300Tdi question

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R

Richard Brookman

Guest
Disco 300Tdi auto 1997 - new to me a few weeks ago.

Just returned from holiday, towing a caravan (approx 1300Kg) about 1500
miles in France. Now I know I have come from a RR 4.6, but the towing
performance was a bit pathetic. Over the whole trip, towing at 60-ish when
possible, I got just under 20mpg (better than the 14 the RR did on a similar
trip, but...) and the slightest hill would have it changing down and revving
its nuts off. I felt like I was caning it (and the fuel consumption bears
this out), but if I drove any slower (like below 55) it would never change
up into 4th at all. Admittedly we were heavily laden. but I got sick of
being passed on long hills by saloons pulling much bigger vans with apparent
ease.

Is this about normal? (Without a trailer, the Disco drives well - sluggish
compared to the RR, but quite acceptable). Normal fuel consumption is about
24-25mpg. On the plus side, Di now knows all about how intercoolers work
and is keen to have one!

Any thoughts, O wise ones?

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
This does seem to be a very common problem with 200 / 300 tdi Discoverys mostly prob due to the extra waight from the seating and carpets compared with a Defender ,
On there own they do drive ok , But towing or under any adverse towing comditions they lack grunt.
This is why a very lot of people tend to uprate the intercooler and fuling to improve towing capeability.

Note : on some auto's to adjust the fuling you may need either the ecu chipping of a addon power box.(doing this alone would improve the car tremendiousley)
a further intercooler upgrade would also help a lot.


If you need any advise on either option i would gladly try and help you .

[email protected] www.bellautoservices.co.uk

regards bell :)
 
On or around Wed, 22 Jun 2005 14:58:47 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

> Disco 300Tdi auto 1997 - new to me a few weeks ago.
>
>Is this about normal? (Without a trailer, the Disco drives well - sluggish
>compared to the RR, but quite acceptable). Normal fuel consumption is about
>24-25mpg. On the plus side, Di now knows all about how intercoolers work
>and is keen to have one!
>
>Any thoughts, O wise ones?

24-25 sounds a bit heavy - we reckon about 30 on the manual 300 TDi.

is yours EDC? If not, then I can give advice about tuning it...

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
Richard Brookman came up with the following;:
> Disco 300Tdi auto 1997 - new to me a few weeks ago.
>
> Just returned from holiday, towing a caravan (approx 1300Kg) about 1500
> miles in France. Now I know I have come from a RR 4.6, but the towing
> performance was a bit pathetic. Over the whole trip, towing at 60-ish
> when possible, I got just under 20mpg (better than the 14 the RR did on a
> similar trip, but...) and the slightest hill would have it changing down
> and revving its nuts off. I felt like I was caning it (and the fuel
> consumption bears this out), but if I drove any slower (like below 55) it
> would never change up into 4th at all. Admittedly we were heavily laden.
> but I got sick of being passed on long hills by saloons pulling much
> bigger vans with apparent ease.
>
> Is this about normal? (Without a trailer, the Disco drives well -
> sluggish compared to the RR, but quite acceptable). Normal fuel
> consumption is about 24-25mpg. On the plus side, Di now knows all about
> how intercoolers work and is keen to have one!
>
> Any thoughts, O wise ones?

Summat's wrong with it then, I guess.

Ours is a manual 300 Tdi '97 and we get 28 to 32 ish mpg on it's own. When
towing the worst we've had, 120+ miles into a gale fully loaded and towing
the 'van was about 20 - 22mpg. Normally towing, full caravan and fuly
loaded boot, and I mean 60 to 65 ish, gets 23 - 25 ish mpg. Empty caravan
and little load in Disco gets 25+ mpg, whatever. The slowest we've ever
gone, uphilll into wind, M5 past Bristol area, was about 50 in 4th.

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
Byway acccess issues http://dogpoopblog.blogspot.com/
They need support http://www.rnli.org.uk/Home.asp

 
so bellautos was, like...
> This does seem to be a very common problem with 200 / 300 tdi
> Discoverys mostly prob due to the extra waight from the seating and
> carpets compared with a Defender ,
> On there own they do drive ok , But towing or under any adverse towing
> comditions they lack grunt.
> This is why a very lot of people tend to uprate the intercooler and
> fuling to improve towing capeability.
>
> Note : on some auto's to adjust the fuling you may need either the ecu
> chipping of a addon power box.(doing this alone would improve the car
> tremendiousley)
> a further intercooler upgrade would also help a lot.
>
>
> If you need any advise on either option i would gladly try and help
> you

Yep, a chip and vast intercooler seem to be very much on the cards! Thanks
for the advice.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
so Austin Shackles was, like...
>
> 24-25 sounds a bit heavy - we reckon about 30 on the manual 300 TDi.

A bit disappointing, especially as one of the reasons for chopping the RR
was economy! Even my Td5 Disco (manual) returned almost 28 overall.
However, I have heard (since the change!) that the autos are noticeably
juicier than the manuals.

> is yours EDC? If not, then I can give advice about tuning it...

Sadly I think it's EDC (haven't poked about enough yet, been too busy, but
it's a 97). Thanks for the offer anyways. Chippable, though...

:)

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
I would expect the auto to actualy be slightly less on mpg that a manual they do tend to rev a lot b4 actualy setting off , so this is where the fuel goes :( .

I have put one of my large intercoolers on a 1997 disco auto b4 , I was lucky tho it was NOT a (EDC) pump, so you may be lucky :)
 
so Paul - xxx was, like...
> > Summat's wrong with it then, I guess.

<snip>

Thanks for the info, although I hear the autos are a lot heavier on fuel
than the manuals. Unfortunately, Di has to have an auto (2 big spinal ops),
which was the main reason for getting rid of the Td5 Disco (28 mpg manual).

I think the gearing setup is a lot of the problem. At about 53mph the
autobox goes into direct drive (I assume this is the same as on the 3.9 RR),
where it drops to under 2000prm and has no guts at all. It spins along
lovely at 60, but the first sign of a hill and it starts to wilt - then it
drops to 53mph, changes to 3rd, and it's foot to the floor to stop it
slowing further. I think that's where all the fuel is going. If I try to
dawdle along at 50, it never gets into top gear, at least not with a weight
on the back. If I hit a hill with the Td5 (OK it was a manual), a bit of
right foot kept the speed up and it sailed up long inclines.

If an intercooler upgrade would give it some more at 2000prm or so, it could
hold top gear much longer and may well help the economy. I always knew that
111bhp would not tow as easily as the 225 of the RR, but I wasn't prepared
for how much like hard work it would be! Funnily enough, there are some
short sharp hills round here, and the Disco will climb them more easily than
the Rangie did - there seems to be plenty of grunt when there isn't a
ton-and-a-bit hanging off the towbar.


--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
On or around Wed, 22 Jun 2005 20:00:02 +0100, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>I think the gearing setup is a lot of the problem. At about 53mph the
>autobox goes into direct drive (I assume this is the same as on the 3.9 RR),
>where it drops to under 2000prm and has no guts at all. It spins along
>lovely at 60, but the first sign of a hill and it starts to wilt - then it
>drops to 53mph, changes to 3rd, and it's foot to the floor to stop it
>slowing further. I think that's where all the fuel is going. If I try to
>dawdle along at 50, it never gets into top gear, at least not with a weight
>on the back. If I hit a hill with the Td5 (OK it was a manual), a bit of
>right foot kept the speed up and it sailed up long inclines.

I suspect you're right. On the V8, you drop to 3rd and apply welly but you
then have enough revs to pull hard. The V8 will go into *2nd* if you floor
it at 50...

Problem with the TDi is it has a relatively narrow power band, from about
2000 up to about 3000 revs. Chipping it would presumably improve that
though - what you really want is a chip that gives a lot more torque at
1500-2000 - the converter stall speed is about 1800 ISTR; this means that
under load it'll drop off the bottom of the decent power/torque on the
standard engine, and then have to change down, whereupon it'll be revvign
hard and losing grunt at the top end. I spose a chip that boosts the top
end would solve the speed thing but that would require the use of much
welly.

Worth chekcing everything is in good order first though. Replace all
filters regularly, and check the valve clearances, check that the
intercooler is clean inside and out.

By a bit of judcious tweaking, out TDi is significantly better to drive than
when we first had it. Mind, subjectively, my non-turbo transit-engined bus
goes about as fast up to 60.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
Richard Brookman wrote:
> so Paul - xxx was, like...
>
>>>Summat's wrong with it then, I guess.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for the info, although I hear the autos are a lot heavier on fuel
> than the manuals. Unfortunately, Di has to have an auto (2 big spinal ops),
> which was the main reason for getting rid of the Td5 Disco (28 mpg manual).
>
> I think the gearing setup is a lot of the problem. At about 53mph the
> autobox goes into direct drive (I assume this is the same as on the 3.9 RR),
> where it drops to under 2000prm and has no guts at all. It spins along
> lovely at 60, but the first sign of a hill and it starts to wilt - then it
> drops to 53mph, changes to 3rd, and it's foot to the floor to stop it
> slowing further. I think that's where all the fuel is going. If I try to
> dawdle along at 50, it never gets into top gear, at least not with a weight
> on the back. If I hit a hill with the Td5 (OK it was a manual), a bit of
> right foot kept the speed up and it sailed up long inclines.
>
> If an intercooler upgrade would give it some more at 2000prm or so, it could
> hold top gear much longer and may well help the economy. I always knew that
> 111bhp would not tow as easily as the 225 of the RR, but I wasn't prepared
> for how much like hard work it would be! Funnily enough, there are some
> short sharp hills round here, and the Disco will climb them more easily than
> the Rangie did - there seems to be plenty of grunt when there isn't a
> ton-and-a-bit hanging off the towbar.

You're in a very similar position to myself but see an even worse effect.

I changed from a 3.5Efi auto RRC to a 300Tdi auto RRC and in so doing
gave up a third of my horsepower. You've given up even more.

Simply we're just short of that horsepower. The torque is there but not
in combination with engine speed. Changing the gearing is not going to
help and the engine's not ill.

An intercooler upgrade would certainly help but let's not kid ourselves
it won't get us back to square one.

But we are better off in the pocket - though I suspect that neither of
our driving styles is going to result in some of the heady fuel
consumption figures that we read about here!
 


"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Disco 300Tdi auto 1997 - new to me a few weeks ago.
>
> Just returned from holiday, towing a caravan (approx 1300Kg) about 1500
> miles in France. Now I know I have come from a RR 4.6, but the towing
> performance was a bit pathetic. Over the whole trip, towing at 60-ish
> when possible, I got just under 20mpg (better than the 14 the RR did on a
> similar trip, but...) and the slightest hill would have it changing down
> and revving its nuts off. I felt like I was caning it (and the fuel
> consumption bears this out), but if I drove any slower (like below 55) it
> would never change up into 4th at all. Admittedly we were heavily laden.
> but I got sick of being passed on long hills by saloons pulling much
> bigger vans with apparent ease.
>
> Is this about normal? (Without a trailer, the Disco drives well -
> sluggish compared to the RR, but quite acceptable). Normal fuel
> consumption is about 24-25mpg. On the plus side, Di now knows all about
> how intercoolers work and is keen to have one!
>
> Any thoughts, O wise ones?
>


My 200 TDI disco gets about 32-34 solo, 32-34 towing a small trailer,
30-32ish towing my old dears caravan or SWMBO's SJ on its trailer. I used
to get about 16 towing the GLASS exhibition trailer (over 2000kg, 15 ft
tall, and makes a Defender look aerodynamic). Turbo started howling a
fortnight ago, fitted a new one and now get 20 towing the GLASS trailer, and
still the same solo, but better pickup....

--
Simon Isaacs

Peterborough 4x4 Club Newsletter Editor and Webmaster
Green Lane Association (GLASS) Commercial Officer
Part owner of 1976 S3 LWT, Fully restored, ready for sale! Make me an
offer!
Suzuki SJ410 (Fiancée's) 3" lift kit fitted, body shell now restored and
mounted on chassis, waiting on a windscreen and MOT
Series 3 88" Rolling chassis...what to do next
1993 200 TDi Discovery
1994 200 TDi Discovery body sheel, being bobbed and modded.....
1979 Range Ruster body shell and chassis


 
On or around Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:05:44 +0100, Dougal
<DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> enlightened us thusly:

>Simply we're just short of that horsepower. The torque is there but not
>in combination with engine speed. Changing the gearing is not going to
>help and the engine's not ill.

a gearing change might improve matters WRT the lock-up of the converter.

but you really want a wider torque curve which gives more at 1500 and
doesn't lose any at 3500. Should be do-able.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
Wow. After Austin's tweaks I had no difficulty towing a 2.5 ton boat on a
half ton trailer at any speed I cared to do in the 200TDi manual. I wouldn't
say I didn't know the boat was there but I could pull up to 60 no problem,
didn't dare to go beyond that. Fuel was around 25 ish which I was more than
happy with. My opinion is that some are set to burn so lean that it actually
destroys the fuel consumption rather than aiding it. With a bit more fuel in
the system everything improves. I'm still grateful Austin!
TonyB


 
On or around Wed, 22 Jun 2005 21:33:43 +0000 (UTC), "Simon Isaacs"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>My 200 TDI disco gets about 32-34 solo, 32-34 towing a small trailer,
>30-32ish towing my old dears caravan or SWMBO's SJ on its trailer. I used
>to get about 16 towing the GLASS exhibition trailer (over 2000kg, 15 ft
>tall, and makes a Defender look aerodynamic). Turbo started howling a
>fortnight ago, fitted a new one and now get 20 towing the GLASS trailer, and
>still the same solo, but better pickup....

I believe there's some evidence that the 200 TDi, properly tuned, is
actually slightly more economical, if less refined.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
On 2005-06-22, Richard Brookman <[email protected]> wrote:

> Is this about normal? (Without a trailer, the Disco drives well - sluggish
> compared to the RR, but quite acceptable). Normal fuel consumption is about
> 24-25mpg. On the plus side, Di now knows all about how intercoolers work
> and is keen to have one!

This is probably the way to go. I have a replacement intercooler and
Allard turbo pipework on my 200TDi auto RR and this has made a big
difference to the performance, with and without a trailer, and hasn't
made a noticeable difference to the economy.

In particular, it seems to change down a lot less than it used to.
I got my intercooler from John Norman at Brunel Performance. He
uses standard headers and puts a bigger mesh on, so it fits in
the same place next to the radiator. No connection other than as
a satisfied customer.

-- Pete
 
so Dougal was, like...
>
> I changed from a 3.5Efi auto RRC to a 300Tdi auto RRC and in so doing
> gave up a third of my horsepower. You've given up even more.
>
> Simply we're just short of that horsepower. The torque is there but
> not in combination with engine speed. Changing the gearing is not
> going to help and the engine's not ill.
>
> An intercooler upgrade would certainly help but let's not kid
> ourselves it won't get us back to square one.
>
> But we are better off in the pocket - though I suspect that neither of
> our driving styles is going to result in some of the heady fuel
> consumption figures that we read about here!

Hmm - not sure you could count me in there. :)

I tend to drive pretty steadily, only rarely use max revs, and always have
an eye on the economy. I learnt to drive when "mechanical sympathy" was
regarded as a virtue, not a waste of time for a throwaway product. On the
France trip, the cruise control was thrashing the car more than I was! On
long hills, I was deselecting the CC out of sympathy with the engine. I
don't regard trying to maintain 50-60mph on a motorway with gentle hills as
unreasonable. As to better off in the pocket - well, yes, up to a point.
But the Scottish guy in the caravan on the next pitch reckoned he got about
40mpg towing a similar (medium) caravan at 60+ behind a diesel Rover 75. I
got below 20.

I take your point about the bhp, though. 111 will never be 225, no matter
how you figure it!


--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
so Pete Young was, like...
>
> This is probably the way to go. I have a replacement intercooler and
> Allard turbo pipework on my 200TDi auto RR and this has made a big
> difference to the performance, with and without a trailer, and hasn't
> made a noticeable difference to the economy.
>

I think if I keep it, that's the way I'll go. BUT...

I have the offer of a swap (same independent dealer) to an early auto Td5
for about the same money (price to change) as I would spend on an
intercooler and chip upgrade for the Tdi, and I am seriously considering
this. The Td5 is in excellent condition throughout, but has been
pressurising the coolant. Dealer reckons it's the head gasket and will fix
it, but will replace the head if necessary. Otherwise, it's a peach with
just over 100K on the clock. I've had a Td5 before and know it has enough
power for what I need (and it's an auto, so no off-idle stalling issues that
so p*ssed me off with the manual). I'm sorely tempted.

Which is going to be the better deal - a straight and clean Td5 with enough
grunt but a possible issue with the engine, or an older, less tidy Tdi with
a big intercooler and evil chip?

Oh dear, decisions... Help, someone!


--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)


 
I find that mine (96) is very much as you describe. I think the biggest
issue is the gear ratios which are very far apart. (3rd and fourth) You find
yourself either labouring in Forth or screaming in 3rd. I am in km/h but I
won't exceed 80km/h in third as the engine seems quite unhappy above this.
I find the max I can get comfortably in lockup forth is about 110km/h. Much
over that and you are again in the uncomfortable zone.

I find that dealing with hills is particularly poor. It just about manages
to get itself up with me in the car, but throw a few more bods in and your
hillclimbing tends to be done in the truck lane. As for towing, I only tow a
light trailer +-500kgs, and this is enough to virtually slow you to a crawl.
On the plus side I usually return about 9.5l/100km in normal driving and
slightly over 10l/100km with a trailer on. The engine has just been rebuilt
so it is not old and tired.

Regards
Stephen

"bellautos" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> This does seem to be a very common problem with 200 / 300 tdi Discoverys
> mostly prob due to the extra waight from the seating and carpets
> compared with a Defender ,
> On there own they do drive ok , But towing or under any adverse towing
> comditions they lack grunt.
> This is why a very lot of people tend to uprate the intercooler and
> fuling to improve towing capeability.
>
> Note : on some auto's to adjust the fuling you may need either the ecu
> chipping of a addon power box.(doing this alone would improve the car
> tremendiousley)
> a further intercooler upgrade would also help a lot.
>
>
> If you need any advise on either option i would gladly try and help you


 

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> so Paul - xxx was, like...
> > > Summat's wrong with it then, I guess.
>
> <snip>
>
> Thanks for the info, although I hear the autos are a lot heavier on fuel
> than the manuals. Unfortunately, Di has to have an auto (2 big spinal
ops),
> which was the main reason for getting rid of the Td5 Disco (28 mpg
manual).
>
> I think the gearing setup is a lot of the problem.

<snip>

Just a thought, maybe the gearbox has been replaced by one not out of a Tdi
as the gearbox control unit on the Tdi is listed as SFC1582 and the ones for
the 3.9 and 4.2 are listed as STC930 and STC907 respectively, maybe the
gearing *is* wrong in that the changing speeds are different.

Martin


 
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