2002 TD4 Rear brakes problem

:behindsofa:
Hi Guys & Gals.....Since buying the car in December, I have not been very happy with the performance of the handbrake. Initially there were only 2 notches on the handbrake and I backed the adjuster on the lever assembly to give me 4-5 notches. However the handbrake would only just about hold the car on a hill.
I purchased a new set of brake shoes and drums last week and decided to fit them today. removed the brake drums and there was still a fair amount of lining thickness remaining on the old shoes.
The new shoes were assembled with all the bits & pieces. Apart from the pivoting lever for the handbrake, both sides (Where the handbrake cable nipple locates) being stiff-I eased it and it now moves freely, the self adjuster nuts were free and all parts were in good order. The handbrake cables move freely and are not frayed/damaged. The wheel cylinder pistons are free and there are no signs of fluid leakage past the seals-everything is dry.Double checked against RAVE & Haynes that everything was fitted as it should be.
Backed the self adjuster "Nuts" right off (As per RAVE) and refitted the shoes & drums.
Pumped the brake pedal well over 50 times to self adjust the shoes and checked the handbrake-it virtually went to maximum travel. Pumped the foot brake again a further 30 or so times and still the same.
I then adjusted the nut on the equalising link at the lever until I have about 7 notches..the nut is almost at the extent of it's range and the handbrake is worse than ever, won't even hold the car on a slight slope.
I have read on here that the F/lander handbrake is not the best in the world, but mine appears to be non existant

Any ideas Guys ????

The Haynes says it should only be adjusted when new shoes are fitted which was a surprise to me when I serviced mine at the weekend.

I would remove the drum and operate the handbrake slowly making sure everything moves as it should. If it does, set it up as per the Haynes; put the handbrake to the first click, the drums should only just catch. Then release the first click and it should free up.

Have you been fully cycling the break pedal, I mean fully up to fully down? Mine didn't adjust the first time as I didn't full press and release the pedal.

Thanks for the quick response...appreciated.
It's not even trying to hold on the 7 notches that I have. Obviously something must be causing the handbrake lever to stop at the 7 notches...I would assume the shoes contacting the drum, yet the car will roll back on a relatively slight slope as though it's not doing anything
Yes, I did press the pedal down as far as it would go then fully release and pause for a second before repeating....many times !!
It also feels the rear brakes are doing Jack Sh*t when driving and the footbrake is applied.
As stated in my original post, I have not lost any brake fluid and the wheel cylinders are free and there are no signs of seepage past the seals.

In all the years of doing my own servicing & repairs I have never come across this one before !!!
Looks like drums off tomorrow and further investigation.

Oh, before anyone asks...Yes I did clean the drums & linings with brake cleaner after assembly and before final fitting of the drums. Everything is as clean & free as a pair of nuns knickers !!!

The self adjusters sound worn to me. Did you check their condition?

If both the foot brake and the handbrake are doing nothing, the fault must be common to both; drums, shoes, or adjusters.


Are the adjusters seized?

Are the drums easy to get on and off?

Have you got any more room on your adjuster at the lever to take anymore slack? If not, it maybe the cables are stretched too far, to take the extra slack put a few washers behind the nut.

Freelaner said:

The self adjusters sound worn to me. Did you check their condtion?

Click to expand...

Yes...the teeth on the nuts are sharp and not worn, the small "Triggers" which locate and turn the nuts are also unworn. The L.H. one looks as though it has been replaced. The springs on the triggers are in the correct location and when the trigger is moved manually it does in fact turn the nut.
When the original shoes were removed, the adjuster nut (On both sides) was about 10-12 mm along the thread from the forked part of the screw. When I reassembled the adjusters, I backed the nut off to the end then gave it about 2 turns the other way.
Given the thickness of lining material on the old shoes I would have expected the handbrake to be more than capable of holding the car, but it didn't on a hill despite applying the handbrake hard on.
I suspected at the time that maybe the linings were badly worn or non existant hence my decision to replace both drums and shoes with new.
As per my last post, it's drums off tomorrow and someone to apply the foot & handbrake so I can see what's happening (Or not).

mick 1986 said:

If both the foot brake and the handbrake are doing nothing, the fault must be common to both; drums, shoes, or adjusters.


Are the adjusters seized?

No-the nuts were free to turn, plus I cleaned them and put a smear of Copper grease on the threads.
As a matter of interest, the R.H. (Drivers side) adjuster has a normal RH thread and the LH (Passenger side) has a LH thread...is this correct ??

Are the drums easy to get on and off?

Yes, the originals came off reasonably easy-didn't have to back the adjusters off and the new ones went on easily which I expected as the adjusters had been backed right off.



Have you got any more room on your adjuster at the lever to take anymore slack? If not, it maybe the cables are stretched too far, to take the extra slack put a few washers behind the nut.

Click to expand...

The adjuster nut is not too far off the end of the thread I think as there is about 40mm of thread sticking out past the nut.
What's throwing me is the fact that after adjusting the nut, I had resistance at the handbrake lever as you would expect when the handbrake is applied...yet the handbrake is totally inefficient and doing almost nothing.

:behindsofa:

Sitting here with a fag and a brandy thinking of this "Headache" and a couple of thoughts are going through my mind:

1.
What if the return spring on the handbrake cable (Inside the drum) is becoming "Coil bound"..I noticed that the coils on the spring are fairly close together. This would effectively stop the travel of the handbrake actuator which is pulled directly by the cable, if the spring was coil bound, it would stop the movement of the shoe and give the same effect at the handbrake lever as the brake being applied. Obviously, if the shoes are a mile away from the drum to start with, this would mean that the distance required for the handbrake to engage the shoes would be greater, possibly less than the travel of the cable.
The slot that the cable hooks into is, from memory, about 12 mm wide which reduces the available travel before the spring gets coil bound by that amount, I also remember that when I was pulling the spring back to refit the cable, there was not much more travel left in the spring.

2.
I will check tomorrow that the wheel cylinder pistons are in fact moving and applying the shoes/linings against the drum when the footbrake is applied.
3.
Although it goes against all instructions in RAVE & Haynes, if 2 above proves to be o.k., I intend turning the self adjuster nuts until a light drag is present when the drum is fitted and then backing off say 1 turn. Hopefully, if self adjustment needs to take up any clearance it will do so.

Any thoughts on these ideas would be appreciated.

Don't over think it, just take them apart and do it again. If your going to take up some slack in the adjuster don't take up too much, not till they drag or they will adjust unevenly so that you only get the leading edge in contact.

If the springs are becoming coil bound, and the adjuster at the handbrake lever is as far as it can go, then the cables need replacing as they have over stretched. If you can adjust it further at the handbrake lever then take up the slack.

Did you check the lever that the cable end slots into inside the drum? One of mine was free, as in I could move it by hand, but the other was stuck solid and needed a screwdriver as a lever and a load of copper slip to get it free.

When I backed my adjuster off I pumped brakes for a bit. But still found it took a few days of driving for the adjuster to take up the slack. I could tell as I adjusted hand brake to 2 clicks and it went to 1 click and had to back back off. Can you tell how far off the drum the shoes are at rest. Is there lots of play as you slide off the drum?

Once properly adjusted my hand brake was very good .

slave cylinders or stretched cable, as you say strip and check operation with drum off


don't let your assistant depress the brake pedal too much though

If the springs are becoming coil bound, and the adjuster at the handbrake lever is as far as it can go, then the cables need replacing as they have over stretched. If you can adjust it further at the handbrake lever then take up the slack.

Did you check the lever that the cable end slots into inside the drum? One of mine was free, as in I could move it by hand, but the other was stuck solid and needed a screwdriver as a lever and a load of copper slip to get it free

As per my first post- both levers were tight (ish), I eased them and put copper grease on the pivot.



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When I backed my adjuster off I pumped brakes for a bit. But still found it took a few days of driving for the adjuster to take up the slack. I could tell as I adjusted hand brake to 2 clicks and it went to 1 click and had to back back off. Can you tell how far off the drum the shoes are at rest. Is there lots of play as you slide off the drum?

Once properly adjusted my hand brake was very good .

The drums slide off easily.--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

slave cylinders or stretched cable, as you say strip and check operation with drum off


don't let your assistant depress the brake pedal too much though

At a guess,as the pistons are free in the wheel cylinders and there are no fluid leaks past the seals-I would think the cylinders are ok. All will be revealed...hopefully tomorrow !!!



Thanks for all the replies folks...I will update you tomorrow with my findings.

UPDATE.....

Took both drums off today and inspected the setup.

Despite depressing the pedal many times yesterday (50+) it appears that both auto adjusters had hardly moved from the almost backed off position. I could tell by the ease in which the drums came off that the shoes were well away from the drums. Both adjuster "Nuts" are free to turn when they are not under any brake spring pressure and have been given a smear of copper grease, however when they are under spring pressure, the adjustment triggers do not seem to have enough strength to turn them, they locate into the tooth on the nuts but just sit there. The teeth on the nuts are not rounded or worn and the triggers are free to move. The upper brake spring is clear of the adjuster nuts. The pistons move freely to expand the shoes and return quickly and smoothly.
The handbrake cable return spring coils really look very close together and I think that they were becoming coil bound and physically restricting the travel. I bit the bullet and shortened them by around 10-12mm with a dremel, there is still tension against the hook where the cable locates.
Because it's impossible to see what is happening with the adjusters when the drum is fitted and contrary to RAVE, I manually adjusted the adjuster nuts until I had a slight contact on both shoes.
The handbrake equaliser adjuster was set to give 4-5 notches and the wheels now lock up when applied. However, I tried the handbrake on a steep hill and despite pulling the handbrake hard on, the car still crept forward, albeit very slowly.
Hopefully, the fact that the linings have not yet bedded in may have a bearing on this and things may improve when this has taken place. I must say that the handbrake is nowhere near as efficient as the transmission handbrakes fitted to both Rangies and a Disco that I have previously owned...maybe I am expecting too much !!!
I have also ordered a pair of replacement cables today in case those fitted are stretching and I can replace them if things do not improve after the bedding in period. They should be easy enough to change as I am getting a dab hand at removing the shoes now!

Thanks for all the replies folks...appreciated, any further info/guidance would be welcome.

I put some molykote (spelling? who cares) 111 grease on my brake parts, but then wiped it back off as I thought it made it parts bind a bit. So only have a bit of copper slip on rub pads on rear face/brake shoe.
Does the copper grease on the adjuster thread cause more resistance to turn? Mine are really easy when dry.
Also my handbrake arm lever was solid. Took ages to free it. One side was slack, so bought another for the stiff side and the replacement was much slacker. Unsure if they modified it slightly, or had cheap alternative part on.

Quick update........The shoes appear to be bedding in as braking performance seems to be getting better, including the handbrake which needs an extra tug to get the car to hold on a pretty steep slope that it couldn't cope with a couple of days ago.
The new handbrake cables (Both sides) arrived today so that's the next job as soon as the weather picks up.
I found that laying the handbrake actuator on a vice with ths hook for the cable, face down and giving the rivetted end of the pivot pin a sharp tap with a hammer loosened it off and went as free as a bird after a squirt of Plus Gas flushed the dust away. Then coated with copper grease and worked it into the trigger pivot.
Regarding the self adjuster nut, yes it's free to turn but I think light oil or WD40 on the threads would be a better option. The top return spring fitted to the shoes is very strong and puts a fair amount of "Squeeze" on the nut. If the actual adjustment operation takes place when the shoes are expanded (Brakes applied), then the nut will not be squeezed against the tube and should turn easily.
Time will tell I suppose if the adjusters are working.

Once again-thanks to everyone who has taken the time to reply and throw their two pennorth in.......appreciated.

:tea:

i serviced my rear brakes last year, (110k miles, shoes still in good condition),
i just removed the drums,and shoes, cleaned and lubed the pivots and sliding parts,
when i reasembled i backed off the adjusters, and as i remember there is an adjuster hole at the back of the drum plate you can wind with a screwdriver blade, you adjust this to a point its just binding and then back it off, , job done,
my handbrake will lock the wheels at 20mph
hope this helps