Aluminium corrosion ?

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H

Hirsty's

Guest
I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will
slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )

John H

--


" ..... it is the provenence of knowledge to speak, and it is the privelage
of wisdom to listen"


 
I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the
aluminium, the door bottoms just rot.

I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys solution
to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with fibreglass is
not a bad idea.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes


"Hirsty's" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
> powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that

will
> slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )
>
> John H
>
> --
>
>
> " ..... it is the provenence of knowledge to speak, and it is the

privelage
> of wisdom to listen"
>
>



 
Larry wrote:
> I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the
> aluminium, the door bottoms just rot.
>
> I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys solution
> to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with fibreglass is
> not a bad idea.
>
>


What about a "sacrificial electrode" method ?

Steve
 
"Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys
> solution
> to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with fibreglass
> is
> not a bad idea.


Is the ride really that bad he made a plastic buttock sheild?

Ah I get it... to keep out the damp!


;-)


Lee D
--

www.lrproject.com

Workshop photos from Landrover repairs
& other such tinkerings.
Home of Percy the Jag powered Landrover



 
I teach the principal, but have'nt a clue how to apply it in practice. The
idea is to set up an electrical current so as to cause the Zinc used to
corrode first (being more reactive than steel/ iron). I have never had the
courage to use it as I am not sure if it would work and to what extent the
surrounding area of the zinc block would be affected. The real problem is
that Aluminium is a very reactive metal and is only used because it has been
tamed due to the layer of oxygen on it's surface that is resistant to
further attack. Once breached the aluminium underneath reacts very quickly.
what is needed is some method of halting the reaction and then re-sealing
the breach, but how ?


"Steve Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Larry wrote:
> > I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the
> > aluminium, the door bottoms just rot.
> >
> > I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys

solution
> > to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with

fibreglass is
> > not a bad idea.
> >
> >

>
> What about a "sacrificial electrode" method ?
>
> Steve



 
Hirsty's wrote:


>Once breached the aluminium underneath reacts very quickly.


Yes it does, but it should react with oxygen instanneously to form
aluminium oxides again - so summat is keeping the channel open. It's
road salt of course that keeps conditions sufficiently conductive that
the film is broken down electrolytically.

No, I haven't tried the electrolytic method on a vehicle, but it works
well enough on ships ( protects the propellers) and pipelines.

Like you say, its hard to see just how to implement it. I have just
enquired in sci.engr.metallurgy.

Steve
 
Steve Taylor wrote:
>
> Like you say, its hard to see just how to implement it.


http://www.ruststop.co.nz

Their products are bound to be available in the UK as they say they were
tested by a UK university.

--
EMB
change two to the number to reply
 
In article <[email protected]>, "Hirsty's"
<[email protected]> wrote:

> I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
> powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will
> slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )
>
> John H



John,

Over many years I sought such an inhibitor. _Found_ it about ten years ago
!! There's _nothing_ like it. It _works_ !! :)

Check out a product called "Penetrol" .

Best wishes,

.... frodo
 
Hirsty's wrote:

> I teach the principal, but have'nt a clue how to apply it in practice. The
> idea is to set up an electrical current so as to cause the Zinc used to
> corrode first (being more reactive than steel/ iron). I have never had the
> courage to use it as I am not sure if it would work and to what extent the
> surrounding area of the zinc block would be affected. The real problem is
> that Aluminium is a very reactive metal and is only used because it has
> been tamed due to the layer of oxygen on it's surface that is resistant to
> further attack. Once breached the aluminium underneath reacts very
> quickly. what is needed is some method of halting the reaction and then
> re-sealing the breach, but how ?
>
>
> "Steve Taylor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Larry wrote:
>> > I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the
>> > aluminium, the door bottoms just rot.
>> >
>> > I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys

> solution
>> > to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with

> fibreglass is
>> > not a bad idea.
>> >
>> >

>>
>> What about a "sacrificial electrode" method ?
>>
>> Steve


The first requirement for the sacrificial electrode method is to have the
entire structure permanently immersed in an electrolyte. (It only works on
ships and marine structures below the water line.)
As I assume you have no plans for submarine operations, this counts it out
for protecting the whole structure. As far as local protection goes, you
already have a sacrificial anode - its the aluminium skin! To prevent it
corroding sacrificially relative to the steel door frame, there are two
solutions; ensure that there is no electrolyte (e.g.water) in contact with
both the steel and the alloy, or ensure there is no electrical contact
between the two metals. As both are difficult to achieve with complete
reliability except during design and manufacture (not even then, really),
you should probably do the best you can with both. And a good start here
is the Penetrol suggested, or a similar product, which has very low surface
tension on metal surfaces, and will penetrate the nooks and crannies that
hold water, and then dries. As it is an insulator, it helps to insulate the
metals, and the film will prevent the water from coming in contact with the
metals.

Hope this helps
JD
 
Have you got a website for them as I can't find one.

Andrew

"frodo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Hirsty's"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
>> powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that

will
>> slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )
>>
>> John H

>
>
> John,
>
> Over many years I sought such an inhibitor. _Found_ it about ten years

ago
> !! There's _nothing_ like it. It _works_ !! :)
>
> Check out a product called "Penetrol" .
>
> Best wishes,
>
> ... frodo



 
On or around Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:35:15 GMT, "Hirsty's"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
>powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will
>slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )



take the door skin off the frame and re-attach it with some suitable
(electrical) insulation in the joint.

 
In article <[email protected]>, "Andrew Renshaw"
<andrew.hart.i hate [email protected]> wrote:

> Have you got a website for them as I can't find one.
>
> Andrew


> > Over many years I sought such an inhibitor. _Found_ it about ten years

> ago
> > !! There's _nothing_ like it. It _works_ !! :)
> >
> > Check out a product called "Penetrol" .



G'day Andrew,

Just had a look in 'Google"... there're a swag of 'em there. Take your pick!

Note that 'Penetrol' is added to paint to 'make it stick' ...... And this
it does admirably. I painted my old 4wd with paving paint 'enriched' with
Penetrol and I reckon you'd have trouble _sandblasting_ it off :))) ...
Even diesel spill around the filler has no effect!!!

But 'Penetrol' is _also used 'neat' on new metal surfaces as a _primer_,
especially on marine metal surfaces. Maybe it's low surface tension
enables some superficial intergranular penetration , but it will sure get
into _every_ surface of metals and then dry as an almost unremovable skin.
..... and this will act as an 'insulation' to prevent the electrolytic
destruction of the aluminium that is the subject of this thread.

It can be bought in pressure pack spray but this is an expensive way to
buy it. Here in Oz many paint stores sell it ( as the paint additive
referred to). A 4lt tin costs around Oz$55. ( I bought one only a few
weeks ago to spray in the inside of _my_ doors !!. The old stuff from a
few years ago is still there but I like to keep 'topped up'... and _no_
rust.....e.g. My 27 year old HJ45 has never been garaged and the only
signs of rust are those that ensued _before_ I 'found' Penetrol some ten
years ago or so..! My '97 Defender has _no_ metal breakdown , anywhere...
Penetrol since new!!)

..... frodo.
 
Steve Taylor <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Larry wrote:
> > I guess it is the old electrolytic reaction of the steel frame and the
> > aluminium, the door bottoms just rot.
> >
> > I was angry when I discovered the last owner of my pride and joys solution
> > to this, but now I realise that to reconstruct the bottom with fibreglass is
> > not a bad idea.
> >
> >

>
> What about a "sacrificial electrode" method ?
>
> Steve


Get a large zinc anode (available from any chandler's), attach to the
chassis with a good electrical contact, and immerse the entire vehicle
up to the waistline in salt water. Make sure the anode is submerged,
and remember to replace it every year. Works on boats.

:)

Rich
 
"Lee_D" <[email protected]> wrote

> Is the ride really that bad he made a plastic buttock sheild?
>
> Ah I get it... to keep out the damp!
>


Or in.
 
On or around Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:03:15 +1000, [email protected] (frodo)
enlightened us thusly:

> My 27 year old HJ45 has never been garaged and the only
>signs of rust are those that ensued _before_ I 'found' Penetrol some ten
>years ago or so..! My '97 Defender has _no_ metal breakdown , anywhere...
>Penetrol since new!!)


so d'you reckon it'll stop corrosion once it's well established?

 

"frodo" wrote about "Penetrol"
>
>> Have you got a website for them as I can't find one.
>>

> Just had a look in 'Google"... there're a swag of 'em there. Take your
> pick!
>


Still can't find anything in the UK though, all either US or Oz.

--
Regards
Bob
In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London


 
likewise


"Bob Hobden" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "frodo" wrote about "Penetrol"
> >
> >> Have you got a website for them as I can't find one.
> >>

> > Just had a look in 'Google"... there're a swag of 'em there. Take your
> > pick!
> >

>
> Still can't find anything in the UK though, all either US or Oz.
>
> --
> Regards
> Bob
> In Runnymede, 17 miles West of London
>
>



 
Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On or around Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:35:15 GMT, "Hirsty's"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
> >powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will
> >slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )

>
>
> take the door skin off the frame and re-attach it with some suitable
> (electrical) insulation in the joint.



Insulating it may not stop the bimetallic corrosion. Have a look at
the first paragraph in Section 4.0 of the bimetallic corrosion guide
from the boffins over at NPL:
http://www.npl.co.uk/ncs/docs/bimetallic.pdf

Corrosion control is not simple!

Pittsburgh Pete
(usually found over at sci.engr.metallurgy)
--------------------------

DISCLAIMERS

Note: It is understood that this material is intended for general
information only and should not be used in relation to any specific
application without independent examination and verification of its
applicability and suitability by professionally qualified personnel.
Those making use thereof or relying thereon assume all risk and
liability arising from such use or reliance.

We don't believe what we write, and neither should you. Information
furnished to you is for topical (external) use only. This information
may not be worth any more than either a groundhog turd, or what you
paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane
or sober when he wrote it down. Don't worry, be happy.
 
[email protected] (Pittsburgh Pete) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> > On or around Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:35:15 GMT, "Hirsty's"
> > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> >
> > >I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
> > >powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that will
> > >slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )

> >
> >
> > take the door skin off the frame and re-attach it with some suitable
> > (electrical) insulation in the joint.

>
>
> Insulating it may not stop the bimetallic corrosion. Have a look at
> the first paragraph in Section 4.0 of the bimetallic corrosion guide
> from the boffins over at NPL:
> http://www.npl.co.uk/ncs/docs/bimetallic.pdf
>
> Corrosion control is not simple!
>
> Pittsburgh Pete
> (usually found over at sci.engr.metallurgy)
> --------------------------
>
> DISCLAIMERS
>
> Note: It is understood that this material is intended for general
> information only and should not be used in relation to any specific
> application without independent examination and verification of its
> applicability and suitability by professionally qualified personnel.
> Those making use thereof or relying thereon assume all risk and
> liability arising from such use or reliance.
>
> We don't believe what we write, and neither should you. Information
> furnished to you is for topical (external) use only. This information
> may not be worth any more than either a groundhog turd, or what you
> paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane
> or sober when he wrote it down. Don't worry, be happy.



By the way, I forgot to add that Flood's Penetrol is also called Owatrol Oil.
Geedon used to distribute it in the UK, but now it's coming via Igoe.

http://www.wdiyc.org/flood.html

http://www.geedon.co.uk

http://igoe.ie/products/whenyoupaintormaintain.htm

Pittsburgh Pete
 
Rivet checker plate over the top. Doesn't cure it but hides it nicely.
Icky
"Pittsburgh Pete" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] (Pittsburgh Pete) wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
>> Austin Shackles <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:<[email protected]>...
>> > On or around Mon, 18 Oct 2004 17:35:15 GMT, "Hirsty's"
>> > <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>> >
>> > >I have a degree in Chemistry; however not a clue how to stop the white
>> > >powder forming at my door bottoms. Is there a product I can apply that
>> > >will
>> > >slow it or stop it ??? ( Sad innit !! )
>> >
>> >
>> > take the door skin off the frame and re-attach it with some suitable
>> > (electrical) insulation in the joint.

>>
>>
>> Insulating it may not stop the bimetallic corrosion. Have a look at
>> the first paragraph in Section 4.0 of the bimetallic corrosion guide
>> from the boffins over at NPL:
>> http://www.npl.co.uk/ncs/docs/bimetallic.pdf
>>
>> Corrosion control is not simple!
>>
>> Pittsburgh Pete
>> (usually found over at sci.engr.metallurgy)
>> --------------------------
>>
>> DISCLAIMERS
>>
>> Note: It is understood that this material is intended for general
>> information only and should not be used in relation to any specific
>> application without independent examination and verification of its
>> applicability and suitability by professionally qualified personnel.
>> Those making use thereof or relying thereon assume all risk and
>> liability arising from such use or reliance.
>>
>> We don't believe what we write, and neither should you. Information
>> furnished to you is for topical (external) use only. This information
>> may not be worth any more than either a groundhog turd, or what you
>> paid for it (nothing). The author may not even have been either sane
>> or sober when he wrote it down. Don't worry, be happy.

>
>
> By the way, I forgot to add that Flood's Penetrol is also called Owatrol
> Oil.
> Geedon used to distribute it in the UK, but now it's coming via Igoe.
>
> http://www.wdiyc.org/flood.html
>
> http://www.geedon.co.uk
>
> http://igoe.ie/products/whenyoupaintormaintain.htm
>
> Pittsburgh Pete



 
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