keycode lockout problem

martyuk · Jun 5, 2015

Good thoughts...

From the conversations I've had with Owen, it sounds like the start relay in the engine bay fuse box is clicking - but the starter solenoid is not engaging. So far I've suggested checking the continuity on the Red/Brown wire which goes from the fuse box to the starter solenoid, but the earths and +ve cables to the starter motor are also well worth checking.

I've also suggested jumpering the starter relay in the fuse box, to see if the starter motor spins over from there - in case there is an issue with the BECM controlling it - and the relay that's clicking in the fuse box is something else.

I'm told the orange 'check engine' light is on when the key is in position II, so don't think it's a BECM - Engine ECU Sync problem, as GEMS vehicles won't show the CEL if it has lost sync.

Bit of a head scratcher at the moment and would be nice if I was a bit closer and could take a look in person!

Marty

Datatek · Jun 5, 2015

Duff fuse box is also a possibility.

stopover · Jun 5, 2015

Diagnostics should sort it.

Datatek · Jun 6, 2015

stopover said:
Diagnostics should sort it.

Not if it's a fuse box or connection problem

wammers · Jun 6, 2015

The starter circuit is pretty simple. There is a starting and charging trouble shooting guide in RAVE. But if the starter solenoid is clicking you can forget doing the BECM checks because that circuit is fine. As is the one from master fuse 2 to the relay pull side. That only leaves the circuit from from master fuse 2 through the switched side of relay 16 to the starter solenoid to look at. And the relay switch side itself. When ignition switch is in position 3 there should be 12 volts to solenoid pull wire on starter solenoid. Brown with red tracer.

stopover · Jun 6, 2015

Datatek said:
Not if it's a fuse box or connection problem

All this banging about trying to find the solution is mostly a waist of time. It appears that no diagnostics has been tried. I find this very odd. Test book would point to the problem immediately. I have come across several cars where all comms is lost Testbook sorted it. If eka is lost there are several methods to find it and restore comms. French shown on a BECM is typical of this problem.

If BECM reads French, LHD and a date in the 90's its Alarmed and needs diagnostics to clear it. Test book allows you to enter the EKA code and if that doesn't work Testbook will run a process (can take an hour sometimes) to find the unlock code and open the doors as an indication the car is now un alarmed, you can then synk the keys if nessesary. If the EKA code you have found in your handbook is not working the car may have had a BECM change in the past? But normally the above solves the problem. If its comms communication the system will indicate where, it comes with probes to assist location. There are many ways that diagnostics can be used.

In addition it is a good idea, as discussed, to wire out the plugs in both kick panels, the big plugs at least as the small ones are for speakers.

Get a diagnostics with someone who knows how to do it. Not just having the kit.

wammers · Jun 6, 2015

stopover said:
All this banging about trying to find the solution is mostly a waist of time. It appears that no diagnostics has been tried. I find this very odd. Test book would point to the problem immediately. I have come across several cars where all comms is lost Testbook sorted it. If eka is lost there are several methods to find it and restore comms. French shown on a BECM is typical of this problem.
Get a diagnostics with someone who knows how to do it. Not just having the kit.

Maybe if someone had listened a long time ago this would be sorted by now. To many cooks spoil the broth.

mozz smith · Jun 6, 2015

hello .

maybe we could ask a 3 legged eggspert eh wammy , al ????

stopover · Jun 6, 2015

wammers said:
Maybe if someone had listened a long time ago this would be sorted by now. To many cooks spoil the broth.

How true.

mozz smith · Jun 6, 2015

yeah I remember when someone was bangin on about fuel pump and cutting holes in the floor etc etc etc then threw his toys outta his pram when an eggspert was asked for , and low and behold the answer was a relay !!!!!!!!!!!! that one took 11 mths to find , but hey ho , hopefully he will listen to someone and get there in the end !!!!!!!!!!

stopover · Jun 6, 2015

mozz smith said:
yeah I remember when someone was bangin on about fuel pump and cutting holes in the floor etc etc etc then threw his toys outta his pram when an eggspert was asked for , and low and behold the answer was a relay !!!!!!!!!!!! that one took 11 mths to find , but hey ho , hopefully he will listen to someone and get there in the end !!!!!!!!!!

Was watching Red Dwarf last night... SMEGHEAD comes to light. Seems you like upseting people many who have tried to give you help when you have shouted for it. Interupting this thread with your insults is not on. Just shut up!

mozz smith · Jun 6, 2015

as expected !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the eggspert has spoken and thinks he controls all threads ????????

nevermind eh his village knows where their idiot lives !!!!!!!

wammers · Jun 6, 2015

stopover said:
All this banging about trying to find the solution is mostly a waist of time. It appears that no diagnostics has been tried. I find this very odd. Test book would point to the problem immediately. I have come across several cars where all comms is lost Testbook sorted it. If eka is lost there are several methods to find it and restore comms. French shown on a BECM is typical of this problem.

If BECM reads French, LHD and a date in the 90's its Alarmed and needs diagnostics to clear it. Test book allows you to enter the EKA code and if that doesn't work Testbook will run a process (can take an hour sometimes) to find the unlock code and open the doors as an indication the car is now un alarmed, you can then synk the keys if nessesary. If the EKA code you have found in your handbook is not working the car may have had a BECM change in the past? But normally the above solves the problem. If its comms communication the system will indicate where, it comes with probes to assist location. There are many ways that diagnostics can be used.

In addition it is a good idea, as discussed, to wire out the plugs in both kick panels, the big plugs at least as the small ones are for speakers.

Get a diagnostics with someone who knows how to do it. Not just having the kit.

Did you not read the bit were the BECM has been reset? Diag was mentioned fairly early and the OP carried on buggering about. Wouldn't listen.

mozz smith · Jun 6, 2015

stopover said:
Was watching Red Dwarf last night... SMEGHEAD comes to light. Seems you like upseting people many who have tried to give you help when you have shouted for it. Interupting this thread with your insults is not on. Just shut up!

talkin **** again stopover !!!!! READ the whole thread from page 1 when did you appear page 9 " diagnostics will show it "" ?????? durrrr then another thread same page " about everyone bangin on "" durrrrr if you had read the whole subject you would have found that I haven't interupped I was commentating early on and had had quite a few telephone conversations with him trying to help him !!!!!! so your the one who needs to keep your comments to yourself and your the one who insulted everybody else i.e." bangin on " if you cant take it don't give it , so do us all a favour and please continue to be the eggspert and a legend in your own mind !!!! ooops sorry that meant to say LEG - END !!!!! HAVE A GREAT WEEKEND ,

martyuk · Jun 6, 2015

Wow, that escalated quickly...

As an update (as I have been in touch with the owner most days this week on the phone trying to get the problem sorted)...

The BECM came to me and was indeed in an alarmed state. Also it has lost the first two digits of the EKA code, and the last 2 digits of the VIN number. I have also got him to provide me with the lockset code which I've sent to BBS to check and see if the FOB codes store in the BECM match what they should be.

Whilst the BECM was here, I noticed some surface corrosion on the power board, and offered to either clean it off whilst I was reassembling it and see how bad it was/whether there was any noticeable damage to the board/tracks/components etc. and report back to see whether the owner wanted me to replace the power board with a spare that I had here for an extra charge, or whether he was happy to take it as-is and try it out.

He was happy to take it back as-is, with the logic board reprogrammed to the correct VIN and EKA, and the alarm status reset, and the board unlocked, should it need future programming (if the FOB codes came back different).

It has since been reinstalled and trying to start but not. There has been confusion, which was finally figured out today on the phone. I had been told that the starter motor relay was clicking in the fuse box - hence leading to checking the starter motor and the Red/Brown wire from the fuse box. Today they jumpered the starter relay and it started, leading me to ask again if the starter relay was actually being pulled in. After a couple more measurements it's been found that the signal to start from the BECM ISN'T coming out of the pin on the power board. So the corrosion on the original power board has obviously actually done some damage to the track or through-board connection that the starter motor relay is energised through.

Now this is figured out, and as I am away in Canada for work for 2 weeks from Monday (doing my real job) I have programmed a complete spare BECM for the owner and it is being shipped out for me on Monday, so it will be with him on Tuesday. I've told him to install it and test it all, and make sure he is happy before returning the faulty one for me, and I'll inspect it again on the bench and see if I can find where the exact fault is.

So hopefully early next week he will have a running RR again. Had the diagnosis of the starter relay not actually being energized been found earlier in the week, then I could have had a replacement BECM or power board at least shipped out and everything sorted a few days ago.

I guess it is a lesson learned for me too - I should have pushed to swap the power board out when the BECM was with me, rather than just doing what I had been asked to - however a lot of people I do P38 electrical work for just want the bare minimum done to get it running, at the cheapest possible price...

To be fair, the OP/owner is happy for me to get the board sent to him and pay the extra for the power board, and as I feel bad for not pressing more to swap it in the first place, I'm not going to be charging extra for shipping it.

Hopefully there will be an update as a conclusion to this non-starting issue in the not-too-distant future.

blue beasty · Jun 6, 2015

mozz smith said:
as expected !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

the eggspert has spoken and thinks he controls all threads ????????

nevermind eh his village knows where their idiot lives !!!!!!!

That sounds familiar

Datatek · Jun 6, 2015

martyuk said:
Wow, that escalated quickly...

As an update (as I have been in touch with the owner most days this week on the phone trying to get the problem sorted)...

The BECM came to me and was indeed in an alarmed state. Also it has lost the first two digits of the EKA code, and the last 2 digits of the VIN number. I have also got him to provide me with the lockset code which I've sent to BBS to check and see if the FOB codes store in the BECM match what they should be.

Whilst the BECM was here, I noticed some surface corrosion on the power board, and offered to either clean it off whilst I was reassembling it and see how bad it was/whether there was any noticeable damage to the board/tracks/components etc. and report back to see whether the owner wanted me to replace the power board with a spare that I had here for an extra charge, or whether he was happy to take it as-is and try it out.

He was happy to take it back as-is, with the logic board reprogrammed to the correct VIN and EKA, and the alarm status reset, and the board unlocked, should it need future programming (if the FOB codes came back different).

It has since been reinstalled and trying to start but not. There has been confusion, which was finally figured out today on the phone. I had been told that the starter motor relay was clicking in the fuse box - hence leading to checking the starter motor and the Red/Brown wire from the fuse box. Today they jumpered the starter relay and it started, leading me to ask again if the starter relay was actually being pulled in. After a couple more measurements it's been found that the signal to start from the BECM ISN'T coming out of the pin on the power board. So the corrosion on the original power board has obviously actually done some damage to the track or through-board connection that the starter motor relay is energised through.

Now this is figured out, and as I am away in Canada for work for 2 weeks from Monday (doing my real job) I have programmed a complete spare BECM for the owner and it is being shipped out for me on Monday, so it will be with him on Tuesday. I've told him to install it and test it all, and make sure he is happy before returning the faulty one for me, and I'll inspect it again on the bench and see if I can find where the exact fault is.

So hopefully early next week he will have a running RR again. Had the diagnosis of the starter relay not actually being energized been found earlier in the week, then I could have had a replacement BECM or power board at least shipped out and everything sorted a few days ago.

I guess it is a lesson learned for me too - I should have pushed to swap the power board out when the BECM was with me, rather than just doing what I had been asked to - however a lot of people I do P38 electrical work for just want the bare minimum done to get it running, at the cheapest possible price...

To be fair, the OP/owner is happy for me to get the board sent to him and pay the extra for the power board, and as I feel bad for not pressing more to swap it in the first place, I'm not going to be charging extra for shipping it.

Hopefully there will be an update as a conclusion to this non-starting issue in the not-too-distant future.

Nice one

I too have been caught letting people off the hook with things I thought need doing. Never again, it's all or nothing these days.

stopover · Jun 6, 2015

martyuk said:
Wow, that escalated quickly...

As an update (as I have been in touch with the owner most days this week on the phone trying to get the problem sorted)...

The BECM came to me and was indeed in an alarmed state. Also it has lost the first two digits of the EKA code, and the last 2 digits of the VIN number. I have also got him to provide me with the lockset code which I've sent to BBS to check and see if the FOB codes store in the BECM match what they should be.

Whilst the BECM was here, I noticed some surface corrosion on the power board, and offered to either clean it off whilst I was reassembling it and see how bad it was/whether there was any noticeable damage to the board/tracks/components etc. and report back to see whether the owner wanted me to replace the power board with a spare that I had here for an extra charge, or whether he was happy to take it as-is and try it out.

He was happy to take it back as-is, with the logic board reprogrammed to the correct VIN and EKA, and the alarm status reset, and the board unlocked, should it need future programming (if the FOB codes came back different).

It has since been reinstalled and trying to start but not. There has been confusion, which was finally figured out today on the phone. I had been told that the starter motor relay was clicking in the fuse box - hence leading to checking the starter motor and the Red/Brown wire from the fuse box. Today they jumpered the starter relay and it started, leading me to ask again if the starter relay was actually being pulled in. After a couple more measurements it's been found that the signal to start from the BECM ISN'T coming out of the pin on the power board. So the corrosion on the original power board has obviously actually done some damage to the track or through-board connection that the starter motor relay is energised through.

Now this is figured out, and as I am away in Canada for work for 2 weeks from Monday (doing my real job) I have programmed a complete spare BECM for the owner and it is being shipped out for me on Monday, so it will be with him on Tuesday. I've told him to install it and test it all, and make sure he is happy before returning the faulty one for me, and I'll inspect it again on the bench and see if I can find where the exact fault is.

So hopefully early next week he will have a running RR again. Had the diagnosis of the starter relay not actually being energized been found earlier in the week, then I could have had a replacement BECM or power board at least shipped out and everything sorted a few days ago.

I guess it is a lesson learned for me too - I should have pushed to swap the power board out when the BECM was with me, rather than just doing what I had been asked to - however a lot of people I do P38 electrical work for just want the bare minimum done to get it running, at the cheapest possible price...

To be fair, the OP/owner is happy for me to get the board sent to him and pay the extra for the power board, and as I feel bad for not pressing more to swap it in the first place, I'm not going to be charging extra for shipping it.

Hopefully there will be an update as a conclusion to this non-starting issue in the not-too-distant future.

Thank you for sharing this information. Very interesting and appreciated. The op/owner should be sorted soon.
Hope Canada goes well.

mozz smith · Jun 6, 2015

well done marty !!!!!! great result and nice to see from start to finish the whole scenario ,,,, enjoyed it immensely ..

martyuk · Jun 6, 2015

Thanks guys - it is nice to get a closer to a resolution..

As I mentioned, I will update again once I've heard back from the owner/OP when the replacement BECM has arrived and been installed. I keep a backup copy of BECMs I work on on my diagnostics machine - mostly in case the postal system decide to lose it on the way... but it's also useful in cases like this, that I can just get another one ready to go and out the door - and then get the dodgy one back once the vehicle is up and running again...

I know what you mean Datatek about things you think need doing and not pushing to do them - but we all live an learn. It is one of the reasons I always replace the microswitches in the door latches I refurbish, whether they all test OK or not - because they are the kind of thing that one day will just fail out of the blue - or go intermittent - so fresh ones every time!

Canada will hopefully be a bit warmer than when I was last there... was still down to -8 back in March! Just a tad chilly... and a pity Niagara Falls weren't still partly frozen over, as that would have made a nice photo or 2!

keycode lockout problem

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No longer with us, RIP

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Leaks an prone to bits dropping off

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