300TDi reluctant cold starts

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K

Kieran Turner

Guest
Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right places...

My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant to
fire. It turns over healthily, although I think there's a slight flickering
about the battery light which I've not noticed before - but then it's never
taken more than a couple of turns to fire before so I've not looked.

Now, I need to turn the engine over for ages - maybe 30 seconds - before it
starts to splutter, then for a while I need to keep the accelerator pumping
to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000 revs for about
30 seconds.

But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it starts
perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning. Needless to say,
I'm only using it for long journeys so the battery stays topped up.

I've already: checked the fuel system for air and muck, checked the oil and
water levels (no contamination or loss) and even added some Redex just in
case that helped (it made no difference).

The car is fairly high mileage (220k), but it's been well serviced and the
fuel filter (a Champion one) is on about 5000 miles.

Any tips? Could this happen if the glow plugs weren't working? (The light
comes on as normal - but is there a self-test in that circuit?)

K


 
Hi Kieran

I am not a expert, but have had a lot of diesel's and have had problems just
as you discribe.

The best way to check them, remove all of them(four) and connect a wire
(quite thick) from the battery positive to the top of the glow plug, and
earth the other end ( BEWARE THEY WILL GET HOT "GLOW") so hold with a pair
of plyers or something, and try all four.

if they go red, they are ok, if they stay black they are dud.

There is a way of testing with a multimeter but this way you will be sure
they are ok or not.

The final testm check you have 12V on the wire that you remove from the
plugs, when you turn on the Ign.

"WARNING" if ok they will be very hot if ok !!!!!!!!

Steve


"Kieran Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right places...
>
> My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant to
> fire. It turns over healthily, although I think there's a slight
> flickering about the battery light which I've not noticed before - but
> then it's never taken more than a couple of turns to fire before so I've
> not looked.
>
> Now, I need to turn the engine over for ages - maybe 30 seconds - before
> it starts to splutter, then for a while I need to keep the accelerator
> pumping to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000 revs
> for about 30 seconds.
>
> But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it
> starts perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning. Needless
> to say, I'm only using it for long journeys so the battery stays topped
> up.
>
> I've already: checked the fuel system for air and muck, checked the oil
> and water levels (no contamination or loss) and even added some Redex just
> in case that helped (it made no difference).
>
> The car is fairly high mileage (220k), but it's been well serviced and the
> fuel filter (a Champion one) is on about 5000 miles.
>
> Any tips? Could this happen if the glow plugs weren't working? (The light
> comes on as normal - but is there a self-test in that circuit?)
>
> K
>


 
Need to have a current draw test done to determine how efficient they are


"RADIOTWO" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi Kieran
>
> I am not a expert, but have had a lot of diesel's and have had problems
just
> as you discribe.
>
> The best way to check them, remove all of them(four) and connect a wire
> (quite thick) from the battery positive to the top of the glow plug, and
> earth the other end ( BEWARE THEY WILL GET HOT "GLOW") so hold with a pair
> of plyers or something, and try all four.
>
> if they go red, they are ok, if they stay black they are dud.
>
> There is a way of testing with a multimeter but this way you will be sure
> they are ok or not.
>
> The final testm check you have 12V on the wire that you remove from the
> plugs, when you turn on the Ign.
>
> "WARNING" if ok they will be very hot if ok !!!!!!!!
>
> Steve
>
>
> "Kieran Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right
places...
> >
> > My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant to
> > fire. It turns over healthily, although I think there's a slight
> > flickering about the battery light which I've not noticed before - but
> > then it's never taken more than a couple of turns to fire before so I've
> > not looked.
> >
> > Now, I need to turn the engine over for ages - maybe 30 seconds - before
> > it starts to splutter, then for a while I need to keep the accelerator
> > pumping to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000
revs
> > for about 30 seconds.
> >
> > But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it
> > starts perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning. Needless
> > to say, I'm only using it for long journeys so the battery stays topped
> > up.
> >
> > I've already: checked the fuel system for air and muck, checked the oil
> > and water levels (no contamination or loss) and even added some Redex
just
> > in case that helped (it made no difference).
> >
> > The car is fairly high mileage (220k), but it's been well serviced and
the
> > fuel filter (a Champion one) is on about 5000 miles.
> >
> > Any tips? Could this happen if the glow plugs weren't working? (The
light
> > comes on as normal - but is there a self-test in that circuit?)
> >
> > K
> >
>
>


 
Hirsty's wrote:
> Need to have a current draw test done to determine how efficient they are
>
Easiest way is to time how long they take to glow red. The parts
listing book from the glow plug manufacturer should give a time for each
type of glow plug.

Richard-beamends have you got these listings and if so could you please
post the times for the benefit of all?


--
EMB
 
do the leakoff pipe bolts still come loose on 300s cos m8s 200 always
started first time unless the banjo bolts came loose it needed to be realy
cole b4 glow plugs had to be left to work


 
jOn wrote:
> do the leakoff pipe bolts still come loose on 300s cos m8s 200 always
> started first time unless the banjo bolts came loose it needed to be
> realy cole b4 glow plugs had to be left to work

WTF did that say?

--
Subaru WRX
Landrover 110 County Station Wagon (Tyson)
WTB a clean RRC pref 3.9 or LSE 4.2

'"gimme the f*ckin' money"


 
On or around Wed, 28 Sep 2005 10:31:21 -0700, "RADIOTWO" <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Hi Kieran
>
>I am not a expert, but have had a lot of diesel's and have had problems just
>as you discribe.
>
>The best way to check them, remove all of them(four) and connect a wire
>(quite thick) from the battery positive to the top of the glow plug, and
>earth the other end ( BEWARE THEY WILL GET HOT "GLOW") so hold with a pair
>of plyers or something, and try all four.
>
>if they go red, they are ok, if they stay black they are dud.
>
>There is a way of testing with a multimeter but this way you will be sure
>they are ok or not.
>

definitely sounds like glow plugs, and also second the thing about the way
to test 'em. They're very low resistance, so you can't generally get sense
from a meter - I've also seen one that glowed half-way up rather than at the
tip, which would have checked out OK with a resistance meter but was no
actual use.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"'Tis a mad world, my masters" John Taylor (1580-1633) Western Voyage, 1
 
On or around Wed, 28 Sep 2005 18:41:33 +0100, MVP
<mr.nice@*nospam*softhome.net> enlightened us thusly:

>
>Sounds like one or more duff glow plugs or a fayult on their wiring
>restricting current flow. I'm not sure how they are wired on the
>300tdi but a quick check would be to check the resistance on each plug
>in turn (disconnect the wire first) and they should all be around the
>same, someone may be along in a moment with a number. A duff one may
>show notably higher resistance.

not conclusive, (except that an open-circuit plug is dud) so you really have
to pull 'em and test 'em on the battery.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"'Tis a mad world, my masters" John Taylor (1580-1633) Western Voyage, 1
 
Hi Kieran,
I'd be trying a simple solution to a known problem and that is
the earthing strap near the starter motor. The original ones were a
braded strap, and this can fill with road "muck" and over time become
useless. On their way out they act as a big resistor, which draws a
lot of current, and in some case changes into a heater element and can
turn a nice read colour as it glows.

Maybe have someone watch this earth strap as you are turning over the
motor, and then check to see how warm it gets.

Have seen quite a few 300 cause early morning problems due to this
strap.


Cheers

Phillip S


On Wed, 28 Sep 2005 16:39:40 +0100, "Kieran Turner"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right places...
>
>My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant to
>fire. It turns over healthily, although I think there's a slight flickering
>about the battery light which I've not noticed before - but then it's never
>taken more than a couple of turns to fire before so I've not looked.
>
>Now, I need to turn the engine over for ages - maybe 30 seconds - before it
>starts to splutter, then for a while I need to keep the accelerator pumping
>to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000 revs for about
>30 seconds.
>
>But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it starts
>perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning. Needless to say,
>I'm only using it for long journeys so the battery stays topped up.
>
>I've already: checked the fuel system for air and muck, checked the oil and
>water levels (no contamination or loss) and even added some Redex just in
>case that helped (it made no difference).
>
>The car is fairly high mileage (220k), but it's been well serviced and the
>fuel filter (a Champion one) is on about 5000 miles.
>
>Any tips? Could this happen if the glow plugs weren't working? (The light
>comes on as normal - but is there a self-test in that circuit?)
>
>K
>

 
Something I found with my VM RR that may apply to your engine.

The relay supplying power to the glow plugs had failed, the plugs were all
fine and tested fine, the light on dash indicated glows were ON, but in fact
the glows were not getting power. I linked a lead light up to one of the
glows, no light. Ran a light jumper lead from + on battery and operated
glows manually, started fine cold. Replaced the relay (70A) and cold
starting was right again

Michael T, Aussie 88 RRC (soon to be TDi300)


 
In message <[email protected]>
EMB <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hirsty's wrote:
> > Need to have a current draw test done to determine how efficient they are
> >
> Easiest way is to time how long they take to glow red. The parts
> listing book from the glow plug manufacturer should give a time for each
> type of glow plug.
>
> Richard-beamends have you got these listings and if so could you please
> post the times for the benefit of all?
>
>

I don't have them - I'll see if I can find them.

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
beamendsltd wrote:
>
> I don't have them - I'll see if I can find them.

Thanks. If you can't find them I can probably ask a few favours to get
them but now that I've left the automotive trade it's a bit hard to get
hold of this sort of thing.


--
EMB
 
It would seem unusual in my experience for ALL glow plugs to snuff it at
once.

As the light seems to be OK, I would be checking the relay, and also (less
likely due to good cranking speed), the engine earth strap.

Cheers,

Lionel

"Kieran Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right places...
>
> My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant to
> fire. It turns over healthily, although I think there's a slight
> flickering about the battery light which I've not noticed before - but
> then it's never taken more than a couple of turns to fire before so I've
> not looked.
>
> Now, I need to turn the engine over for ages - maybe 30 seconds - before
> it starts to splutter, then for a while I need to keep the accelerator
> pumping to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000 revs
> for about 30 seconds.
>
> But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it
> starts perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning. Needless
> to say, I'm only using it for long journeys so the battery stays topped
> up.
>
> I've already: checked the fuel system for air and muck, checked the oil
> and water levels (no contamination or loss) and even added some Redex just
> in case that helped (it made no difference).
>
> The car is fairly high mileage (220k), but it's been well serviced and the
> fuel filter (a Champion one) is on about 5000 miles.
>
> Any tips? Could this happen if the glow plugs weren't working? (The light
> comes on as normal - but is there a self-test in that circuit?)
>
> K
>


 
Phillip Simpson came up with the following;:
> Hi Kieran,
> I'd be trying a simple solution to a known problem and that is
> the earthing strap near the starter motor. The original ones were a
> braded strap, and this can fill with road "muck" and over time become
> useless. On their way out they act as a big resistor, which draws a
> lot of current, and in some case changes into a heater element and can
> turn a nice read colour as it glows.
>
> Maybe have someone watch this earth strap as you are turning over the
> motor, and then check to see how warm it gets.
>
> Have seen quite a few 300 cause early morning problems due to this
> strap.

I'd go along with that one.

A duff earth strap can cause all sorts of problems which appear to be from
some part which, when tested, appears absolutely fine.

First thing I do on any vehicle I get now is to change or at least check,
the earthing, battery to chassis, chassis to engine, engine to battery etc
etc. More is better ... ;)

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!

 
Kieran Hi,

I remember reading an article in one of the LR related magazines published
in the UK about one of their fleet Discos with a 300Tdi engine having the
same problem (difficult cold starting)

It turned out the fuel pump was out of timing. Fiddling with the timing (you
can do so if you remove the small round cover on the left side of the timing
cover (right below from the area where the A/C compressor is located if you
have AC).
It is better to be left to a mechanic who knows what he is doing but I would
suggest you give it a try if all other proposals do not provide you with a
solution.

Take care
Pantelis

"Paul - xxx" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Phillip Simpson came up with the following;:
> > Hi Kieran,
> > I'd be trying a simple solution to a known problem and that is
> > the earthing strap near the starter motor. The original ones were a
> > braded strap, and this can fill with road "muck" and over time become
> > useless. On their way out they act as a big resistor, which draws a
> > lot of current, and in some case changes into a heater element and can
> > turn a nice read colour as it glows.
> >
> > Maybe have someone watch this earth strap as you are turning over the
> > motor, and then check to see how warm it gets.
> >
> > Have seen quite a few 300 cause early morning problems due to this
> > strap.
>
> I'd go along with that one.
>
> A duff earth strap can cause all sorts of problems which appear to be from
> some part which, when tested, appears absolutely fine.
>
> First thing I do on any vehicle I get now is to change or at least check,
> the earthing, battery to chassis, chassis to engine, engine to battery etc
> etc. More is better ... ;)
>
> --
> Paul ...
> (8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
>


 
Kieran,
A few years ago I had a 300Tdi Defender with the same problem.
Someone had *borrowed* the 60Amp fuse in the Glow Plug circuit.
Everything back to normal when it was replaced.
Joskin

"Kieran Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right places...
>
> My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant to
> fire. It turns over healthily, although I think there's a slight
> flickering about the battery light which I've not noticed before - but
> then it's never taken more than a couple of turns to fire before so I've
> not looked.
>
> Now, I need to turn the engine over for ages - maybe 30 seconds - before
> it starts to splutter, then for a while I need to keep the accelerator
> pumping to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000 revs
> for about 30 seconds.
>
> But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it
> starts perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning. Needless
> to say, I'm only using it for long journeys so the battery stays topped
> up.
>
> I've already: checked the fuel system for air and muck, checked the oil
> and water levels (no contamination or loss) and even added some Redex just
> in case that helped (it made no difference).
>
> The car is fairly high mileage (220k), but it's been well serviced and the
> fuel filter (a Champion one) is on about 5000 miles.
>
> Any tips? Could this happen if the glow plugs weren't working? (The light
> comes on as normal - but is there a self-test in that circuit?)
>
> K
>


 
On or around Thu, 29 Sep 2005 19:28:25 +1200, EMB <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>beamendsltd wrote:
>>
>> I don't have them - I'll see if I can find them.
>
>Thanks. If you can't find them I can probably ask a few favours to get
>them but now that I've left the automotive trade it's a bit hard to get
>hold of this sort of thing.

the old ones in the series tended to take quite a while. most of the more
modern kind I've seen take somethihng between about 5 and 10 seconds.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Travel The Galaxy! Meet Fascinating Life Forms...
------------------------------------------------\
>> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ << \ ...and Kill them.
a webcartoon by Howard Tayler; I like it, maybe you will too!
 
On or around Thu, 29 Sep 2005 18:45:45 +1000, "Graeme Evans"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>It would seem unusual in my experience for ALL glow plugs to snuff it at
>once.
>

generally engines will start in warm weather with one, two or even 3
missing. A critical few degrees colder and it won't. 's like the way it
starets fine all summer on a dodgy battery but then it gets slightly colder
and won't go.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Would to God that we might spend a single day really well!"
Thomas À Kempis (1380 - 1471) Imitation of Christ, I.xxiii.
 

"Kieran Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right
> places...
>
> My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant
> to fire. <snip> then for a while I need to keep the accelerator
> pumping to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000
> revs for about 30 seconds.
>
> But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it
> starts perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning.
<snip>

May I offer a dissenting voice to all this concentration on glow plugs?

My 200tdi started immediately all last winter without any glow plug
use - they're not even wired up. It stands outside, and went a
fortnight without being touched at one stage.

I can't see an engine taking 30 seconds to run properly at this time of
the year, simply because there's a bit of unburnt fuel slopping around:
a couple of firing strokes should clear any such stuff out of the
cylinders. A petrol engine, with a manifold full of fuel - yes.

Sounds much more like air getting into the fuel system to me. I'd start
by checking the bleed-off lines from the injectors - a tiny split will
let just enough air into the top of the filter when it stands overnight
to cause your symptoms, but may not leak diesel visibly when the engine
is running. Can't picture the filter head on a 300tdi, but if it has a
rubber button to prime the system, these can split and let air in.
Aren't 300tdi lift pumps a bit notorious for failing, too? They're only
about 20-odd quid from Paddock.


--
Kevin Poole
**Use current month and year to reply (e.g. [email protected])***
Car Transport by Tiltbed Trailer - based near Derby



 
In message <[email protected]>
"Autolycus" <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> "Kieran Turner" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Hi all, I'm looking for your wisdom to help me look in the right
> > places...
> >
> > My Disco 300Tdi has, for the last few mornings, been really reluctant
> > to fire. <snip> then for a while I need to keep the accelerator
> > pumping to prevent a stall. The engine won't hit more than about 2000
> > revs for about 30 seconds.
> >
> > But the weird thing is, after all that, it's completely fine. And it
> > starts perfectly once warm. Just goes wrong again next morning.
> <snip>
>
> May I offer a dissenting voice to all this concentration on glow plugs?
>
> My 200tdi started immediately all last winter without any glow plug
> use - they're not even wired up. It stands outside, and went a
> fortnight without being touched at one stage.
>
> I can't see an engine taking 30 seconds to run properly at this time of
> the year, simply because there's a bit of unburnt fuel slopping around:
> a couple of firing strokes should clear any such stuff out of the
> cylinders. A petrol engine, with a manifold full of fuel - yes.
>
> Sounds much more like air getting into the fuel system to me. I'd start
> by checking the bleed-off lines from the injectors - a tiny split will
> let just enough air into the top of the filter when it stands overnight
> to cause your symptoms, but may not leak diesel visibly when the engine
> is running. Can't picture the filter head on a 300tdi, but if it has a
> rubber button to prime the system, these can split and let air in.
> Aren't 300tdi lift pumps a bit notorious for failing, too? They're only
> about 20-odd quid from Paddock.
>
>

I'd tend to agree, but the 200Tdi starts much better than the 300Tdi
for some reason - I've also never needed to heat my 200Tdi even on
the coldest mornings. Bearing in mind that the Tdi's need far less
time on the plugs anyway, I'd be ckecking the fuse as pointed out
by an earlier poster, and I'd also be looking at the lift pump. It
has a lever hand pump, and you need to be sure it is off the cam
before checking it - the pivot on the arm tends to snap and can fool
you into thinking its ok. Having said that, 200 and 300Tdi's only
really need the lift pump when the fuel has run out for some reason
(the injector pump has enough suck to do the job itself in normal
use) so I'd also be checking for air getting in somewhere.

<FX - Takes salesman hat off>
The cheap versions on the 300Tdi lift pump are problematic, I
don't sell them unless specifically asked after a number of
failures. You pays your money and takes your choice....
</FX>

Richard

--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
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