mystery
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Series 2 1970, Series IIA 88, Charging Mystery
- Thread starter OldV8
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ExMil109
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Hi OldV8,
It does sound like your 4TR has died and at £30 each it's probably not a good idea to keep replacing it without further investigation!
3A field current doesn't sound excessive to me (unless someone can advise otherwise?) and the regulator did seem to be working if you had a steady 14V charge. So it's not clear to me why the 4TR overheated. It's possible the insulation on the field windings is breaking down (hence the 110V test in the workshop manual) but I'd expect that to produce a high field current. Did you measure the current into the F+ terminal, or between the F- terminal and the 4TR? If there's a leakage to earth inside the alternator, the measurements would be different.
I'm also a bit puzzled by your charge warning light. If you don't have a 3AW then I don't see how it works... With the 11AC setup it's not essential to have a charge light (unlike the ACR alternators, where the light is essential to the charging process) but I'm curious to know how it's connected, in case you have some more "non-standard" wiring...
@mystery, I think there should be a connection on your diagram between the ammeter and the ignition/light switch?
It does sound like your 4TR has died and at £30 each it's probably not a good idea to keep replacing it without further investigation!
3A field current doesn't sound excessive to me (unless someone can advise otherwise?) and the regulator did seem to be working if you had a steady 14V charge. So it's not clear to me why the 4TR overheated. It's possible the insulation on the field windings is breaking down (hence the 110V test in the workshop manual) but I'd expect that to produce a high field current. Did you measure the current into the F+ terminal, or between the F- terminal and the 4TR? If there's a leakage to earth inside the alternator, the measurements would be different.
I'm also a bit puzzled by your charge warning light. If you don't have a 3AW then I don't see how it works... With the 11AC setup it's not essential to have a charge light (unlike the ACR alternators, where the light is essential to the charging process) but I'm curious to know how it's connected, in case you have some more "non-standard" wiring...
@mystery, I think there should be a connection on your diagram between the ammeter and the ignition/light switch?
Hi Exmil109,
Thanks very much for your thoughts.
There was a slight difference between the readings on the F+ and F- leads. Circa 0.2A lower on the F-.
I also measured the resistance across the ends (disconnected from the regulator) of the F+ and F- leads and it was 7 Ohms. A bit more than the ideal 3.8 Ohms across the slip rings, but then the brushes are in the way?
I don't have a charge warning light. Just the voltmeter which measures the voltage across the battery - not connected to the charging system otherwise. Perhaps Land Rover's attempt to get rid of the 3AW! I think there is a bit of confusion with 'mystery' that arose from the term 'Ignition warning light' in his first diagram. I do have a light that comes on when the ignition is turned on, but it is a combined Ign/Oil Pressure light - also not connected to the charging system (has never come on while the engine is running (charging or not). I think the reference to ignition is purely that it comes on when the ignition is turned on.
Thanks very much for your thoughts.
There was a slight difference between the readings on the F+ and F- leads. Circa 0.2A lower on the F-.
I also measured the resistance across the ends (disconnected from the regulator) of the F+ and F- leads and it was 7 Ohms. A bit more than the ideal 3.8 Ohms across the slip rings, but then the brushes are in the way?
I don't have a charge warning light. Just the voltmeter which measures the voltage across the battery - not connected to the charging system otherwise. Perhaps Land Rover's attempt to get rid of the 3AW! I think there is a bit of confusion with 'mystery' that arose from the term 'Ignition warning light' in his first diagram. I do have a light that comes on when the ignition is turned on, but it is a combined Ign/Oil Pressure light - also not connected to the charging system (has never come on while the engine is running (charging or not). I think the reference to ignition is purely that it comes on when the ignition is turned on.
mystery
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Hi Exmil109 the drawing was from the series 2 site from a few years back as for the connection between ammeter and ignition lighting switch it's the same as my series 1 ,the ignition warning lamp /charge warning lamp /battery warning lamp / generator charge lamp /dynamo charge lamp is the indication that the system is generating a voltage to charge you battery be it alternator,dynamo
Hi all,
Just to clarify, I don't have an ammeter. Also there is no connection to AL, or the relay, or the regulator which could feed a charge warning/measuring device. It seems I have a rare setup. And no wiring diagram exists for it!
(wish I had an electro-mechanical regulator like the RF95 though, much tougher!).
Hi mystery,
This one talks about the alternative of using an oil pressure switch for the ignition light, rather than the AL connection and the 3AW. If it helps.
https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/3aw-ign-warning-light-control-wiring/355332/10
This one talks about the alternative of using an oil pressure switch for the ignition light, rather than the AL connection and the 3AW. If it helps.
https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/3aw-ign-warning-light-control-wiring/355332/10
mystery
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it would be quicker and cheaper to fit a 16 ACR,17 ACR unless you are prone to counting rivets
Hi mystery,
That is obviously what Land Rover decided shortly after they built mine!
But nearly everyone else decided to buy a Toyota Land Cruiser instead!
However, I quite like their experiment with the voltmeter, to simplify the system. And if the 11AC was good enough for the e-type, then it can't be all bad!?
That is obviously what Land Rover decided shortly after they built mine!
But nearly everyone else decided to buy a Toyota Land Cruiser instead!
However, I quite like their experiment with the voltmeter, to simplify the system. And if the 11AC was good enough for the e-type, then it can't be all bad!?
mystery
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If you decide to keep the 11AC you may have to source some parts that are not cheap locus Chinese parts very hard these days ,some good copies but manufactured with cheap materials and anything with bearing in
god forbid just repaired Vax carpet cleaner motor discontinued by Vax making it obsolete can see why Chinese motor fitted with poor quality bearing .
in case you change your mind
god forbid just repaired Vax carpet cleaner motor discontinued by Vax making it obsolete can see why Chinese motor fitted with poor quality bearing .
in case you change your mind
mystery
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think you find that the EU killed of most of the British parts company's whilst protecting there own
most parts these days are Chinese (Locus)Indian(Sh*tpart) or eastern block, cheap labour costs, green workers, poor materials but European led prices and of course the fake items thrown in .I am fitting 16 ACR to my series 1 which is fitted with a series 2 diesel engine (interlink belt just for alignment and length) would not like to say where the part was made certainly not Birmingham
TRW bought the Lucas and Girling brand names Canadian company that manufacture to a high standard.
According to Wiki now owned by ZF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Industries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_Friedrichshafen
According to Wiki now owned by ZF
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucas_Industries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZF_Friedrichshafen
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ExMil109
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Hi OldV8,
In theory any of the Lucas generator regulators (e.g. RB340, RB106) will drive a simple alternator like the 22AC. You don't need any of the cut-out and current limiting functions, just the basic voltage regulation using the D, F and E terminals.
However, if the 22AC is drawing a lot of field current, even a mechanical regulator will eventually burn its contacts (and I'm not sure if the replacement RB340-like regulators you can find now actually have contacts, or are fully electronic). But if you have an old-school regulator with contacts, it's worth a try! Is the Land Cruiser one completely dead or can it be persuaded?
Alternatively, as mystery said, replacing the lot with a 17ACR would be the quick solution...
OK, that clears up that question!
Well, you could use an old-school regulator if you want to. I'm wondering if you have a problem with the 22AC alternator where it's drawing enough field current to overload the 4TR but still works with the tough old electro-mechanical regulators - that might explain why a previous owner installed the one from a Land Cruiser?
In theory any of the Lucas generator regulators (e.g. RB340, RB106) will drive a simple alternator like the 22AC. You don't need any of the cut-out and current limiting functions, just the basic voltage regulation using the D, F and E terminals.
However, if the 22AC is drawing a lot of field current, even a mechanical regulator will eventually burn its contacts (and I'm not sure if the replacement RB340-like regulators you can find now actually have contacts, or are fully electronic). But if you have an old-school regulator with contacts, it's worth a try! Is the Land Cruiser one completely dead or can it be persuaded?
Alternatively, as mystery said, replacing the lot with a 17ACR would be the quick solution...
Hi Exmil109,
You could well be right about the previous change to the Land Cruiser regulator - the search for something more robust! Selling my Series 2A and buying an FJ45 is always an option!
And of course the path 'mystery' has taken is also an option. But he has lost the original engine, and therefore arguably it doesn't really matter that he has a Series 1, a Series 2 engine, and a Series 3 alternator (with integrated Chinese regulator and charge indicator!).
I think it is worth keeping (or rather reverting to) the original setup, in my case - where the engine and alternator are original. The fact that mine is from a short period of 11ACs is posibly a good thing. Land Rover were at least trying to improve the design at that time (before they decided to cheapen it for Series 3). Also, I think the fact that the 11AC system was used by Jaguar, Aston Martin etc. means that it is possible to reach the point where it is relaible - there are a lot of people out there today trying to keep these cars on the road. And due to the demand for quality components, they do exist, if one can find them!
I will get the alternator thoroughly checked as the next step.
You could well be right about the previous change to the Land Cruiser regulator - the search for something more robust! Selling my Series 2A and buying an FJ45 is always an option!
And of course the path 'mystery' has taken is also an option. But he has lost the original engine, and therefore arguably it doesn't really matter that he has a Series 1, a Series 2 engine, and a Series 3 alternator (with integrated Chinese regulator and charge indicator!).
I think it is worth keeping (or rather reverting to) the original setup, in my case - where the engine and alternator are original. The fact that mine is from a short period of 11ACs is posibly a good thing. Land Rover were at least trying to improve the design at that time (before they decided to cheapen it for Series 3). Also, I think the fact that the 11AC system was used by Jaguar, Aston Martin etc. means that it is possible to reach the point where it is relaible - there are a lot of people out there today trying to keep these cars on the road. And due to the demand for quality components, they do exist, if one can find them!
I will get the alternator thoroughly checked as the next step.
Hi Exmil109,
I meant to thank you for the latest wiring diagram. I think my Japanese regulator was wired something like that. If all else fails I will revert to that, although I will have to find another Japanese one, mine is definitely shot.
I had thought that they had earthed the F+ve lead and switched the polarity. But I am beginning to wonder if the diagram I am working to is 'wrong' I read somewhere that it is best to have F+ve on the inner slip ring because it is moving more slowly across the brush, and therefore wearing less. Do you think there is any truth in that?
I meant to thank you for the latest wiring diagram. I think my Japanese regulator was wired something like that. If all else fails I will revert to that, although I will have to find another Japanese one, mine is definitely shot.
I had thought that they had earthed the F+ve lead and switched the polarity. But I am beginning to wonder if the diagram I am working to is 'wrong' I read somewhere that it is best to have F+ve on the inner slip ring because it is moving more slowly across the brush, and therefore wearing less. Do you think there is any truth in that?
Hi Exmil109 & rob1miles,
Good news! The replacement 4TR (PCB type) turned up, and seems to be working.
After warming up I ran it at about 2000rpm (engine) for 10 mins, and it was steady.
6.5A on the +ve alternator output
0.6A on the F-ve lead
0.35A on the F+ve lead
14.4v across the battery
Ran it for another 30 mins with everything on - headlights, heater fan etc.
21A on the +ve alternator output
1.45A on the F-ve lead
0.85A on the F+ve lead
14.8v across the battery
There is still that difference between the field coild leads. But it seems to be working (so far!).
Thanks again, both of you, for all your help.
Good news! The replacement 4TR (PCB type) turned up, and seems to be working.
After warming up I ran it at about 2000rpm (engine) for 10 mins, and it was steady.
6.5A on the +ve alternator output
0.6A on the F-ve lead
0.35A on the F+ve lead
14.4v across the battery
Ran it for another 30 mins with everything on - headlights, heater fan etc.
21A on the +ve alternator output
1.45A on the F-ve lead
0.85A on the F+ve lead
14.8v across the battery
There is still that difference between the field coild leads. But it seems to be working (so far!).
Thanks again, both of you, for all your help.
rob1miles
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I'm pleased to have been of some help. So is it that the regulator failed and the first replacement was either faulty of got damaged? Possibly by the non-original set up jury rigged by a previous owner to use the Japanese islolator relay? Always safe to blame the PO. Did you change the alternator brushes? It may be worth doing as you don't want another failure and I suspect they too are getting hard to find.
ExMil109
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Good news indeed!
Yes, it's strange that the readings to and from the field are different, but if it can deliver 21A for 30 min I'd say it's working ok.
One thought: if the field brushes are well worn (and they might be after 50-odd years) there might be a build-up of carbon in the brush box that leaks some current to earth? I've not seen that myself, but it might explain the readings.
Fingers crossed it keeps working!
Yes, it's strange that the readings to and from the field are different, but if it can deliver 21A for 30 min I'd say it's working ok.
One thought: if the field brushes are well worn (and they might be after 50-odd years) there might be a build-up of carbon in the brush box that leaks some current to earth? I've not seen that myself, but it might explain the readings.
Fingers crossed it keeps working!
Hi rob1miles,
This is my third regulator! I think the first one (original transistor type) could easily have got damaged while the wiring was still in a mess, hadn't discovered the earthing (jury style) of one of the field coil leads by that time. Second one (PCB type) I think was faulty - I had sorted the wiring by that time, and it did work for a few minutes, before burning out. The third (replacement by suppliers for the second one) (PCB type, I think) is actually a bit different to the one it replaced - it has a metal backplate, rather than a plastic one, and consequently at least looks better. Fault identification has certainly been difficult with so many suspects!
I changed the brushes at the outset (before I started this post). My initial suspect!
This is my third regulator! I think the first one (original transistor type) could easily have got damaged while the wiring was still in a mess, hadn't discovered the earthing (jury style) of one of the field coil leads by that time. Second one (PCB type) I think was faulty - I had sorted the wiring by that time, and it did work for a few minutes, before burning out. The third (replacement by suppliers for the second one) (PCB type, I think) is actually a bit different to the one it replaced - it has a metal backplate, rather than a plastic one, and consequently at least looks better. Fault identification has certainly been difficult with so many suspects!
I changed the brushes at the outset (before I started this post). My initial suspect!
