1998 XeDi Freelander overrun

Hi folks, had an alarming incident today where the diesel freelander I was driving lost power dramatically up a hill- 10 seconds later, I pulled over looking like a member of the Red Arrows display team with clouds of brown smoke outta the exhaust. The engine started overrevving dramatically (yes, I DID have my foot on the clutch, not the throttle!!) and I hit the kill immediately, which didn't work so I managed to quickly stall it. It's had a lot of recent work (engine, transmission rebuilds) and I had noticed a tinny sound which I'd put down to a slightly loose exhaust bracket, although it may in hindsight have been a turbo whine.

Has anyone heard of/ experienced this in the older freelander diesel? Know of any possible causes or have any sage comments for avoiding this situation or things we should check before we try a restart? Cheers for your help, guys!

You mentioned a turbo whine, the XEDi is not fitted with a turbo (I own the same year and model). Is this your model or do you have the XETDi? I would imagine from your symptoms that your getting something going into the cylinders that will burn as a fuel for the engine. If it is fitted with a turbo is there any way that a turbo failure/partial failure can cause oil to be carried over into the intake system, I don't have a great deal of knowledge on these turbos. I would not attempt a restart untill this is rectified, if you turned off the key you turned off the fuel pump so something else must be entering the intake/cylinder to keep the engine running.

Hi, can't you help you with your problem (sorry) but I have read the thred saying your's doesn't have a turbo! aren't all Freelander diesels turbo? I'm 99.9% sure they are even the 98 Xedi..
Anyone confirm??

The old theory of overrevving was based around oil being pulled past the rings so I s'pose this might have been the case if we're turboless (vehicle is in disgrace at garage some miles away) but V5 says Xedi. I've heard it could be overfilling of the oil system or incorrect rings (possible due to the engine rebuild just before we bought it 30 odd miles ago) but I was wondering what else we should look for that might have been caused by the overrev rather than actually cause it. There must have been a powerful suction through the sump- there was only a bit of oil left on the dipstick but more fresh under the undertray which makes me think it might have 'imploded' the sump gasket and maybe backfed pressure into it... and if so, would it have vacuumed the whole blocks' oil system with implications for head gasket integrity?

BTW, thanks for your input, it's really valuable to me...

Turbo Girl said:

.................. overfilling of the oil system or incorrect rings (possible due to the engine rebuild just before we bought it 30 odd miles ago)

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i assume yer taking it back to the place you got it from carrying a baseball bat in one hand and a solicitors letters in the other ?

Nah, they're good folk, they've got it now & we're working on the problem- but I am checking the parts they've fitted- if its standard rings in a 100k engine I reckon there'll be no question that's it. Luckily they know I'm not your average girly motorist- despite the fact I can't say if it's got a turbo fitted...{:0

It sure was an interesting experience... if anyone reads this and has it happen to them, I'm told if going fast, turn off and put the brakes through the floor but don't depress clutch as engine load is your only control- if going slow/ stopped, select 4th & drop the clutch to stall. If it's an auto, only hope is to fire a co2 extinguisher into air intake or block intake with large solid object- if none to hand, stand well clear & watch the novel sight of an engine revving to oblivion! Apparently the crankcase pressurizes, misting the oil which when airborne, sucks through the crank breather into the air intake, creating a vicious circle- or it inhales via the turbo oil feed. Either way no diseasel needed as the vapourised oil has plenty of bang-ability and the longer it happens, the more vapourising & feeding creating uncontrolable overrevving. At least it's bloody rare & not a generic freelander weakness, eh chaps?

george99 said:

You mentioned a turbo whine, the XEDi is not fitted with a turbo (I own the same year and model). .

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George, Sorry mate, but only the very very early Xedi's weren't fitted with a turbo, only a coupla hundred if memory serves..99.9% of XEDi's WERE fitted with a turbo, as Liam sez..

TurboGirl, does sound like an oil ignition type problem, keep us posted as to how you get on chuck..

Cheers for the supportive msg, cashy!

I am guessing that you are aware that it could be the oil seals in the turbo. As the turbo is on the inlet (and exhaust) if the seals go then its very easy for the engine to suck oil from the turbo oil feed straight into the engine.

I would bet that its the turbo, sucking past piston rings is unusual as you need to have 2 rings pinched/stuck (usually by carbon deposits) and then the oil scrapers will still stop most oil being sucked in. I worked in a MoD oil test lab for 5 years and destroyed many engines , I can't remember a single one running on its oil via the rings. When the rings pinch/stick your crank pressure does go up but not by a huge amount but you will loose power very rapidly as diesel relies on compression for ignition.

But as you say its recently rebuilt it could possible have been built incorrectly.

Anyway hope the garage sort it quickly and you aren't out of pocket.

regards the turbos, i have a 1998 model and i'm positive there's no turbo fitted to mine (and i could've sworn there was a xedti model) but i think i might just have another look!

Ched, I'm wondering if an incorrect ring/s could create the oil mist which would then be a self fueling 'trigger' for the turbo- I certainly lost a great deal of power up an incline to the point where I commented to the passengers we weren't gonna make it to the top. I'd thought the act of removing load from the engine by depressing the clutch prior to stopping was the key to the runaway but could crankcase air/oil contamination have set up perfect conditions to instigate a turbo over revving situation?

I know I'm worrying this like a dog with a bone, but I wanna make sure the garage have checked every eventuality & implication...do you think stalling in 1st might have damaged the clutch and from the tests you did (fun sounding job, BTW, provided they supplied you with a nuclear bunker!) can you suggest any likely resultant probs & knock on effects or having stopped the overrev quickly, might we get away with a compression test & engine restart if that checks out ok?

We're getting the reciepts back today so I'll check if/ which rings were replaced & with what size, if the turbo was worked on in any way & if it actually has one (important point no.1!). Otherwise, they're waiting till Monday for the chief mechanic to have a look. I'll ask about Xedti's too, they're an independant LR specialist so might be able to fill us in. Happy weekend, lads!

I would say that incorrect rings are unlikely but possible. If you think about it pistons going down dont actually really suck much at all, in the days of vacuume gauges you would only get a couple of psi depression in the inlet manifold (on petrols) with a max depression on no throttle deceleration. Put on a compression test (on petrol) you will get about 200psi. So in diesel terms as you dont really have a throttle flap/valve in inlet manifold inlet so low psi suck into cylinders, even with a turbo you are only looking at 10psi max boost. But when the piston is on compression stroke you are looking at 3,000psi!!!!!!! So if its rings then the crankcase pressure will be very high and I would say it would blow the oil out, but nowadays the crank breather is fed back to inlet manifold (bad idea as diesels can destroy themselves). But you will usually see oil seeping out of rocker cover gaskets. So look for any oil seepage from engine gaskets.

I think your quick thinking on stalling the engine was the absolute best think you could have done, well done for fast thinking you probably saved the engine. As for the clutch, I think it will be fine.

I would say that you really need to know how the engine continued to run with ignition switch off before you restart.

I know what its like waiting to find out whats wrong, and the garage making you wait till monday is painful. But hopefully they will do a compression test and find the fault. Hopefully its rings as they replaced them originally they should repair them free.
If you hadnt said it had new rings a few miles ago I would say it 90% turbo, but with rings being replaced does suggest problem is rings related.

Reason I bought a freelander over a x-trail was that x-trails have a reputation for turbos failing and consuming all their oil and destroying engine. Big bills! OK freelanders have faults but they dont tend to blow up engines, yes IRD and VCU but they are so much cheaper than x-trail engines.

Job was good fun, but not as fun as it might sound. Subsequent job testing jet engines more fun! Worked on Eurofigher engines for about 3 years and the new aircraft carrier turbines for 3 years.
Now have very different job. See signature

Sorry for long post again, its a scouser type thing cant stop talking.

Well bugger me - after a quick check (don't know why I didn't look when i bought it) I found a turbo!!!!

Further to the posts about rings. If your rings go it will pressurise your crankcase but you would also lose compression as the rings are no longer providing a gas seal between the piston and liner. What you describe sounds like a sudden failure and, in the engines that i have worked on and examples sent to me (I am a diesel engine instructor for the MOD so have seen lots of examples of ring failures) a sudden failure of the rings won't cause run on but normally catastrophic failure of the piston assembly. A gradual wear down won't be as noticeable. If you had a sudden failure of the turbo this would cause a sudden rush of (hot) oil into the intake and give the symtpoms you describe.

Another thing to note, if the engine was running on on all cylinders (ie all pots were firing) it would probably also be the turbo as this is common to all cylinders. If the engine was running on but not all cylinders were firing then it would not be the turbo as all cyclinders were not affected.

Easy done George, half the time I forgot I'd got an engine..

Folks, reading all the posts again, it is looking more like the turdo's gone, Turbogal, if it is, there's a new Garrett on't fleabay at the mo..LANDROVER FREELANDER DIESEL TURBO L SERIES ROVER ENGINE on eBay, also, Land Rover, Car Parts, Cars, Parts Vehicles (end time 24-May-08 16:02:50 BST)

I'll let the garage know about the turbo on ebay- or perhaps they'll fit a new LR supplied one....in my dreams! There was no real misfiring like I'd lost cylinders- just lack of compression across the board for perhaps 5 seconds before the overrev. I kinda wish we had it here to strip it down & analyse ourselves but I'm thinking that's the least of their liability- and I'll never pick up a diseasel without checking the oil hasn't been overfilled just incase it was that!

George, it's a great relief to me that I'm not the only one who missed the 'bit on the side'....and it's very enlightening having the benefit of y'alls knowledge. Buy yourselves a virtual beer on me!

Had this on a 300 series Discovery, ended up just the head gasket and Turbo seals, well done on your stall, I also remember many years ago seeing the effects on a large bus engine that was not stalled (more or less all pistons and bores nackered.

Regards Dutch RR

Well, it does have a turbo but the shaft now has a good 25-30mm play in it which I guessing is not healthy at turbo rpms! It ingested most of its' oil so not surprisingly, the dipstick shows only a drop at the bottom- no way to prove fault there then.

To be honest, they're not usually the type who'd screw things up like overfilling oil....I've dealt with them for around 15 years.... maybe the previous owner had the fault before he took the vehicle to them with the catastrophic head prob (apparently the valves had smashed every tappet). It was skimmed & all new parts on head only. I've asked them to do a compression test.

We bought it off the previous owner, technically, not them- so if we can get the test & turbo refitted (not supplied) as goodwill, I'm thinking that would be the best we can hope for....

1st - yes XEDI's have a turbo.
2nd - yes this sounds like "screaming death" where the oil seals in yer turbo go "pop" and the landy starts drinking the contents of the sump.

not good

We managed to get a 2nd hand turbo for £100 (ebay) and it's being fitted at the moment-comp test results expected shortly too... I'm lookin' forward to the happy ending of this one, hope theres not another chapter to add!

Any news? Is it all sorted?