For the Volvo aficionado's....:))

Roughly 1/9/04 14:27, Exit's monkeys randomly typed:

> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:

>>
>> Again, tire slippage, with very short tire life.

On a full time 4wd, only if it is busted or someone has
put the wrong lube in the transfer case. Or in the case
of the old BW unit, poorly designed.
>
> So what you are saying is, it doesn't account for it - it's really like
> part-time 4WD stuck in 4WD?
>
The [technically and factually incorrect] description Doug
keeps posting actually describes a full time four wheel drive
stuck in part time mode. i.e. busted.

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news:klILb.9236$5V2.14651@attbi_s53...
> Roughly 1/9/04 13:47, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > Why are you still wondering? I told you three days ago they bind and eat
> > tires like candy from the scuffing.
>
> Because your particular
> vehicle had the BW Quadratrac that was called a full time
> four wheel drive and may have had the vacuum
> operated lock that set the torque split to 50-50 ["emergency drive"]
> and had a 2:57 low available.
>
> Put the wrong lube in the chain driven transfer case and it totally
> lost the ability to provide slip between the front and rear...not
> an uncommon boo boo. Plus the slip ability just sucked anyway.
>
>
> QuadraTrac II is a full time 4wd, with a differential and a viscous
> coupler between the front and rear that works better than the
> old BW.
>

I think I'm clear on that now, thanks for the input. Afraid most of these
posts were based on a misunderstanding that has now been cleared up.

Found a nice little article better explaining how the systems work than
my sentence fragments can, Quadra trac is at the bottom.:

http://www.geocities.com/offroadvehicle/4wdwhatsthediff.html
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Roughly 1/9/04 16:37, Chris Phillipo's monkeys randomly typed:

>> > between front and rear axles that you speak of.
>>
>> I owned one, I even pulled the transmission and transfer out once and had
>> them rebuilt. I know what it had, and it had exactly what I listed, Engine,
>> transmission, transfer case, and two differentials.
>>
>
> Yes, Quadra-trac is part of the transfer case, I'll give you that.

... and according to a Jeep Factory Service manual, has
a differential as part of the transfer case function.

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news:HmILb.9244$5V2.14685@attbi_s53...
> Roughly 1/9/04 14:26, Exit's monkeys randomly typed:
> > Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
>
> >> Why are you still wondering? I told you three days ago they bind and
> >> eat tires like candy from the scuffing.
>
> Not all of them, just the one on your 1978 Jeep. Current ones
> don't.

Yep, so I've discovered,

> >
> > No, I'm wondering why anyone would buy a so-called full-time 4WD system
that
> > acts exactly as a part-time system used solely in 4WD with all the
> > associated wear and fuel consumption. It might be called full0time, but
> > clearly it isn't.
> >
>
> Because Doug is wrong and refuses to check facts.

But I have admitted the mistake was mine, so we can think happy thought
again.

Roughly 1/9/04 10:31, Exit's monkeys randomly typed:

> My part-time system has 2 diffs - I can't understand how a permanent 4WD
> system with only 2 instead of 3 diffs could allow for rotational differences
> between front and rear axles. What vehicles have a permanent 4WD system with
> 2 diffs?

None. Contrary to what someone keeps claiming just because theirs
was busted.

> Correct me if I'm wrong by all means - which vehciles in the US come with
> permanent 4WD?
>
Jaguar, Porsche, Nissan, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Volkswagen, Audi,
Jensen, Volvo, Jeep, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, all but Doug Schrader's.

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Found a nice little article better explaining how the systems work than
> my sentence fragments can, Quadra trac is at the bottom.:
>
> http://www.geocities.com/offroadvehicle/4wdwhatsthediff.html

Thanks

Roughly 1/9/04 13:55, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:
> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> If you have fulltime 4WD with only 2 diffs, how is the difference in
>> distance travelled by the front and rear axles on solid surfaces?
>
>
> Did you really have to post this exact same question four times?

Not really, but since you keep answering it wrong every time
and the question was directed at you, perhaps you should go
research your factually incorrect answer in a Factory Service
Manual, decent website on Full Size Jeeps, or simply at
www.jeep.com.


> Examples listed in other post. I do wish you wouldn't ask the same question
> four times in four different posts.

Because you keep answering it wrong.

> The part you don't understand is the part that made me state part time is
> better than full time, for the reasons I gave in my very first post. Please,
> seriously, reread all the posts, everything you are asking here has already
> been explained.

Except that it is wrong.


> Permanet four wheel drive is the term I used for vehicles with three
> diferentials. Full time four wheel drives included the Jeep I listed in the
> first post and the others listed there as well. Now, why did you ask this
> four times in four different posts all made by you at the same time?

Because you keep answering it wrong.

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news:ltILb.9277$5V2.14663@attbi_s53...
> Roughly 1/9/04 10:31, Exit's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > My part-time system has 2 diffs - I can't understand how a permanent 4WD
> > system with only 2 instead of 3 diffs could allow for rotational
differences
> > between front and rear axles. What vehicles have a permanent 4WD system
with
> > 2 diffs?
>
> None. Contrary to what someone keeps claiming just because theirs
> was busted.
>
> > Correct me if I'm wrong by all means - which vehciles in the US come
with
> > permanent 4WD?
> >
> Jaguar, Porsche, Nissan, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Volkswagen, Audi,
> Jensen, Volvo, Jeep, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, all but Doug Schrader's.

Don't know who Doug Schrader is, there's never been a "c" in my name. Good
it be YOU made a mistake, read what you THOUGHT was my name instead of how I
spell it? Your repetitive posting has all had one theme, you've mis-read
everything I've posted to date. PLease stop.

>

> > >
> > Jaguar, Porsche, Nissan, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Volkswagen, Audi,
> > Jensen, Volvo, Jeep, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, all but Doug Schrader's.
>
> Don't know who Doug Schrader is, there's never been a "c" in my name. Good
> it be YOU made a mistake, read what you THOUGHT was my name instead of how I
> spell it? Your repetitive posting has all had one theme, you've mis-read
> everything I've posted to date. PLease stop.
>
> >
>

To be fair, the only two names I can recall from this group are Roger
Brown and Jerry something or other...and I've brought stuff from Roger

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Roughly 1/9/04 17:03, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:

>
> No, I'm not. I have a 1980 Jeep CJ-7 with part time 4WD, it has 4 high, 4
> low, and 2 high, and warn lockout hubs.

That is a part time 4wd that agrees with the definition Jeep
themselves uses.


> The confusion here was between the old style fulltime 4x4's like the 78 Jeep
> J-10 with Quadratrac that drove horribly, like a part time 4x4 locked in 4WD
> mode on drive pavement, .and the Modern 4x4's with a third differential that
> eliminates the biding the old stule system suffered from. Call me old but
> when someone says fulltime the old style is what I think of.

Bummer, but there is a difference between a crappy implementation
and the concept. Much earlier than 1978, the Jensen Interceptor
had full time 4wd by Ferguson... and could take the torque of a
440 wedge or 426 hemi. Plus the Audi Quattro.

Most jeeps still had part time 4wd...
>>
>> > The 1978 Jeep J-20 pickup with quadratrac was full time four wheel drive
>> > with only two Differentials, and as I stated you could barely make a
> turn
>> > with it, I had to back up three times just to make it around the Taco
> Bell

Yeah, you keep stating that, but in fact it DID have a differential
and a vacuum lock called Emergency Drive that could more or less
lock the front and rear in the Xfer case.

Of course you could do the same thing by putting the wrong
transmission fluid in it.


>
> Mine wouldn't slip. Perhaps it was supposed to, but it never did. If you
> needed to make a sharp turn forget it, you had to back up several times to
> make the turn.

It was supposed to. Many didn't. Some had help.

Roughly 1/9/04 16:53, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:


>
> Yes, I know, I've said that numerous times here. We are talking about the
> old style fulltime 4x4 versus the new style fulltime 4x4. We are not
> discussing part time at all beyond the fact that all three of my vehicles
> are part time 4x4's, and I prefer them over the old style fulltime 4x4's.

No, we are *NOT* talking about the "old style full time 4x4".
You are talking about your specific vehicle that did have a
full time 4x4 and making blanket statements about it that you
are attempting to apply to other full time 4x4 units of the time.


> I did not say anything of the sort to what you seem to think I said. I know
> exactly what I am talking about, and I think Chris and Julian do now as
> well. There was no disinformation given at anytime, most of it was a
> misunderstanding brought on by the fact that fulltime 4x4's of today are
> totally different than the fulltime 4x4's of the late 70's, early 80's. If
> you are old enough to remember them than you'll know what I'm saying.

No, you keep claiming that your busted 4x4 was representative of the
breed. And yes, I am old enough to consider a 1978 Jeep to be
a rather new implementation of fulltime 4x4.

And have driven an old Wagoneer that had the full time that didn't
wear out tires or bind the front and rear. Of course it was owned
by a very good mechanic.

Roughly 1/9/04 16:55, Chris Phillipo's monkeys randomly typed:

> I think he just made a mistake on what he had because the full time 4wd
> system jeep uses does not have the semi-traditional differential or
> viscous clutch arrangement most others have used.

Actually that is still wrong. I am looking in a Jeep FSM, and
for the NP249 Transfer Case, it clearly shows a differntial and
viscous coupler in the transfer case. The same factory manual
identifies this as an "all the time" and "full time" four wheel
drive transfer case with only 4 Hi and 4 Lo modes. Plus I just
happen to own one [more correctly the missus does].

There are also part time transfer cases, distinguished by having
a 4 Hi and 2 Hi mode, which all of the Jeep full time 4x4 systems
lack.


> With full time 4wd
> it's a balancing act between crappy mileage (Jeep) and crappy 4wd
> performance (Honda) and it sounds like his was way more Jeep than Honda.

I dunno, I get over 20 mpg with a Jeep full time 4x4. Better than
the sports car can do. No problem with tire wear, at 67K only
on the second set of tires, swapped mainly to convert to Michelin.

The newer full time 4x4 Jeeps get even better, since they can
pretty much turn the full time 4wd into an effective 2wd on
dry pavement and low slip.

>
> I actually did have a GMC S15 which was as he described, front and rear
> locked together,

Yeah, except that if you look up 1978 Jeep QuadraTrac descriptions
on the internet, it only locks up if you use the vacuum locker or
some doofus puts the wrong fluid in it... or it is busted.

Roughly 1/9/04 16:41, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:

> Well, as I said if it was supposed to act as a differential mine did not,
> and engaging and disengaging the quadratrac never seemed to make any
> difference in how it drove or handled. That was 20 years ago, if I had one
> today I might figure out how it worked.

? How did you engage and disengage the QuadraTrac?
The full time 4wd only had 4Hi and 4Lo modes...just like the
current versions. The only thing you could do was to engage
the vacuum operated locker on the QuadraTrac, which was for
slippery conditions only. Called Emergency Drive.

If you had a 4Hi and 2Hi mode, it wasn't full time 4wd.

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news:qNILb.9994$nt4.19001@attbi_s51...
> Roughly 1/9/04 16:53, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:
>
>
> >
> > Yes, I know, I've said that numerous times here. We are talking about
the
> > old style fulltime 4x4 versus the new style fulltime 4x4. We are not
> > discussing part time at all beyond the fact that all three of my
vehicles
> > are part time 4x4's, and I prefer them over the old style fulltime
4x4's.
>
> No, we are *NOT* talking about the "old style full time 4x4".
> You are talking about your specific vehicle that did have a
> full time 4x4 and making blanket statements about it that you
> are attempting to apply to other full time 4x4 units of the time.

No, I am applying it to other 4x4's at the time because at that time I was
working as a mechanic and installed many of the conversion kits for people
who had the same complaints I had.

>
>
> > I did not say anything of the sort to what you seem to think I said. I
know
> > exactly what I am talking about, and I think Chris and Julian do now as
> > well. There was no disinformation given at anytime, most of it was a
> > misunderstanding brought on by the fact that fulltime 4x4's of today are
> > totally different than the fulltime 4x4's of the late 70's, early 80's.
If
> > you are old enough to remember them than you'll know what I'm saying.
>
> No, you keep claiming that your busted 4x4 was representative of the
> breed. And yes, I am old enough to consider a 1978 Jeep to be
> a rather new implementation of fulltime 4x4.
>
> And have driven an old Wagoneer that had the full time that didn't
> wear out tires or bind the front and rear. Of course it was owned
> by a very good mechanic.
>
>
>
>

In article <fVILb.10039$nt4.19341@attbi_s51>, "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.
$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> says...
> Roughly 1/9/04 16:55, Chris Phillipo's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > I think he just made a mistake on what he had because the full time 4wd
> > system jeep uses does not have the semi-traditional differential or
> > viscous clutch arrangement most others have used.
>
> Actually that is still wrong. I am looking in a Jeep FSM, and
> for the NP249 Transfer Case, it clearly shows a differntial and
> viscous coupler in the transfer case. The same factory manual
> identifies this as an "all the time" and "full time" four wheel
> drive transfer case with only 4 Hi and 4 Lo modes. Plus I just
> happen to own one [more correctly the missus does].
>

My point was only that if you look at just about anything else with full
time 4WD, they don't have a transfer case at all or if they do the
differential center differential/viscous clutch is external to it.


> > With full time 4wd
> > it's a balancing act between crappy mileage (Jeep) and crappy 4wd
> > performance (Honda) and it sounds like his was way more Jeep than Honda.
>
> I dunno, I get over 20 mpg with a Jeep full time 4x4. Better than
> the sports car can do. No problem with tire wear, at 67K only
> on the second set of tires, swapped mainly to convert to Michelin.

A CRV can do much better than that mileage wise but of course with it's
lose traction first, engage the rear wheels later system, it can't make
it on to a trail, much less over one.

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"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news:NXILb.9459$sv6.27405@attbi_s52...
> Roughly 1/9/04 16:41, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > Well, as I said if it was supposed to act as a differential mine did
not,
> > and engaging and disengaging the quadratrac never seemed to make any
> > difference in how it drove or handled. That was 20 years ago, if I had
one
> > today I might figure out how it worked.
>
> ? How did you engage and disengage the QuadraTrac?

There was a vacuum switch inside the glove box, and a light in the dash when
it was engaged.

> The full time 4wd only had 4Hi and 4Lo modes...just like the
> current versions.

And that is all mine had.

The only thing you could do was to engage
> the vacuum operated locker on the QuadraTrac, which was for
> slippery conditions only. Called Emergency Drive.
>
> If you had a 4Hi and 2Hi mode, it wasn't full time 4wd.
>


I did not, as I have stated. No insulkt intended but you really are not
reading my posts very thoroughly. You seem to be skimming through them
looking for something to nit-pic about, and missing quite a bit that would
clear a few things up for you.

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news:WvILb.8574$Rc4.34910@attbi_s54...
> Roughly 1/9/04 13:55, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>


You have outlived your welcome Lon, I won't bother answering anymore of your
posts here, it's clear you have missed more than you've read in this thread
and seek only to stir up **** that has already been settled. Don't go away
mad, but this discussion is over.

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > > >
> > > Jaguar, Porsche, Nissan, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Volkswagen, Audi,
> > > Jensen, Volvo, Jeep, Ford, Lincoln, Mercury, all but Doug
Schrader's.
> >
> > Don't know who Doug Schrader is, there's never been a "c" in my name.
Good
> > it be YOU made a mistake, read what you THOUGHT was my name instead of
how I
> > spell it? Your repetitive posting has all had one theme, you've mis-read
> > everything I've posted to date. PLease stop.
> >
> > >
> >
>
> To be fair, the only two names I can recall from this group are Roger
> Brown and Jerry something or other...and I've brought stuff from Roger
>

Jerry Bransford. He doesn't seem to post much lately. I had hoped he would
say something in this thread, he's pretty sharp on the uptake and could have
clarified a few things for both sides, or so I hoped. .

> > To be fair, the only two names I can recall from this group are Roger
> > Brown and Jerry something or other...and I've brought stuff from Roger
> >

That should read "bought" stuff, makes a little more sense.

Snow storms make for Friday nights like this.
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