, although the bolt-on hub cap and one of the seals are missing from the diagram. But I did get a part number for the O-ring, and have therefore found some on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Land-Rov...mber-Oring-561981-Military-Spec-/202456710479.

I'm still missing the the felt seal, however, and the parts catalogue doesn't seem to list this at all. So I'm going to have a go at making my own. A bit of 3mm felt, 0.5mm nitrile, some oil-resistant adhesive and a dab of Hylomar - what could possibly go wrong?! Since the O-ring is probably the main thing stopping the oil leaking out, I'm assuming the felt seal is probably primarily there to restrict driveshaft play and damage to the bolt-on hub cap...?

I do wonder if it would have been easier to just buy new drive shaft ends and conventional drive members, and convert it back to something more maintainable...

Cheers,
Adam.

The seal for the hub cap body is probably the same as for the usual drive member as it fits the same bolt holes.

You mean the outer (larger) gasket? Yeah, although the one that came off was just round rather than having the 6 'notches' that standard drive member gasket has (and I also have on the back of the drive member). I could certainly just use one of those, although it would leave gaps around the outer edge. I've not been worrying about that one too much, as it's a fairly standard size, as you say.

It's the other two, in particular the centre felt/rubber seal (the one that was falling apart in my photo) that I was concerned about.

Well, I got new O-rings, used a normal drive member gasket on the hub cap, and having opened up the hub on the other side, I determined that the felt seal I had, was just one of the felt seals for a normal hub, but being used in a different way. It looks like the hub cap is supposed to have a stud in the cap that screws into the end of the drive shaft - I guess to take up the play in the drive shaft. But the studs have sheared off on mine (both sides), so I assume the felt pad is just being used to take up the drive shaft play in a different way.

Anyway, the RH swivel housing and hub have been cleaned and rebuilt, but when putting the hub back on, the hub cap didn't push on quite far enough to mate with the flange on the hub!

Turns out, the hub nut lock washers I have from a standard wheel seal kit bought on ebay, are a couple of mm larger diameter than the ones that came off...and it was fouling on the flange on the inside of the drive member.

The new lock washers I got were black, whereas the old ones are silver in colour.

So...is the part 217353 actually available in (at least) 2 different sizes? Has anyone found this before? And any idea what brand I need to be sure I get the smaller sized (silver) washers?

Had exaclty the same problem last week on my std rear axle. Put new lock washer on and wheel was binding, wasted ages trying to work it out then like you, found washer was 1/8" too big. Fitted if it wasn't bent over but as soon as it was it jammed. The ones i bought said "Defender and Series" and I'm now thinking no, Series is smaller, but without trying some other suppliers i can't be sure. A right pain.

That's interesting. So it's not just due to my quirky front hubs, then.

And it might explain why, having carefully adjusted the hub nut to get the required 0.05-0.10mm play, when I bolted in the driveshaft and drive member on the rear axle, it suddenly seemed a lot tighter and resistant to turning. I suspect I may have the same problem there (as all my new lock washers were from the same batch), and just not noticed it.

For reference, the 'originals' were 65mm diameter, while the replacements I received are 68.7mm.

Just waiting for some hopefully smaller new washers to arrive, and I'll take the rear drive shafts out again and check/replace them, and see if that helps.

rob1miles said:

Had exaclty the same problem last week on my std rear axle. Put new lock washer on and wheel was binding, wasted ages trying to work it out then like you, found washer was 1/8" too big. Fitted if it wasn't bent over but as soon as it was it jammed. The ones i bought said "Defender and Series" and I'm now thinking no, Series is smaller, but without trying some other suppliers i can't be sure. A right pain.

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I've never heard of that problem.....now I'll have to have a look at mine.

If anyone finds they are having this same problem, these washers arrived this morning and are the smaller size, 65mm in diameter. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/220910892672

Perfect!

Thanks, they do look noticably smaller OD. Just ordered a set.

I came across this on ebay, it might answer your original question.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/193198725270?ViewItem=&item=193198725270

It looks like you've got the cap from FWH instead of hubcaps....might be a better way to go as less likely to leak.

Are they the automatic version as no means of selecting on or off?
Have heard of them but never seen any.

Blackburn said:

Are they the automatic version as no means of selecting on or off?

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Curious. How would an automatic engagement be triggered? Ratchet, perhaps...?

I don't think those are my caps, though. From the shadow, I'm guessing those caps stick out maybe 20mm in the centre...? Mine protrude only about 5mm. There is no castle nut on the end of the drive shaft on mine, and nowhere for one to sit.

Mine are back together again, now. I'll post a photo of them soon, if anyone is interested.