2nd gear always dies first.

G'day folks,
I built my SeriesIII ish 109 Stat Wag in 1994 and have got through 7 or
8 gearboxes in that time. (I've given up counting.)
What bugs me more is that they always go in the same way.
1. 2nd gear chatters on overrun/engine braking,
2. then it begins to jump out of 2nd on overrun/engine braking,
3. then the transition from 1st to 2nd becomes difficult,
4. finally getting into 2nd from either direction becomes impossible
without slowing to a halt or putting overdrive in neutral and then
releasing the clutch as I re-engage the overdrive.

I have no idea what causes this and I'd like to run some ideas past
anybody who knows SIIA/III boxes intimately.

A) The engine is an Iveco 2.5TDi. Could the engine/gearbox conversion
plate be pushing the input shaft off?
B) I have a Fairey Overdrive, is it possible that some misalignment has
been causing all these worries? (less likely)
C) Is 2nd gear somehow more sensitive to dryness since I have never had
a gearbox which takes more than a month to shed it's entire load of EP90?

At the moment I'm just resigned to buying a recon box every 18months but
it shouldn't be that way.

My driving:
Well in for the first 3 gearboxes I was careful on the road (while the
new engine ran in) but thrashing at off-roading comps and holidays.
The next 2 gearboxes saw me give up off-roading but drive like a boy
racer on road.
Since then I do no off-roading and drive like a granny on road 'cos I'm
sick of changing the box - it makes no difference.


Any Ideas?

--
Andy Richardson

Never criticize a man 'til you've walked a mile in his shoes.
After that, you can say what you like..
'cos you're a mile away and you've got his shoes.

"Andy Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> G'day folks,
> I built my SeriesIII ish 109 Stat Wag in 1994 and have got through 7 or 8
> gearboxes in that time. (I've given up counting.)
> What bugs me more is that they always go in the same way.
> 1. 2nd gear chatters on overrun/engine braking,
> 2. then it begins to jump out of 2nd on overrun/engine braking,
> 3. then the transition from 1st to 2nd becomes difficult,
> 4. finally getting into 2nd from either direction becomes impossible
> without slowing to a halt or putting overdrive in neutral and then
> releasing the clutch as I re-engage the overdrive.
>
> I have no idea what causes this and I'd like to run some ideas past
> anybody who knows SIIA/III boxes intimately.
>
> A) The engine is an Iveco 2.5TDi. Could the engine/gearbox conversion
> plate be pushing the input shaft off?
> B) I have a Fairey Overdrive, is it possible that some misalignment has
> been causing all these worries? (less likely)
> C) Is 2nd gear somehow more sensitive to dryness since I have never had a
> gearbox which takes more than a month to shed it's entire load of EP90?
>
> At the moment I'm just resigned to buying a recon box every 18months but
> it shouldn't be that way.
>
> My driving:
> Well in for the first 3 gearboxes I was careful on the road (while the new
> engine ran in) but thrashing at off-roading comps and holidays.
> The next 2 gearboxes saw me give up off-roading but drive like a boy racer
> on road.
> Since then I do no off-roading and drive like a granny on road 'cos I'm
> sick of changing the box - it makes no difference.
>
>
> Any Ideas?
>
> --
> Andy Richardson
>
> Never criticize a man 'til you've walked a mile in his shoes.
> After that, you can say what you like..
> 'cos you're a mile away and you've got his shoes.

Hi Andy

I had similar problems on my 88" 2a this was running a 2.5td with a fairy
overdrive. Imo the main problem is that the gearboxes are only just up to
the job of a 2.25 petrol engine so if you you put any extra grunt through
them they fail remarkabley quickley.A bloke up the road from me who builds
lots of them (supplies paddocks) will not warranty the box if an over drive
is fitted or it is fitted to anything other than a standard engine.
IIRC The later series 2a boxes were the strongest they made but no synchro
on 2nd and saying that I went through 2 of them.
The way I fixed mine in the end was to get a 110.

Hope this helps ( note my earlier post )

Icky

Andy Richardson wrote:

> G'day folks,
> I built my SeriesIII ish 109 Stat Wag in 1994 and have got through 7 or
> 8 gearboxes in that time. (I've given up counting.)
> What bugs me more is that they always go in the same way.
> 1. 2nd gear chatters on overrun/engine braking,
> 2. then it begins to jump out of 2nd on overrun/engine braking,
> 3. then the transition from 1st to 2nd becomes difficult,
> 4. finally getting into 2nd from either direction becomes impossible
> without slowing to a halt or putting overdrive in neutral and then
> releasing the clutch as I re-engage the overdrive.
>
> I have no idea what causes this and I'd like to run some ideas past
> anybody who knows SIIA/III boxes intimately.
>
> A) The engine is an Iveco 2.5TDi. Could the engine/gearbox conversion
> plate be pushing the input shaft off?
> B) I have a Fairey Overdrive, is it possible that some misalignment has
> been causing all these worries? (less likely)
> C) Is 2nd gear somehow more sensitive to dryness since I have never had
> a gearbox which takes more than a month to shed it's entire load of EP90?
>
> At the moment I'm just resigned to buying a recon box every 18months but
> it shouldn't be that way.
>
> My driving:
> Well in for the first 3 gearboxes I was careful on the road (while the
> new engine ran in) but thrashing at off-roading comps and holidays.
> The next 2 gearboxes saw me give up off-roading but drive like a boy
> racer on road.
> Since then I do no off-roading and drive like a granny on road 'cos I'm
> sick of changing the box - it makes no difference.
>
>
> Any Ideas?
>
The Series 3 gearbox was designed primarily for the 2.25 petrol engine. It
copes with the six since the impulse from the individual cylinders is no
more than on the four, but your engine is substantially higher torque than
either, and also has much higher torque pulses than the engines the box was
designed for. Your problem is that the engine is simply too powerful for
the gearbox.
The S3 gearbox is an all synchro development of the S2 box, which in turn is
the S1 box with a few minor changes - and the S1 started life with a 1600cc
engine of just over 50hp. But I understand the box was originally designed
in 1932, when it was fitted to even lower power engines.
JD

On Wed, 24 May 2006 16:46:14 +0100, Andy Richardson
<[email protected]> wrote:

>G'day folks,
>I built my SeriesIII ish 109 Stat Wag in 1994 and have got through 7 or
>8 gearboxes in that time. (I've given up counting.)
>What bugs me more is that they always go in the same way.
>1. 2nd gear chatters on overrun/engine braking,
>2. then it begins to jump out of 2nd on overrun/engine braking,
>3. then the transition from 1st to 2nd becomes difficult,
>4. finally getting into 2nd from either direction becomes impossible
>without slowing to a halt or putting overdrive in neutral and then
>releasing the clutch as I re-engage the overdrive.
>
>I have no idea what causes this and I'd like to run some ideas past
>anybody who knows SIIA/III boxes intimately.
>

If you have a look at the actual gears that do the 2nd gear work, you
will see why they always wear out. In a IIa box, 2nd engages onto the
1st gear on the mainshaft to get drive along the mainshaft (2nd gear
just idles on the mainshaft when out of gear) However there are only
11 protuding teeth on the 2nd gear, and 22 recieving teeth on the 1st
gear, which engage as a dog clutch. Furthermore the teeth are only
about 6mm wide or so. Consequently they wear out very quickly. The
problem is less evident on SIII boxes as they have a synchromesh on
2nd, which means that you get less damage engaging the gear.
Unfortunatly the gearbox is the same length, so there is no room to
make the gears much bigger, so they still wear out, just not as fast.
)

Your particular problem is that you have an engine which puts hell of
a lot more torque through the gearbox. The Series gearbox is just not
up to the job of handling much more than the power/torque output of a
2.25. It is an old design and despite the many, many modifications LR
did over the 40 year life of the gearbox, it was never going to cope
with anything bigger than the 2.25. Your only realistic option is to
fit a later gearbox, from range-rover or defender.

Alex

Alex wrote:

> On Wed, 24 May 2006 16:46:14 +0100, Andy Richardson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>G'day folks,
>>I built my SeriesIII ish 109 Stat Wag in 1994 and have got through 7 or
>>8 gearboxes in that time. (I've given up counting.)
>>What bugs me more is that they always go in the same way.
>>1. 2nd gear chatters on overrun/engine braking,
>>2. then it begins to jump out of 2nd on overrun/engine braking,
>>3. then the transition from 1st to 2nd becomes difficult,
>>4. finally getting into 2nd from either direction becomes impossible
>>without slowing to a halt or putting overdrive in neutral and then
>>releasing the clutch as I re-engage the overdrive.
>>
>>I have no idea what causes this and I'd like to run some ideas past
>>anybody who knows SIIA/III boxes intimately.
>>
>
>
> If you have a look at the actual gears that do the 2nd gear work, you
> will see why they always wear out. In a IIa box, 2nd engages onto the
> 1st gear on the mainshaft to get drive along the mainshaft (2nd gear
> just idles on the mainshaft when out of gear) However there are only
> 11 protuding teeth on the 2nd gear, and 22 recieving teeth on the 1st
> gear, which engage as a dog clutch. Furthermore the teeth are only
> about 6mm wide or so. Consequently they wear out very quickly. The
> problem is less evident on SIII boxes as they have a synchromesh on
> 2nd, which means that you get less damage engaging the gear.
> Unfortunatly the gearbox is the same length, so there is no room to
> make the gears much bigger, so they still wear out, just not as fast.
> )
>
> Your particular problem is that you have an engine which puts hell of
> a lot more torque through the gearbox. The Series gearbox is just not
> up to the job of handling much more than the power/torque output of a
> 2.25. It is an old design and despite the many, many modifications LR
> did over the 40 year life of the gearbox, it was never going to cope
> with anything bigger than the 2.25. Your only realistic option is to
> fit a later gearbox, from range-rover or defender.
>
> Alex

Are you happy that the reconditioned boxes that you are using are fitted
with new parts in the first/second synchro areas mentioned above by Alex?

I suspect that some (probably many) reconditioners are re-using parts
which might survive their warranty period with the standard engines but
have no chance with any engine with a greater output torque.

The long term solution lies with a different gearbox.

Thanks folks, well that seems pretty unanimous - the engine is too butch.

Oh well, now you've got me curious about later gearboxes.
Don't go doing any major research but off your collective heads, are
there any glaringly obvious issues.

Is there any similarity in length, bell-housing size and stud
positioning or gearbox mount positions?

My biggest issue is with getting another engine/gearbox conversion plate
made up.

It's on a 109 chassis with the detachable gearbox X-member if that helps.
Cheers folks
--
Andy Richardson

Never criticize a man 'til you've walked a mile in his shoes.
After that, you can say what you like..
'cos you're a mile away and you've got his shoes.

"Andy Richardson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> G'day folks,
> I built my SeriesIII ish 109 Stat Wag in 1994 and have got through 7 or
> 8 gearboxes in that time. (I've given up counting.)
> What bugs me more is that they always go in the same way.
> 1. 2nd gear chatters on overrun/engine braking,
> 2. then it begins to jump out of 2nd on overrun/engine braking,
> 3. then the transition from 1st to 2nd becomes difficult,
> 4. finally getting into 2nd from either direction becomes impossible
> without slowing to a halt or putting overdrive in neutral and then
> releasing the clutch as I re-engage the overdrive.
>
> I have no idea what causes this and I'd like to run some ideas past
> anybody who knows SIIA/III boxes intimately.
>
> A) The engine is an Iveco 2.5TDi. Could the engine/gearbox conversion
> plate be pushing the input shaft off?

Sounds to me like the conversion plate is misaligned or off centre.

> B) I have a Fairey Overdrive, is it possible that some misalignment has
> been causing all these worries? (less likely)

You can't really misalign the Fairey overdrive when fitting, but the gearbox
mainshaft is not held as rigidly by the overdrive unit as the by the
original rear bearing carrier where the overdrive now fits which will allow
any run out of the mainshaft caused by a badly made conversion plate to be
exaggerated and accelerate wear on second gear. (Run out on the input shaft
will also affect the mainshaft behind it). Are you locking the mainshaft
rear nut up properly on the overdrive adaptor?.

> C) Is 2nd gear somehow more sensitive to dryness since I have never had
> a gearbox which takes more than a month to shed it's entire load of EP90?

If the gearbox oil level is low the first and second gears may not dip in
the oil but should still be lubricated by splash from the constant mesh. If
it is losing all its oil in only a month then you have a serious leak which
could run it dry and definitely needs sorting.
> At the moment I'm just resigned to buying a recon box every 18months but
> it shouldn't be that way.
>
> My driving:
> Well in for the first 3 gearboxes I was careful on the road (while the
> new engine ran in) but thrashing at off-roading comps and holidays.
> The next 2 gearboxes saw me give up off-roading but drive like a boy
> racer on road.
> Since then I do no off-roading and drive like a granny on road 'cos I'm
> sick of changing the box - it makes no difference.
>
>
> Any Ideas?
>
Have you yourself actually looked in the box to see what's worn and what
isn't?. Series 3s are stronger boxes than series 2s but are weak on reverse
(don't pull anything heavy backwards!).

A 200Tdi engine will fit straight to a series gearbox less one stud and a
couple of holes drilling so it follows that an early 5 speed box off a
200Tdi will fit a series engine , or a conversion made to fit a series
gearbox. Don't forget you will have to change the clutch driven plate though
to fit the input shaft. The removable gearbox crossmember will be no good
though, you will have to adapt the 5 speed crossmember or fabricate another
and redrill the chassis.

Finally if the problem lies with the conversion then you will have to source
another one anyway.

HTH Martin

It is certainly the case that 2nd is the one that jumps out of gear on my
series.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes



"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Wed, 24 May 2006 16:46:14 +0100, Andy Richardson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> If you have a look at the actual gears that do the 2nd gear work, you
> will see why they always wear out. In a IIa box, 2nd engages onto the
> 1st gear on the mainshaft to get drive along the mainshaft (2nd gear
> just idles on the mainshaft when out of gear) However there are only
> 11 protuding teeth on the 2nd gear, and 22 recieving teeth on the 1st
> gear, which engage as a dog clutch. Furthermore the teeth are only
> about 6mm wide or so. Consequently they wear out very quickly. The
> problem is less evident on SIII boxes as they have a synchromesh on
> 2nd, which means that you get less damage engaging the gear.
> Unfortunatly the gearbox is the same length, so there is no room to
> make the gears much bigger, so they still wear out, just not as fast.
> )
>
> Your particular problem is that you have an engine which puts hell of
> a lot more torque through the gearbox. The Series gearbox is just not
> up to the job of handling much more than the power/torque output of a
> 2.25. It is an old design and despite the many, many modifications LR
> did over the 40 year life of the gearbox, it was never going to cope
> with anything bigger than the 2.25. Your only realistic option is to
> fit a later gearbox, from range-rover or defender.
>
> Alex

On Fri, 26 May 2006 21:14:42 +0100, "Larry" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>It is certainly the case that 2nd is the one that jumps out of gear on my
>series.

In my experience the main failures are 2nd gear or the synchros on
3rd. Excepting early IIa boxes (A-B suffix) and early SIII boxes,
where the layshaft bearings fail.

Alex