Freelander 1 L series Diesel stuck in cold start mode

[Stuart Jackson]

hi, I have had my Freelander 1 since last December and I still haven't managed to get it on the road. I bought it with a failed head gasket which was easily fixed. The engine reluctantly starts but the engine sounds very sweet. My problem is that it remains in cold start mode even when the engine is warmed up.

I had to replace the throttle potentiometer with a new unit ( nearly cost me as much as the car did). Have also replaced the MAF, air Temp switch and water temperature switch. I have also had the ecu checked out via trying a proven exchange unit.

All this has failed to change anything. This is looking like it might be the first car to ever beat me. Any ideas?

 

[GrumpyGel]

Hey! My brother and his family have just moved to Mickleton

How do you know it is in "cold start mode"?

If it is in a "cold start mode" - there presumably can only be 1 reason - the ECU thinks the coolant temperature is cold. I love my L Series - but it never goes wrong - so I've never looked at the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor - but I know on the K Series there are 2 separate sensors - 1 for the ECU and another for the Temp guage on the dash. If there are 2 - are you sure you have changed the correct 1?

 

[Stuart Jackson]

Sorry,, I wasn't very clear. when the engine starts it runs at 1200 rpm and won't drop down to the normal 800/900 rpm. Also if you snap the throttle open the engine speed doesn't increase. Also if you slowly press the accelerator the engine revs very fast ( almost like an on /off switch). I've had two Rover 25's with the L series engine which is why I was attracted to this Freelander 1 but this one is really throwing me.
Mickleton is a great place, the start of the Cotswols yet close enough to civilisation, I've lived here 19 years so I'm almost accepted. I hope your brother likes it.

 

[GrumpyGel]

I think you need to put it on a diag machine and check out real time throttle position and coolant temps.

Something is telling me though that this is a fuel pump issue.

 

[Joe_H]

I think you need to put it on a diag machine and check out real time throttle position and coolant temps.

Something is telling me though that this is a fuel pump issue.

Just seen this one and I am shocked Grumpy. - an L series- with a problem ? Noooooooooooo.... It has been butchered by a PO is the only excuse.
I would also agree 100% re fuel pump. Sounds like the closed loop feedback is not working correctly or the timing has been well botched.

Also, how the hell do you blow a head gasket on an L series ????

I personally would be EXTREMELY cautious of buying an L series with such a failure. - well, I simply would NOT buy one with such a failure.

Check all the wiring around the fuel pump and make sure it has not got the EVRY mod fitted - or more likely - removed - leaving a set of manky wiring. (OP -if you don't know what the EVRY mod is - then search on it on here)

Also, I presume you removed the HPFP pump when replacing the head ? you may already know this ... but. you have to remember that the pump removal and refit has to be done in a specific way. The pump drive pulley on the freelander L is NOT keyed to the pump shaft !. you have a bolt on the side of the pump with a spacer underneath it. You HAVE to set the timing up with the crank and cam pins in place, then loosen the HPFP drive shaft lock bolt on the pump body enough to remove the spacer, then tighten the bolt down as per manual to lock the pump shaft in place - only then can you remove the drive pulley and remove the pump. Failure to do so will result in a pump that you cannot re-time without specialist equipment (well - a dial gauge and a few home made tools and a damn good understanding of the HP output stage and cam plate...)
Same with a replacement pump - it HAS to be removed in the same way with the engine timed and pinned and the pump shaft lock in place. MANY breakers will not do this so you have been warned. IF you removed the pump when you did the head gasket and did not follow the above to the letter then therein lies your issue.!!!!!!!!. A mistimed pump can cause a multitude of issues.

It is worth pop punching both the pulley and the pump shaft end for ref marks when removing the pump AND using the locking pins and shaft lock on the pump body is mandatory

Anyway that is probably a last resort after getting everything checked out on a QUALITY diagnostic setup.

You may well have bought a lemon - jeeez - an L series with an engine fault ???

 

[Joe_H]

Hey! My brother and his family have just moved to Mickleton

How do you know it is in "cold start mode"?

If it is in a "cold start mode" - there presumably can only be 1 reason - the ECU thinks the coolant temperature is cold. I love my L Series - but it never goes wrong - so I've never looked at the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor - but I know on the K Series there are 2 separate sensors - 1 for the ECU and another for the Temp guage on the dash. If there are 2 - are you sure you have changed the correct 1?

Hi GG,
Ref the CTS, it only uses a the -20c fail-safe if CTS is ker-nackered (but for injection timing only) and the timing is limited with the timing solenoid as it will end stop. In other words it can only go so far. If the timing is end stopped the amber engine warning can briefly illuminate as well.
For injection quantity, it uses the fuel temperature sensor which is built into the HPFP. so the worst case should be a slight loss of power and a bit of diesel knock . It won;t effect the performance too much in reality and certainly not cause the issues above.
You are correct re the senders - as always -there are two senders - one is for the ECU and is located on the oil cooler / thermostat housing body. The gauge sender is on the small outlet elbow on the front of the block.

But, again, the main CTS would definitely not cause those issues.

I wonder if the HGF was due to incorrect pump timing in the first place ! - this can certainly cause HGF.
This motor sounds does sound more like a bit of a lemon .... - one can only hope a visible issue is there with the HPFP wiring but somehow I doubt it

 

[Stuart Jackson]

Firstly thanks for the guidance, that's my Saturday booked up. I knew I was taking a risk but it wasn't big money. I also am a massive fan of the L series so it will be brought back to life ( like some magestic African animal) ok, a bit over dramatic.

So when I bought it, other than it loosing all cooling water, the engine was running normal and well. The head gasket was replaced along with both of the timing belts. The diesel pump didn't need removing and I'm confident the belts were changed correctly. My father in law helped and he's a life long professional mechanic.

I will check out everything else the weekend and get back to you.

 

[Joe_H]

Firstly thanks for the guidance, that's my Saturday booked up. I knew I was taking a risk but it wasn't big money. I also am a massive fan of the L series so it will be brought back to life ( like some magestic African animal) ok, a bit over dramatic.

So when I bought it, other than it loosing all cooling water, the engine was running normal and well. The head gasket was replaced along with both of the timing belts. The diesel pump didn't need removing and I'm confident the belts were changed correctly. My father in law helped and he's a life long professional mechanic.

I will check out everything else the weekend and get back to you.

No worries, ask your dad in law if he definitely used BOTH pins when timing it - the HPFP pulley pin and the crank pin and confirm the pump pulley bolt was at no time loosened in any way - which also obviously means that at no time was the Pulley ever removed from the HPFP. all the above points re BOTH pins and the Pulley on the Pump are extremely important.

Also, why did you change the TPS ?

 

[MacGyver]

L series head failure is very common. A combination of age, Oat ratio being wrong and sometimes when people up the boost to much.

I can think of less than half the L series owned by my friends who haven't had the problem.

And that on both freelander / 200 and the 25 type

 

[Joe_H]

L series head failure is very common. A combination of age, Oat ratio being wrong and sometimes when people up the boost to much.

I can think of less than half the L series owned by my friends who haven't had the problem.

And that on both freelander / 200 and the 25 type

Cough... BS - Cough....

..

You must have some very careless, extremely unlucky or minimal amount of friends - to say the least.....

 

[GrumpyGel]

If you know someone who has a diag machine that works on Freelander L Series - I think a few pints should be heading his way so you can borrow it for the weekend I'll message my brother, but I don't think he'll be able to help.

A reluctance to start does sound like the timing (belt) is slightly out - they are synonymous. I can't think why the belts would give your idling issues though.

I've been doing a bit of Googling and found some interesting stuff I didn't know before

Evidently 1,250 RPM is the default idle speed the ECU adopts not just for cold idle, but also when it believes there is a problem with the TPS. Sounds very similar to your problem!

Digging further though, it also appears that a faulty brake switch can put the ECU into an override for the TPS or corrupt the TPS signal in some way. Faulty brake switches are very common!!!

This thread describes it....

http://forums.mg-rover.org/land-rover-176/freelander-l-series-2-0-di-ralenti-problems-436630/

That thread does not give a final conclusion to a working engine, but implies the ECU was cooked. Without a final working car though we can not tell if that was true.

Brake switch signals and faulty brake lights and wiring do appear to be a problem that causes L Series to stick to 1,250rpm, at least on Rover cars. I would imagine this must apply to Freelander as well as parts come from the same bins and the ECUs are very similar - I watched a video last week of a fella unplugging the ECU from his Rover 620 and replacing it with a Freelander one and driving off.

http://www.roverdiesel.co.uk/index.php/menucommonfailures/87-l-series-faults

So you could be set on checking all the wiring and continuity of the throttle and brake switch/light wiring. However, presumably what you need to know is what the ECU is reading for these values. Once again - this comes back to diags. I'm pretty confident that any diag box will give you what the ECU is reading for the TPS - but will it give you a reading for the brake being raised? Not sure. Therefore an alternative may be to take a multimeter to the throttle and brake pins on the ECU? I don't know if this is possible. Anyone with help?

I would, as suggested, also check the wiring to the fuel pump. Looking at Rave most of these a PWM not analog, so I presume you'll need an osiliscope rather than multimeter if you want to see what is actually being sent down those wires.

L series head failure is very common. A combination of age, Oat ratio being wrong and sometimes when people up the boost to much.

I can think of less than half the L series owned by my friends who haven't had the problem.

And that on both freelander / 200 and the 25 type

I don't think "L series head failure is very common" is a fair statement at all! You can get HGF and cracked heads, but it is invariably pilot error not an inbuilt limitation/flaw of the engine or cooling system itself.

The L Series cries out for performance tuning because its so flexible and easy to do. When its overcooked it will become less reliable.

 

[Joe_H]

.
Hi Grumpy, thats not quite right - the tps failback is 1060 rpm not 1250. It is also signified by the money light and A/C being inoperative so would be immediately evident.
On the freelander, an inoperative brake switch will cause no effect at all to the engine management system. (Rave page 317 for both)
The output to the fuel pump pressure regulator and also the timing solenoid is PWM so ideally a scope would be needed.
The INPUT from the fuel quantity measuring coil is AC variable mark / space due to shifting reference by the coil tap afaik - I have not looked on a scope. It is definitely AC fed. However the best way - as you say - is a proper diagnostic, We already know the i930 is a waste of time on the L series unfortunately


I am also interested in the following -

I have also had the ecu checked out via trying a proven exchange unit.

How exactly did you do that (apart from obviously unplugging it and plugging a new one in ...) did you not have any issues with the Immobiliser ?
That is something that we have been discussing on another thread.....

Joe

 

[GrumpyGel]

.
Hi Grumpy, thats not quite right - the tps failback is 1060 rpm not 1250. It is also signified by the money light and A/C being inoperative so would be immediately evident.
On the freelander, an inoperative brake switch will cause no effect at all to the engine management system. (Rave page 317 for both)
The output to the fuel pump pressure regulator and also the timing solenoid is PWM so ideally a scope would be needed.
The INPUT from the fuel quantity measuring coil is AC variable mark / space due to shifting reference by the coil tap afaik - I have not looked on a scope. It is definitely AC fed. However the best way - as you say - is a proper diagnostic, We already know the i930 is a waste of time on the L series unfortunately


I am also interested in the following -


How exactly did you do that (apart from obviously unplugging it and plugging a new one in ...) did you not have any issues with the Immobiliser ?
That is something that we have been discussing on another thread.....

Joe

You're right Joe - Rave indicates that TPS failure will 'limit' rpm to 1060 - so its not an idle speed set due to TPS failure. It does imply though that the ECU is not sensing a fault with the TPS as the MIL light's not on.

I doubt what Rave says about the brake switch is fully accurate though. It says failure has no affect on the EMS - but obviously it will as it will not be able to perform the functions it describes it doing - I think what that means is the MIL light won't be lit. I also wouldn't mind betting what it describes as failure is just never raising a brake signal. If the switch or wiring were faulty and permanently, or (thinking of the OP's problems) mainly, raised then its possible other affects may be taking place.

I brought it up because it has been seen on L Series before. I don't know whether the TPS and brake switch are different on Rover cars. Some of the threads I found though were for Freelander, but on Rover forums. That one I linked above was a Freelander in Portugal!

Also, if a multimeter can be used on those ECU pins - it is very easy to write them off the list as possible problems (although diags will be even easier).

Pin 25 : Throttle Position Sensor (Idle Switch), 0 - 12V Switched (0v = On)
Pin 26 : Brake Pedal Switch, 12V Switched (12V = On)
Pin 33 : Throttle Position Sensor, 5V Supply - (feed to TPS?)
Pin 37 : Throttle Position Sensor - Wiper, 0 - 5V Analogue
Pin 53 : Coolant Temperature Sensor (Signal), 0 - 5V Analogue

Still think its the FP though

While of the subject of Rave, it says the ECT is located "in the top of the coolant outlet elbow which is attached to the front of the cylinder head.".

Yes, it would be interesting to know how another ECU was tested - because the ECU would be a possible candidate as well.

Edit : Again also why the TPS was changed - was it to try and cure this problem?

 

[Joe_H]

Hi GG, some great info.
I am not sure about the CTS location to be honest - I have never looked ... (they never go wrong lol)
But micro cat and rave show it on the elbow which is on the block front me thinks - (parts 16 and 15 in the diagram) - I cant see where rave mentions the cylinder head - only the elbow ..
The brakes are a weird one here. The brake actuation is signalled to the ABS unit via the shuttle valve assembly. in the event of a brake issue on either or both circuits the modulator shuttle valve would fail to open. You would get an illuminated dash but I do not quite see how it would affect the DCU .. will have to read up on that as I cannot really see a connection at this stage. I cannot see why the DCU would be interested in this side tbh. It monitors over-run via the tps internal switch (I think it is a 9 degree actuation - ie - 9 degrees from static - that signals - off idel - and when throttle is released and switch closes the overrun fuelling action takes place. This again though would put the money light on as the tps is a major critical circuit and the increasing variable position signal would have to be credible with the idle /over run switch opening.
Makes yer head spin lol
I asked about tps and no answer yet - as to why it was changed -

As you do, I still would put money on the hpfp. Th ecu would also have a big issue if the feedback sensor output was not credible with the commanded position of the quantity servo so am doubting a wiring issue tbh.

temp senders are 15 and 16 on the diagram - elbow is 14.

ps -TD4 brake servo FINALLY arrived today - Hooray...
Joe

 

[GrumpyGel]

Hi GG, some great info.
I am not sure about the CTS location to be honest - I have never looked ... (they never go wrong lol)
But micro cat and rave show it on the elbow which is on the block front me thinks - (parts 16 and 15 in the diagram) - I cant see where rave mentions the cylinder head - only the elbow ..
The brakes are a weird one here. The brake actuation is signalled to the ABS unit via the shuttle valve assembly. in the event of a brake issue on either or both circuits the modulator shuttle valve would fail to open. You would get an illuminated dash but I do not quite see how it would affect the DCU .. will have to read up on that as I cannot really see a connection at this stage. I cannot see why the DCU would be interested in this side tbh. It monitors over-run via the tps internal switch (I think it is a 9 degree actuation - ie - 9 degrees from static - that signals - off idel - and when throttle is released and switch closes the overrun fuelling action takes place. This again though would put the money light on as the tps is a major critical circuit and the increasing variable position signal would have to be credible with the idle /over run switch opening.
Makes yer head spin lol
I asked about tps and no answer yet - as to why it was changed -

As you do, I still would put money on the hpfp. Th ecu would also have a big issue if the feedback sensor output was not credible with the commanded position of the quantity servo so am doubting a wiring issue tbh.

temp senders are 15 and 16 on the diagram - elbow is 14.

ps -TD4 brake servo FINALLY arrived today - Hooray...
Joe

I think that's a pretty standard location on Rover engines. My son's T Series would hardly start when weather was cold and poor start when warm. Located the ECT there on that elbow - found 1 on a K Series in a breakers also there. Plugged it into the Tomcat to test it, and it started OK. So went to swap them over just to find the K Series one is a narrower diameter to the T !!!

Will be interesting to see what difference the bigger servo makes

 

[Joe_H]

I think that's a pretty standard location on Rover engines. My son's T Series would hardly start when weather was cold and poor start when warm. Located the ECT there on that elbow - found 1 on a K Series in a breakers also there. Plugged it into the Tomcat to test it, and it started OK. So went to swap them over just to find the K Series one is a narrower diameter to the T !!!

Will be interesting to see what difference the bigger servo makes

Those pesky K series - pah - Things have to be smaller to stop more water running out.......

I have decided to go for the larger calipers If I can get some - looking good - and a set of new vents and some ebay 5mm wheel spacers @Alibro has ordered some so he's the guinea pig .. (sorry Ali ).

 

[Stuart Jackson]

The TPS was changed because i believed it was faulty. I've had to change 2 on different Rover 25's with L series engines. Putting a multi-meter onto the wiring and rotating the potentiometer i was able to see the resistance intermittently disappearing. I decided to dismantle it (with a hacksaw) and found the PCB disc which the arm rotates on in a bad state. Normally i would buy a used item but Freelander L series ones are pretty well unavailable. I may have made the wrong decision but i am now confident that the TPS is not the issue. By the way this car doesn't have A/C. I will definitely investigate the 2nd CTS, i've only replaced one and this is on the top left hand side of the engine in a right hand casting. The brake light switch / rear light has been checked and is working fine. I've paid for a visit to get the car diagnosed with a genuine LR ODB11 reader but failed to get them out yet. I'm struggling with some of the abbreviations, what is FP?

Thanks for so much advice, cheers

 

[Joe_H]

The TPS was changed because i believed it was faulty. I've had to change 2 on different Rover 25's with L series engines. Putting a multi-meter onto the wiring and rotating the potentiometer i was able to see the resistance intermittently disappearing. I decided to dismantle it (with a hacksaw) and found the PCB disc which the arm rotates on in a bad state. Normally i would buy a used item but Freelander L series ones are pretty well unavailable. I may have made the wrong decision but i am now confident that the TPS is not the issue. By the way this car doesn't have A/C. I will definitely investigate the 2nd CTS, i've only replaced one and this is on the top left hand side of the engine in a right hand casting. The brake light switch / rear light has been checked and is working fine. I've paid for a visit to get the car diagnosed with a genuine LR ODB11 reader but failed to get them out yet. I'm struggling with some of the abbreviations, what is FP?

Thanks for so much advice, cheers

Hi, FP = Fuel Pump.
HPFP = High Pressure Fuel Pump (Basically the VP37 pump unit)

Have you checked with your father in law that the pump timing etc was done exactly as described above ? - can you 100% guarantee that -- -
He definitely used BOTH pins ! - flywheel AND FP Pulley pins were used for cam and fuel pump belt refitting.
The cam pulley was definitely timed correctly with the crankshaft ring gear pin in place.
The FP Pulley has NEVER been loosened, removed or altered in any way.
FP has never been removed by you.

If in ANY doubt at all please say so.

There is not too much point messing with temperature senders in any depth -just simply unplug the connectors from them and test it with them unplugged. The unit will go failsafe and the engine will run fine. If unplugged they make no difference then they are fine. - the problem is elsewhere. Realistically the CTS would not cause the issues you are having.

What is this LR diagnostic unit that the guy is going to use ? the L series is NOT OBD11 !. If the guy has OBD11 only then you are wasting your time.
The only 'genuine' LR is 'testbook' - it is possible he has this - but I would be surprised. You do not need a 'code reader' you need a full diagnostic unit with real time data output - also actuator testing. - again, if the guy ain't got that you are wasting your time - or he is wasting your time. I hope he has something of quality and can use it as limited data is available on the L series.

It still sounds to me as if the fuel pump timing is incorrect - too far retarded. - which would be impossible IF he used the correct procedures.
Let me know the answer to those please. - the questions re the cam and pump timing and the use of BOTH locking pins and situation re FP / Pulley. The answers there are very important.

As a test also - have you tried removing the pipe from inter- cooler to inlet ? - if not - try it - just remove the pipe from the inlet and let it run N/A (Normally Aspirated) - you only need to do a quick test.

Will be back on tomorrow - I wish you well.
Joe

 

[MacGyver]

Cough... BS - Cough....View attachment 108918.. View attachment 108919 You must have some very careless, extremely unlucky or minimal amount of friends - to say the least.....

Cough all you want, it's fact. I've helped work and rebuild more of them that I can count. And that's just helping in m spare time over last 8 years.

Have a look at the mg-rover.org diesel section, have a good read through the mg rover diesel Facebook page. It's constant.

We had another zs 2.0 td brought into the yard today for repair and its been a single owner its whole life with a service history book that would make a yellow pages look like a post it note.

You can even by thermostat bypass kits from questionable people now on them.

And to be fair there's no definite millage, imo I believe it's OAT servicing and ratio with water causing most of the problems.

 

[GrumpyGel]

Cough all you want, it's fact. I've helped work and rebuild more of them that I can count. And that's just helping in m spare time over last 8 years.

Have a look at the mg-rover.org diesel section, have a good read through the mg rover diesel Facebook page. It's constant.

We had another zs 2.0 td brought into the yard today for repair and its been a single owner its whole life with a service history book that would make a yellow pages look like a post it note.

You can even by thermostat bypass kits from questionable people now on them.

And to be fair there's no definite millage, imo I believe it's OAT servicing and ratio with water causing most of the problems.

I'm on the "MG-Rover Diesel Owners Club" group. I enjoy watching the feed, but I do find most of the people on there are tuning their cars - and usually to try and create as much smoke as possible rather than power!