Classic 1993 200TDi - Gear box or clutch?

Hi All,

I have recently put my old range rover back on the road. I have the issue of a rattle from the gear box
(LT77) when the car is in neutral. The rattle goes away when I depress the clutch. After a few miles it is increasingly difficult to engage the gears and I am unable to get it into 4th gear at all. 4th gear started to be problematic but is now completely out of action. It never bothered me too much as I found it not too much trouble to go from 3rd to 5th. When the other gears became a problem I took it to my local garage and after listening to the noise/rattle immediately told my the gear box is kaput. I'm not yet convinced it is the gear box and after having a look around on LandyZone I notice some old threads suggesting it could be a thrust bearing problem. I quote this from a post from 2006:

http://www.ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/faq.html

"My gearbox rattles on idle, in neutral, with the clutch up This is very common on both the 200 and the 300 TDi engined vehicles. The clutch friction plate has a ring of springs, which are there to soften the knock of the diesel engine to stop it being transmitted to the driveline. Often especially with a new clutch these springs are quite tight and a lot of the engine knock goes through to the gearbox and makes the gears "chatter" together when the box is in neutral and the clutch up, it goes when the clutch is depressed. This can sound quite bad and does vary from car to car but is not detrimental to the life of the gearbox and we view it as an undesirable characteristic of the LT 77 and R 380 as opposed to a fault with either the gearbox or the clutch."

As you can see at the end of the quote they state that this may not be a fault with either the gearbox or the clutch, however, something is obviously wrong with mine as engaging the gears is temperamental and 4th is non existent.

I guess the question I'm asking is has anybody else had the same issue as me where a new clutch fixed the problem?

Well, after a full gearbox rebuild and new clutch, my 200 TDI with LT77 suffered the same rattles until the clutch was depressed, so I think what Ashcrofts are saying is correct.

Are you sure that the gear selection issue isn't related to clutch hydraulics? Despite using Delphi slave cylinders, I seem to get through them quite regularly, and that's with a new master cylinder and clean fluid.

Britcyclerider said:

Well, after a full gearbox rebuild and new clutch, my 200 TDI with LT77 suffered the same rattles until the clutch was depressed, so I think what Ashcrofts are saying is correct.

Are you sure that the gear selection issue isn't related to clutch hydraulics? Despite using Delphi slave cylinders, I seem to get through them quite regularly, and that's with a new master cylinder and clean fluid.

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Thanks. No, I'm not sure if it's a hydraulics issue but it is something I will definitely investigate. I'm an amateur mechanic and I'm not overly familiar with this sort of thing so I'm currently looking and learning about this sort of shenanigans and looking for solutions. I'm currently thinking of the thrust bearing so I'm thinking of having a stab at changing that and the clutch. I've had the car for about 12 years now, it apparently had a gearbox rebuild when the previous, previous owner had it but I guess that doesn't mean too much 15 odd years down the line, I've never had any issues with the gears but everything's gotta wear out sometime Thanks again. Hopefully, if I get the chance, I'll investigate the hydraulics side of things tomorrow.

Drop some gear oil & see if its full of metal, have you tried double clutching 4th.
My new clutch rattled after fitting feckn borg & beck.

When its running lay underneath & get a screw driver, hold it on the bell housing an put your
ear onto the handle you will be able to hear through the driver, do the same on the gearbox
casing. You may be able to pin point the rattle.

kevstar said:

Drop some gear oil & see if its full of metal, have you tried double clutching 4th.
My new clutch rattled after fitting feckn borg & beck.

When its running lay underneath & get a screw driver, hold it on the bell housing an put your
ear onto the handle you will be able to hear through the driver, do the same on the gearbox
casing. You may be able to pin point the rattle.

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I have tried double clutching it but to no avail. I did check the gear oil and didn't notice any metal - but then again, I wasn't looking for it. I'll have another look-see. There's no way I have the courage to crawl under that thing with the engine running. I'd rather crawl under a washing machine on full spin with its transport bolts still in. Besides, the last time I was under that car (to check the gear oil) I drove over my phone...

I am concerned that it will not go into 4th at all.

Clamjamphrie said:

I have tried double clutching it but to no avail. I did check the gear oil and didn't notice any metal - but then again, I wasn't looking for it. I'll have another look-see. There's no way I have the courage to crawl under that thing with the engine running. I'd rather crawl under a washing machine on full spin with its transport bolts still in. Besides, the last time I was under that car (to check the gear oil) I drove over my phone...

I am concerned that it will not go into 4th at all.

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Gear oil what type is in it. No point investigating anything if its that bad at rattling
its fucked pull the box & clutch out of it.

If it goes in all the other gears okay I'm not sure why you think it's a clutch release bearing issue?
I have had a discovery 200 TDI before problems with changing gear when it was hot this I traced to the ball in the top of the box running dry and binding up as it got warm
This was fixed from in the comfort of the cab by moving everything applying grease and reassembling

kevstar said:

Gear oil what type is in it. No point investigating anything if its that bad at rattling
its fucked pull the box & clutch out of it.

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Ha! Ok, maybe I over exaggerated the rattling

To be honest (and why would I not be) I don't know what gear oil has been put in. Up until recently I have always worked from home so the car wouldn't get used that much. Every couple of years I would pop it up the garage and ask them to grease my nipples etc. I've been using it a lot more recently due to job change but prior to that it had been sat around on my driveway, under cover, not doing a lot. I really need to start paying attention to the finer details.

lynall said:

If it goes in all the other gears okay I'm not sure why you think it's a clutch release bearing issue?
I have had a discovery 200 TDI before problems with changing gear when it was hot this I traced to the ball in the top of the box running dry and binding up as it got warm
This was fixed from in the comfort of the cab by moving everything applying grease and reassembling

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Now that sounds like my type of mechanics. Regarding the clutch release bearing, I'm currently educating myself on what goes on below and it was one of the things that popped up and had some similarities with my issue. Everyday is a school day at the moment. Thanks for the tip though, I'm planning to have a look at things this afternoon so will have a poke about then.

lynall said:

If it goes in all the other gears okay I'm not sure why you think it's a clutch release bearing issue?
I have had a discovery 200 TDI before problems with changing gear when it was hot this I traced to the ball in the top of the box running dry and binding up as it got warm
This was fixed from in the comfort of the cab by moving everything applying grease and reassembling

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Exactly, if it selects all the other gears no problem then it isn’t a hydraulic problem or thrust problem, gearbox out and strip and replacement clutch while it’s out, sometimes you have to bite the bullet

Europa486 said:

Exactly, if it selects all the other gears no problem then it isn’t a hydraulic problem or thrust problem, gearbox out and strip and replacement clutch while it’s out, sometimes you have to bite the bullet

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Yes, you are most probably correct. I wouldn't say the other gears are fine, at times I am unable or have great difficulty to engage any. In my head I have accepted the prospect of a new gearbox but would like to explore other possibilities before taking the plunge. As I mentioned, this is very much out of my comfort zone but it's been interesting educating myself on what goes on down below. Yours and other suggestions have been more than helpful. Thanks

Given the age of the car, I'm not sure if it would have a DMF, but if it has, they can rattle when they fail, the rattle stops when the clutch is pressed and a failed DMF can make gear shifts difficult. Others will know if your car has a DMF.

Datatek said:

Given the age of the car, I'm not sure if it would have a DMF, but if it has, they can rattle when they fail, the rattle stops when the clutch is pressed and a failed DMF can make gear shifts difficult. Others will know if your car has a DMF.

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No DMF until TD5, first time I had ever seen one was on my td5 disco.

Clamjamphrie said:

Yes, you are most probably correct. I wouldn't say the other gears are fine, at times I am unable or have great difficulty to engage any. In my head I have accepted the prospect of a new gearbox but would like to explore other possibilities before taking the plunge. As I mentioned, this is very much out of my comfort zone but it's been interesting educating myself on what goes on down below. Yours and other suggestions have been more than helpful. Thanks

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Cheap USB boroscope up the flywheel housing drain hole to see if release bearing is moving okay and fork is not on its way out.

Dont forget lt77 box has a drain bung AND larger one further back, this contains the plastic mesh filter, this will give you an idea whats going on, loads of grey sludge = no worries as that is normal, not right but normal, shiny metal shards = get your wallet out!

If you post up your approx area, someone may came and take a look for you, not your postcode just nearest large town.

Might be worth a read:
www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/cant-select-2nd-4th-or-reverse-gear.67549/
Lrcat

Ratae said:

Might be worth a read:
www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/cant-select-2nd-4th-or-reverse-gear.67549/
Lrcat

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Ooo, that was worth a read. I'm going to look into that! Thank you.

lynall said:

Cheap USB boroscope up the flywheel housing drain hole to see if release bearing is moving okay and fork is not on its way out.

Dont forget lt77 box has a drain bung AND larger one further back, this contains the plastic mesh filter, this will give you an idea whats going on, loads of grey sludge = no worries as that is normal, not right but normal, shiny metal shards = get your wallet out!

If you post up your approx area, someone may came and take a look for you, not your postcode just nearest large town.

Click to expand...

I'm about 20 minutes or so south of Bristol in the Mendips. I'm going to have a crawl underneath and check the gear oil for shards, well, I was going to but its the good lady wife's birthday today so I doubt if I'll get away with it.

Well, I did get a chance to remove the top of the gearbox in hope of finding a broken bit of plastic that would cure all my problems but unfortunately, nothing seemed obviously amiss. I did check the oil for bits of metal but none was noticed.

Anyway, it was an interesting exercise and something I've not done before. I did manage to drop a collar of one of the bolts into the gearbox but fortunately I managed to fish it out. I also noticed that after putting it back together that the gear lever plunge pin thingy had fallen out. Anyway, nothing seemed amiss but I couldn't get into 4th.

I've have posted a video below. This is after a 15 minute drive but as you can see at the end of the video reverse is just not having it. At 3 seconds I push the clutch in and release it on 10 seconds. You can hear the rattle...

Unfortunately, the it looks like the timing chain needs some work on the L322 so that's blown any funds I would have to pay somebody to fit a new gearbox so I may order one and have a go at doing it on the driveway. I have had a look about but have been unable to find a video online of the process of removing and fitting a gear box on a 93 200TDi. Does anybody know if there is a video or any literature concerning this and point me in it's direction?

Clamjamphrie said:

Well, I did get a chance to remove the top of the gearbox in hope of finding a broken bit of plastic that would cure all my problems but unfortunately, nothing seemed obviously amiss. I did check the oil for bits of metal but none was noticed.

Anyway, it was an interesting exercise and something I've not done before. I did manage to drop a collar of one of the bolts into the gearbox but fortunately I managed to fish it out. I also noticed that after putting it back together that the gear lever plunge pin thingy had fallen out. Anyway, nothing seemed amiss but I couldn't get into 4th.

I've have posted a video below. This is after a 15 minute drive but as you can see at the end of the video reverse is just not having it. At 3 seconds I push the clutch in and release it on 10 seconds. You can hear the rattle...

Unfortunately, the it looks like the timing chain needs some work on the L322 so that's blown any funds I would have to pay somebody to fit a new gearbox so I may order one and have a go at doing it on the driveway. I have had a look about but have been unable to find a video online of the process of removing and fitting a gear box on a 93 200TDi. Does anybody know if there is a video or any literature concerning this and point me in it's direction?



View attachment 270897 View attachment 270898

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I'd put my money on the clutch. Either way they are both coming out!!