For the Volvo aficionado's....:))

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
surfaces?
> >
> >
> > Did you really have to post this exact same question four times?
> >
> It hasn't been answered yet, so yes. . . . . .

I answered it every time, as soon as I read it. Asking four times in a row
without waiting for a response is silly, and beneath you.


>
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>> I'm sure not all full time 4x4's eat tires like that Jeep did, but
> >>>>> they still have accelerated tire wear, now way around it.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Why? 200hp divided by 4 wheels driven is 50hp each, half that of
> >>>> 2WD. As long as you have a well designed 3 diff 4WD system wear
> >>>> will not increase over 2WD.
> >>>
> >>> See above.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> My tyres (with fulltime 4WD) last 40,000 miles and
> >>>>>> handling is unaffected. As for fuel consumption, the savings are
> >>>>>> very marginal from what I have experienced, perhaps there are
> >>>>>> some figures that would demonstrate the savings? As for wear and
> >>>>>> tear, well it must be a delicate vehicle if driving your 4WD in
> >>>>>> 4WD wears it out prematurely.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Drive a part time 4x4 and you wouldn't make such statements.
> >>>>> Tires, sure, you get 40,000 in fulltime, you might get 60,000 on
> >>>>> the same tires with part time, and your handling is affected, you
> >>>>> are just compensating for it. Milage varies greatly, large
> >>>>> decrease when driving in four wheel drive mode, even the owners
> >>>>> manuals will tell you that, not to mention the hit you see when
> >>>>> you refuel.
> >>>>>
> >>>> I own a part-time 4WD LR Series 2. The tyres don't last any longer
> >>>> than my Discovery. I'm not compensating for the fact that my Disco
> >>>> handles
> >>> better -
> >>>> it handles better *because* it is 4WD. When I drive my SII in 2 or
> >>>> 4WD the mileage varies by 1mpg at most.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> See above.
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The point of full-time 4WD is that it is always there when you
> >>>>>> need it. You hit a greasy bit of tarmac, its already there,
> >>>>>> pulling out of a wet junction - already there. Patchy snow
> >>>>>> covered road with some clear tarmac, already there. Towing heavy
> >>>>>> loads on road etc, etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> THe point of learning to drive, you don't need it there. Hit a
> >>>>> greasy bit of tarmac, who cares, just go on across, you don't need
> >>>>> four wheel drive for that. Wet junction, same thing, even if it's
> >>>>> solid ice you don't need four wheel drive, you just need driving
> >>>>> ability. None of the items you listed require four wheel drive,
> >>>>> sure in some cases it makes it a bit easier, but not required by
> >>>>> any means
> >>>>>
> >>>> Yeah right. And if I eat enough carrots I don't need headlights
> >>>> either. . . . . . Makes me wonder why all these idiots buy 4WD.
> >>>
> >>> Now your being silly, I expected better from you. The road was snow
> >>> and ice covered this morning here, I had no trouble making it to
> >>> work in 2 wheel drive. 4 wheel drive is used when there are four
> >>> foot drifts across the road, not patches of snow here and there.
> >>>
> >> I didn't say you couldn't drive in bad weather without 4WD, but it
> >> does make it easier, just like night driving with headlights is
> >> easier than without.
> >
> >
> > And if you read my original post I said 4WD makes it easier but is not
> > required, whereapon you decided to say something silly.
> >
> You said no-one who was a good driver needs 4WD. I simply said the same
> applies to headlights.

No, you don't need a 4x4 to handle patches of snow on an otherwise clear
road, or a spot of grease on the road, or water at an intersection, and I
think you know that. You were trying to dream up scenarious to justify a
fulltime 4x4 system but failed to list a single good reason. Why not be
honest and admit it's something you want, instead of trying to deceive me?
I'll understand.

> >
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I wonder if part-time is so good, why all manufacturers have or
> >>>>>> are dumping it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Many good ideas are left behind because the general public is to
> >>>>> dumb to survive without help. Sure there are smart individuals but
> >>>>> they don't buy enough to control the market. Please don't take
> >>>>> that as a personal insult, it isn't intended as such. Don't know
> >>>>> about your country but quality is fading fast here because to
> >>>>> many people base purchase decisions on price. Why spend $20.00 on
> >>>>> a wrench when I can buy this one for $2.00? Then when the $2.00
> >>>>> bends they gripe about it "they don't build things like they used
> >>>>> to", then they go out and buy another $2.00 wrench. Part time is
> >>>>> great for people like me, I really don't care what you want to
> >>>>> drive. You asked for reasons, I gave you reasons. To and for me
> >>>>> they are valid, to each his own.
> >>>>
> >>>> As I said before I own bothe full and part-time 4WD vehicles, so I
> >>>> get a good view of both.
> >>>
> >>> See above, what you and I were calling fulltime are not the same
> >>> vehicles. Tell me, does your part time have two or three diffs?
> >>>
> >> My part-time system has 2 diffs - I can't understand how a permanent
> >> 4WD system with only 2 instead of 3 diffs could allow for rotational
> >> differences between front and rear axles. What vehicles have a
> >> permanent 4WD system with 2 diffs?
> >
> > Examples listed in other post. I do wish you wouldn't ask the same
> > question four times in four different posts.
> > The part you don't understand is the part that made me state part
> > time is better than full time, for the reasons I gave in my very
> > first post. Please, seriously, reread all the posts, everything you
> > are asking here has already been explained.
> >
> I have. I can't understand why you call it full-time 4WD when clearly it
is
> designed not to be used on paved roads as it has no way of allowing for
> inter-axle rotational differences.

I call it fulltime because the manufacturers called it fulltime, and they
marketed it for use in all weather and road conditions, including dry
pavement.

It appears from your description to be
> part-time 4WD without the option of 2WD for road use which is amazing.


Millions were built and sold here, and many of the buyers loved them. I did
not.

>
> >
> >>
> >>> It is fair to say that your reasons are vaild to you and
> >>>> I respect that, I do suspect that the real problem is the lack of
> >>>> availability of decent permanent 4WD system in US vehicles. As you
> >>>> say, cars are cheaper in the US and purchased more on price than
> >>>> here in my experience which is why I thin low-tech is more
> >>>> acceptable as long as the price is also low.
> >>>
> >>> You thin? ;-)
> >>
> >> Correct me if I'm wrong by all means - which vehciles in the US come
> >> with permanent 4WD?
> >
> > Permanet four wheel drive is the term I used for vehicles with three
> > diferentials. Full time four wheel drives included the Jeep I listed
> > in the first post and the others listed there as well. Now, why did
> > you ask this four times in four different posts all made by you at
> > the same time?
>
> Coz this is the 7th time you've skirted the question. . . . . . ;-)

I have not skirted it even once, you simply repeated four times in a row
without waiting for a response. I think you understand now, if not I doubt I
can explain it any better, so take care and goodbye, I hope ;-)

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
> says...
> > You can't drive that on the road so it must be a tractor.
> >
> > See, there you go with the stupid statements again. You can indeed drive
> > them on the road, that J-10 Jeep had 100,000 miles on it when I sold it,
> > most were highway miles.
> >
>
> As I've already explained, the Jeep J-10 does not have this solid like
> between front and rear axles that you speak of.

I owned one, I even pulled the transmission and transfer out once and had
them rebuilt. I know what it had, and it had exactly what I listed, Engine,
transmission, transfer case, and two differentials.

>
> > >
> > > > I used to think people who called you an idiot were wrong, now I
know
> > > > better.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Whatever, I don't know who the hell you are which shows how much
you've
> > > contributed.
> >
> > I've posted here for at least four years now and I have had many
> > conversations with you in the past. 99.9% of your posts are one line
insults
> > that have nothing to do with the topic. I have always been courteous to
you,
>
> Whatever you say Doug. Cite some examples.

You're not worth the effort, google them yourself, I've always posted under
my full name.

> > >
> >
> > If it was eating tires as you say perhaps it had a locker installed in
> > the front and/or rear differential. Or maybe it just needed an
> > alignment.
>
> It had no lockers, and I had it aligned with no change. With it eating a set
> of radials every 10,000 miles I assure I explored every option to decrease
> tire wear and improve the steering. The only option that would work was to
> remove the front driveshaft completely.
>
>
>

Trading it in for a manual part time rig would have been easier and
cheaper Jeep owners have told me that the Borg Warner Quadra-trac is
the "shiznit" to have and it's unfortunate my 4Runner is crippled by not
having it. So I don't know what the problem with yours was. Of course
it was the 70s.
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> > between front and rear axles that you speak of.
>
> I owned one, I even pulled the transmission and transfer out once and had
> them rebuilt. I know what it had, and it had exactly what I listed, Engine,
> transmission, transfer case, and two differentials.
>

Yes, Quadra-trac is part of the transfer case, I'll give you that.
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"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> > > >
> > >
> > > If it was eating tires as you say perhaps it had a locker installed in
> > > the front and/or rear differential. Or maybe it just needed an
> > > alignment.
> >
> > It had no lockers, and I had it aligned with no change. With it eating a
set
> > of radials every 10,000 miles I assure I explored every option to
decrease
> > tire wear and improve the steering. The only option that would work was
to
> > remove the front driveshaft completely.
> >
> >
> >
>
> Trading it in for a manual part time rig would have been easier and
> cheaper Jeep owners have told me that the Borg Warner Quadra-trac is
> the "shiznit" to have and it's unfortunate my 4Runner is crippled by not
> having it. So I don't know what the problem with yours was. Of course
> it was the 70s.

Yes it was. It may have been a lemon, I don't know. I just get riled when
someone posts **** without a reason, I don't want to fight with you. I'll
apologize if you want, in fact I will anyway. Sorry i insulted you, lets go
back to being civil.

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > > between front and rear axles that you speak of.
> >
> > I owned one, I even pulled the transmission and transfer out once and
had
> > them rebuilt. I know what it had, and it had exactly what I listed,
Engine,
> > transmission, transfer case, and two differentials.
> >
>
> Yes, Quadra-trac is part of the transfer case, I'll give you that.

Well, as I said if it was supposed to act as a differential mine did not,
and engaging and disengaging the quadratrac never seemed to make any
difference in how it drove or handled. That was 20 years ago, if I had one
today I might figure out how it worked.

Roughly 1/9/04 03:22, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:

> "Heath Raftery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Douglas A. Shrader <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> > "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> > news:[email protected]...
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I think I see the problem here. I am not talking about a permanent 4
>> > wheel
>> >> > drive with 3 diffs, I'm talking about full time four wheel drive,
> which
>> > only
>> >> > has two diffs. The two diff setup with no option to use two wheel
> drive
>> > has
>> >> > always been call Full time four wheel drive, long before I ever heard
> of
>> > the
>> >> > diffs being used, and that is the diffintion I think of when someone
>> > says
>> >> > fulltime.
>> >>
>> >> That's called a farm tractor unless by no middle diff you mean it has a
>> >> viscous coupling or something similar.
>> >>
>>
>> > No genius, as a farmer who owns a tractor I'm well aware of what a
> tractor
>> > is, though obviously you aren't. Listen carefully.
>>
>> > The fulltime has an Engine, Transmission, and Transfer case. One
> Driveshaft
>> > goes from the front of the Transfer case to the Front Differential, a
> second
>> > Driveshaft goes from the rear of the Transfer case to the Rear
> Differential.
>> > There is no Third Differential, Trucks that have a Third Differential
> are
>> > called Fulltime 4x4's by many, but as the name was first applied to the
>> > vehicles I described it becomes confusing, so I for clarity here
> borrowed
>> > Julians term Permanent Four wheel drive.
>>
>> I think I share Chris's lack of understanding here then. How do you
>> drive one of these "Permanent Four Wheel Drive" vehicles over a change
>> of gradient, or around a corner, on a grippy surface, without scrubing
>> tyres or breaking axles?
>>
>> I'll set out some ASCII art so you can draw me a diagram:
>>
>> Douglas's "Permanent Four Wheel Drive":
>
> No, that is Fulltime four wheel drive, the type that has been manufactured
> for the last fifty years. Yes, the tires have to slip, that is why you get
> the increased tire wear, binding on sharp turns, increased wear on the
> driveline and lower gas milage, and it is why I said part time was better
> than fulltime. The Permanent Four wheel drive has the Third Differential and
> is NOT the type I was refering to when I said part time was better. Jesus
> people, learn to read, Please.

Hopefully they won't read YOUR posting, as you are exactly backwards.
Full time four wheel drive is one you can't disable. Part time
four wheel drive is one you can switch between two wheel drive
and four wheel drive.

With full time four wheel drive, you need some means of allowing
the front and rear wheels to travel different distances...exactly
like you need for the left and right wheels of a normal 2wd vehicle.
The means for doing this varies from simple to complex and may include
the ability to shift driving force as needed. Full time 4wd vehicles
include the Jensen, Audi Quattro, Jaguar X-Type, Porsche Turbo AWD,
Mercury Mountaineer, etc. etc. and the full size Jeeps as an option.

With part time 4wd, you may or may not have this and may or may not
have the ability to lock the front and rear together. Handy for
hard core offroading. Available on Ford Explorer, Jeep Wrangler,
and some full size Jeeps amongst many others.

Rather than spread disinformation so vehemently, try watching
the movies at www.jeep.com.

Roughly 1/9/04 13:46, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:

> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message

>> At the risk of getting shouted at as you seem to be losing your temper
> here,
>> can you let me know some of the vehicles you describe as having permanent
>> 4WD but only 2 diffs - I can't find any road vehicle that fits this
> design?
>
> Not with you, I'm only getting agravated with the idiots.

Except that you are making an extremely common mistake in
confusing full time four wheel drive [which differs from AWD
mainly in not having a low range] with selectable part time
four wheel drive. And are in direct contradition with the
descriptions at the Jeep website.

> The 1978 Jeep J-20 pickup with quadratrac was full time four wheel drive
> with only two Differentials, and as I stated you could barely make a turn
> with it, I had to back up three times just to make it around the Taco Bell
> drive through here, and it would eat a set of Radials in 10,000 miles. There
> were also a blue million pickups built in that time frame with the same set
> up, Chevys were very common around here,which is why they came out with
> conversion kits for people to make them into part time 4x4. Unfortunately no
> conversion was possible for the quadratrac so I was stuck. Now anytime
> someone says fulltime 4 wheel drive those are the vehicles I think of, and
> why I say part time is better. The new ones would be better called all wheel
> drive, would eliminate alot of confusion from using an existing name for a
> different product.
> I really have not looked recently to see how they are built now, because I
> only want part time, full time is hardly needed or justified for me.
>

Currently QuadraTrac on a Jeep is a Full Time Four Wheel
Drive system with slip available between the front and
rear wheels. Some with a viscous coupler [e.g. the Full Time
4wd system on my Jeep] and some with a Gerotor.

Select-Trac is the part time version, with Command Trac and
Rock Trac as additional variants. Slippery conditions only.

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news:2XHLb.9093$5V2.13628@attbi_s53...
> Roughly 1/9/04 03:22, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > "Heath Raftery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Douglas A. Shrader <[email protected]> wrote:
> >>
> >> > "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >> > news:[email protected]...
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I think I see the problem here. I am not talking about a permanent
4
> >> > wheel
> >> >> > drive with 3 diffs, I'm talking about full time four wheel drive,
> > which
> >> > only
> >> >> > has two diffs. The two diff setup with no option to use two wheel
> > drive
> >> > has
> >> >> > always been call Full time four wheel drive, long before I ever
heard
> > of
> >> > the
> >> >> > diffs being used, and that is the diffintion I think of when
someone
> >> > says
> >> >> > fulltime.
> >> >>
> >> >> That's called a farm tractor unless by no middle diff you mean it
has a
> >> >> viscous coupling or something similar.
> >> >>
> >>
> >> > No genius, as a farmer who owns a tractor I'm well aware of what a
> > tractor
> >> > is, though obviously you aren't. Listen carefully.
> >>
> >> > The fulltime has an Engine, Transmission, and Transfer case. One
> > Driveshaft
> >> > goes from the front of the Transfer case to the Front Differential, a
> > second
> >> > Driveshaft goes from the rear of the Transfer case to the Rear
> > Differential.
> >> > There is no Third Differential, Trucks that have a Third Differential
> > are
> >> > called Fulltime 4x4's by many, but as the name was first applied to
the
> >> > vehicles I described it becomes confusing, so I for clarity here
> > borrowed
> >> > Julians term Permanent Four wheel drive.
> >>
> >> I think I share Chris's lack of understanding here then. How do you
> >> drive one of these "Permanent Four Wheel Drive" vehicles over a change
> >> of gradient, or around a corner, on a grippy surface, without scrubing
> >> tyres or breaking axles?
> >>
> >> I'll set out some ASCII art so you can draw me a diagram:
> >>
> >> Douglas's "Permanent Four Wheel Drive":
> >
> > No, that is Fulltime four wheel drive, the type that has been
manufactured
> > for the last fifty years. Yes, the tires have to slip, that is why you
get
> > the increased tire wear, binding on sharp turns, increased wear on the
> > driveline and lower gas milage, and it is why I said part time was
better
> > than fulltime. The Permanent Four wheel drive has the Third Differential
and
> > is NOT the type I was refering to when I said part time was better.
Jesus
> > people, learn to read, Please.
>
> Hopefully they won't read YOUR posting, as you are exactly backwards.
> Full time four wheel drive is one you can't disable. Part time
> four wheel drive is one you can switch between two wheel drive
> and four wheel drive.

Yes, I know, I've said that numerous times here. We are talking about the
old style fulltime 4x4 versus the new style fulltime 4x4. We are not
discussing part time at all beyond the fact that all three of my vehicles
are part time 4x4's, and I prefer them over the old style fulltime 4x4's.

>
> With full time four wheel drive, you need some means of allowing
> the front and rear wheels to travel different distances...exactly
> like you need for the left and right wheels of a normal 2wd vehicle.
> The means for doing this varies from simple to complex and may include
> the ability to shift driving force as needed. Full time 4wd vehicles
> include the Jensen, Audi Quattro, Jaguar X-Type, Porsche Turbo AWD,
> Mercury Mountaineer, etc. etc. and the full size Jeeps as an option.
>
> With part time 4wd, you may or may not have this and may or may not
> have the ability to lock the front and rear together. Handy for
> hard core offroading. Available on Ford Explorer, Jeep Wrangler,
> and some full size Jeeps amongst many others.
>
> Rather than spread disinformation so vehemently, try watching
> the movies at www.jeep.com.


I did not say anything of the sort to what you seem to think I said. I know
exactly what I am talking about, and I think Chris and Julian do now as
well. There was no disinformation given at anytime, most of it was a
misunderstanding brought on by the fact that fulltime 4x4's of today are
totally different than the fulltime 4x4's of the late 70's, early 80's. If
you are old enough to remember them than you'll know what I'm saying.

In article <2XHLb.9093$5V2.13628@attbi_s53>, "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.
$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> says...
> Hopefully they won't read YOUR posting, as you are exactly backwards.
> Full time four wheel drive is one you can't disable. Part time
> four wheel drive is one you can switch between two wheel drive
> and four wheel drive.
>
> With full time four wheel drive, you need some means of allowing
> the front and rear wheels to travel different distances...exactly
> like you need for the left and right wheels of a normal 2wd vehicle.
> The means for doing this varies from simple to complex and may include
> the ability to shift driving force as needed. Full time 4wd vehicles
> include the Jensen, Audi Quattro, Jaguar X-Type, Porsche Turbo AWD,
> Mercury Mountaineer, etc. etc. and the full size Jeeps as an option.
>
> With part time 4wd, you may or may not have this and may or may not
> have the ability to lock the front and rear together. Handy for
> hard core offroading. Available on Ford Explorer, Jeep Wrangler,
> and some full size Jeeps amongst many others.
>
> Rather than spread disinformation so vehemently, try watching
> the movies at www.jeep.com.
>
>
>

I think he just made a mistake on what he had because the full time 4wd
system jeep uses does not have the semi-traditional differential or
viscous clutch arrangement most others have used. With full time 4wd
it's a balancing act between crappy mileage (Jeep) and crappy 4wd
performance (Honda) and it sounds like his was way more Jeep than Honda.

I actually did have a GMC S15 which was as he described, front and rear
locked together, of course that was because the actuator failed and I
couldn't get it out of 4WD. It exploded after 30 km on pavement despite
my efforts to drive on the dirt shoulder as often as possible. Broke
the front drive shaft u-join/yoke and blew the pinion seal out of the
front end. It was a nice smooth ride home after that.
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Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
>>> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> surfaces?
>>>
>>>
>>> Did you really have to post this exact same question four times?
>>>
>> It hasn't been answered yet, so yes. . . . . .
>
> I answered it every time, as soon as I read it. Asking four times in
> a row without waiting for a response is silly, and beneath you.
>
No you didn't but as it turns out, that was because you didn't understand
the full-time 4WD system you were decribing.

>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm sure not all full time 4x4's eat tires like that Jeep did,
>>>>>>> but they still have accelerated tire wear, now way around it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why? 200hp divided by 4 wheels driven is 50hp each, half that of
>>>>>> 2WD. As long as you have a well designed 3 diff 4WD system wear
>>>>>> will not increase over 2WD.
>>>>>
>>>>> See above.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My tyres (with fulltime 4WD) last 40,000 miles and
>>>>>>>> handling is unaffected. As for fuel consumption, the savings
>>>>>>>> are very marginal from what I have experienced, perhaps there
>>>>>>>> are some figures that would demonstrate the savings? As for
>>>>>>>> wear and tear, well it must be a delicate vehicle if driving
>>>>>>>> your 4WD in 4WD wears it out prematurely.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Drive a part time 4x4 and you wouldn't make such statements.
>>>>>>> Tires, sure, you get 40,000 in fulltime, you might get 60,000 on
>>>>>>> the same tires with part time, and your handling is affected,
>>>>>>> you are just compensating for it. Milage varies greatly, large
>>>>>>> decrease when driving in four wheel drive mode, even the owners
>>>>>>> manuals will tell you that, not to mention the hit you see when
>>>>>>> you refuel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> I own a part-time 4WD LR Series 2. The tyres don't last any
>>>>>> longer than my Discovery. I'm not compensating for the fact that
>>>>>> my Disco handles
>>>>> better -
>>>>>> it handles better *because* it is 4WD. When I drive my SII in 2
>>>>>> or 4WD the mileage varies by 1mpg at most.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> See above.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point of full-time 4WD is that it is always there when you
>>>>>>>> need it. You hit a greasy bit of tarmac, its already there,
>>>>>>>> pulling out of a wet junction - already there. Patchy snow
>>>>>>>> covered road with some clear tarmac, already there. Towing
>>>>>>>> heavy loads on road etc, etc.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> THe point of learning to drive, you don't need it there. Hit a
>>>>>>> greasy bit of tarmac, who cares, just go on across, you don't
>>>>>>> need four wheel drive for that. Wet junction, same thing, even
>>>>>>> if it's solid ice you don't need four wheel drive, you just
>>>>>>> need driving ability. None of the items you listed require four
>>>>>>> wheel drive, sure in some cases it makes it a bit easier, but
>>>>>>> not required by any means
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yeah right. And if I eat enough carrots I don't need headlights
>>>>>> either. . . . . . Makes me wonder why all these idiots buy 4WD.
>>>>>
>>>>> Now your being silly, I expected better from you. The road was
>>>>> snow and ice covered this morning here, I had no trouble making
>>>>> it to work in 2 wheel drive. 4 wheel drive is used when there are
>>>>> four foot drifts across the road, not patches of snow here and
>>>>> there.
>>>>>
>>>> I didn't say you couldn't drive in bad weather without 4WD, but it
>>>> does make it easier, just like night driving with headlights is
>>>> easier than without.
>>>
>>>
>>> And if you read my original post I said 4WD makes it easier but is
>>> not required, whereapon you decided to say something silly.
>>>
>> You said no-one who was a good driver needs 4WD. I simply said the
>> same applies to headlights.
>
> No, you don't need a 4x4 to handle patches of snow on an otherwise
> clear road, or a spot of grease on the road, or water at an
> intersection, and I think you know that. You were trying to dream up
> scenarious to justify a fulltime 4x4 system but failed to list a
> single good reason. Why not be honest and admit it's something you
> want, instead of trying to deceive me? I'll understand.
>
Simply not true. Pretty much any surface can be driven on without permanent
4WD, but it's easier and safer with much of the time. Why not just admit you
steamed in shouting the odds without knowing how your 4WD system works, I'll
understand you know!

>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I wonder if part-time is so good, why all manufacturers have or
>>>>>>>> are dumping it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many good ideas are left behind because the general public is to
>>>>>>> dumb to survive without help. Sure there are smart individuals
>>>>>>> but they don't buy enough to control the market. Please don't
>>>>>>> take that as a personal insult, it isn't intended as such.
>>>>>>> Don't know about your country but quality is fading fast here
>>>>>>> because to many people base purchase decisions on price. Why
>>>>>>> spend $20.00 on a wrench when I can buy this one for $2.00?
>>>>>>> Then when the $2.00 bends they gripe about it "they don't build
>>>>>>> things like they used to", then they go out and buy another
>>>>>>> $2.00 wrench. Part time is great for people like me, I really
>>>>>>> don't care what you want to drive. You asked for reasons, I
>>>>>>> gave you reasons. To and for me they are valid, to each his own.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As I said before I own bothe full and part-time 4WD vehicles, so
>>>>>> I get a good view of both.
>>>>>
>>>>> See above, what you and I were calling fulltime are not the same
>>>>> vehicles. Tell me, does your part time have two or three diffs?
>>>>>
>>>> My part-time system has 2 diffs - I can't understand how a
>>>> permanent 4WD system with only 2 instead of 3 diffs could allow
>>>> for rotational differences between front and rear axles. What
>>>> vehicles have a permanent 4WD system with 2 diffs?
>>>
>>> Examples listed in other post. I do wish you wouldn't ask the same
>>> question four times in four different posts.
>>> The part you don't understand is the part that made me state part
>>> time is better than full time, for the reasons I gave in my very
>>> first post. Please, seriously, reread all the posts, everything you
>>> are asking here has already been explained.
>>>
>> I have. I can't understand why you call it full-time 4WD when
>> clearly it is designed not to be used on paved roads as it has no
>> way of allowing for inter-axle rotational differences.
>
> I call it fulltime because the manufacturers called it fulltime, and
> they marketed it for use in all weather and road conditions,
> including dry pavement.
>
Fully understood now.

> It appears from your description to be
>> part-time 4WD without the option of 2WD for road use which is
>> amazing.
>
>
> Millions were built and sold here, and many of the buyers loved them.
> I did not.
>
I can fully understand you not liking it from the description.

>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> It is fair to say that your reasons are vaild to you and
>>>>>> I respect that, I do suspect that the real problem is the lack of
>>>>>> availability of decent permanent 4WD system in US vehicles. As
>>>>>> you say, cars are cheaper in the US and purchased more on price
>>>>>> than here in my experience which is why I thin low-tech is more
>>>>>> acceptable as long as the price is also low.
>>>>>
>>>>> You thin? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Correct me if I'm wrong by all means - which vehciles in the US
>>>> come with permanent 4WD?
>>>
>>> Permanet four wheel drive is the term I used for vehicles with three
>>> diferentials. Full time four wheel drives included the Jeep I listed
>>> in the first post and the others listed there as well. Now, why did
>>> you ask this four times in four different posts all made by you at
>>> the same time?
>>
>> Coz this is the 7th time you've skirted the question. . . . . . ;-)
>
> I have not skirted it even once, you simply repeated four times in a
> row without waiting for a response. I think you understand now, if
> not I doubt I can explain it any better, so take care and goodbye, I
> hope ;-)

You insisted many times that the full-time 4WD setup you were describing had
no centre diff, which it does, this is why the question never got a
satisfactory answer.

To conclude, I agree with you - if that was the type full-time 4WD available
I too would prefer part-time, but I think a proper permanent 4WD system is
on balance superior.

--
Julian
---------
= Pretentious Sig required =

Roughly 1/9/04 14:24, Exit's monkeys randomly typed:

> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
>> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
>>>> "Heath Raftery" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> Douglas A. Shrader <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think I see the problem here. I am not talking about a
>>>>>>>> permanent 4 wheel drive with 3 diffs, I'm talking about full
>>>>>>>> time four wheel drive,
>>>> which
>>>>>> only
>>>>>>>> has two diffs. The two diff setup with no option to use two
>>>>>>>> wheel
>>>> drive
>>>>>> has
>>>>>>>> always been call Full time four wheel drive, long before I ever
>>>>>>>> heard
>>>> of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> diffs being used, and that is the diffintion I think of when
>>>>>>>> someone says fulltime.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's called a farm tractor unless by no middle diff you mean it
>>>>>>> has a viscous coupling or something similar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> No genius, as a farmer who owns a tractor I'm well aware of what a
>>>>>> tractor is, though obviously you aren't. Listen carefully.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The fulltime has an Engine, Transmission, and Transfer case. One
>>>>>> Driveshaft goes from the front of the Transfer case to the Front
>>>>>> Differential, a second Driveshaft goes from the rear of the
>>>>>> Transfer case to the Rear Differential. There is no Third
>>>>>> Differential, Trucks that have a Third Differential are called
>>>>>> Fulltime 4x4's by many, but as the name was first applied to the
>>>>>> vehicles I described it becomes confusing, so I for clarity here
>>>>>> borrowed Julians term Permanent Four wheel drive.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think I share Chris's lack of understanding here then. How do you
>>>>> drive one of these "Permanent Four Wheel Drive" vehicles over a
>>>>> change of gradient, or around a corner, on a grippy surface,
>>>>> without scrubing tyres or breaking axles?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'll set out some ASCII art so you can draw me a diagram:
>>>>>
>>>>> Douglas's "Permanent Four Wheel Drive":
>>>>
>>>> No, that is Fulltime four wheel drive, the type that has been
>>>> manufactured for the last fifty years. Yes, the tires have to slip,
>>>> that is why you get the increased tire wear, binding on sharp turns,
>>>> increased wear on the driveline and lower gas milage, and it is why
>>>> I said part time was better than fulltime. The Permanent Four wheel
>>>> drive has the Third Differential and is NOT the type I was refering
>>>> to when I said part time was better. Jesus people, learn to read,
>>>> Please.
>>>>
>>> At the risk of getting shouted at as you seem to be losing your
>>> temper here, can you let me know some of the vehicles you describe
>>> as having permanent 4WD but only 2 diffs - I can't find any road
>>> vehicle that fits this design?
>>
>> Not with you, I'm only getting agravated with the idiots.
>> The 1978 Jeep J-20 pickup with quadratrac was full time four wheel
>> drive with only two Differentials, and as I stated you could barely
>> make a turn with it, I had to back up three times just to make it
>> around the Taco Bell drive through here, and it would eat a set of
>> Radials in 10,000 miles. There were also a blue million pickups built
>> in that time frame with the same set up, Chevys were very common
>> around here,which is why they came out with conversion kits for
>> people to make them into part time 4x4. Unfortunately no conversion
>> was possible for the quadratrac so I was stuck. Now anytime someone
>> says fulltime 4 wheel drive those are the vehicles I think of, and
>> why I say part time is better. The new ones would be better called
>> all wheel drive, would eliminate alot of confusion from using an
>> existing name for a different product. I really have not looked
>> recently to see how they are built now, because I only want part
>> time, full time is hardly needed or justified for me.
>
> So full-time 4WD is exactly the same as part-time 4WD when in 4WD mode? No
> diff to account for different axle rotational speeds? I'm not surprised the
> tyres wear out and it eats fuel! What is the point of such a pointless
> system? Could your full-time quadratrac system be used in 2WD? If so, why
> call it full-time when clearly it is part-time?

QuadraTrac is a full time system with slippage and may be
engaged on any surface. Uses a viscous coupler... the same
technology used on the Jensen and Jaguar.

Full Time 4wd is designed for any surface and may be used
at any time.

Part Time 4wd locks the front and rear and is not for use
on dry pavement.

Gory Details at:
<http://www.jeep.com/4x4/index.html?context=homepage&type=tab>


>
> I can see why you wouldn't want a 4WD system like you describe above, but a
> proper 3 diff permanent 4WD system is clealr superior.
>

Roughly 1/9/04 16:04, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:

> It was an automatic, and there was no third differential. If the transfer
> case was intended to function as a differential as well, it failed, as the
> Jeep would not turn sharp and ate the front tires in 10,000 miles. I won't
> call you an idiot anymore if you stop making insulting posts without a
> reason either, the choice is yours.

QuadraTrac uses a viscous coupler, not a front/rear differential.
Details at www.jeep.com or in the FSM section on transmission and
drivetrains.

Roughly 1/9/04 14:38, Chris Phillipo's monkeys randomly typed:

> In article <[email protected]>,
> [email protected] says...
>> At the risk of getting shouted at as you seem to be losing your temper here,
>> can you let me know some of the vehicles you describe as having permanent
>> 4WD but only 2 diffs - I can't find any road vehicle that fits this design?
>>
>>
>
> Indeed, I expect a list of John Deer tractors or military vehicles.

Military 4x4's used part time 4wd, at least the tactical ones did.

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected]
says...
>
> I did not say anything of the sort to what you seem to think I said. I know
> exactly what I am talking about, and I think Chris and Julian do now as
> well. There was no disinformation given at anytime, most of it was a
> misunderstanding brought on by the fact that fulltime 4x4's of today are
> totally different than the fulltime 4x4's of the late 70's, early 80's. If
> you are old enough to remember them than you'll know what I'm saying.
>
>
>

I think Doug, that are correct in what you were saying about the terms
used, you just happened to sight an example that doesn't (at least
according to the manufacturer) fit the criteria. I still can't think of
a road going passenger car that has full time 4wd and no slippage
between front and rear but that's not the point. I've seen tractors and
ATVs with the front and rear locked together, they were called full time
4wd, and I think that's what you are getting at.
--
____________________
Remove "X" from email address to reply.

"L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.$t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> wrote in message
news1ILb.9129$5V2.14317@attbi_s53...
> Roughly 1/9/04 13:46, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:
>
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> >> At the risk of getting shouted at as you seem to be losing your temper
> > here,
> >> can you let me know some of the vehicles you describe as having
permanent
> >> 4WD but only 2 diffs - I can't find any road vehicle that fits this
> > design?
> >
> > Not with you, I'm only getting agravated with the idiots.
>
> Except that you are making an extremely common mistake in
> confusing full time four wheel drive [which differs from AWD
> mainly in not having a low range] with selectable part time
> four wheel drive. And are in direct contradition with the
> descriptions at the Jeep website.

No, I'm not. I have a 1980 Jeep CJ-7 with part time 4WD, it has 4 high, 4
low, and 2 high, and warn lockout hubs.
I also have a 1984 GMC K 2500 with part time 4WD, same gear selection, and
milemarker hubs I installed to replace the old automatic hubs,
Third, I have a 1991 GMC K 2500 with part time 4WD, it does not use lockable
hubs, but instead couples and uncouples the front differential.
The confusion here was between the old style fulltime 4x4's like the 78 Jeep
J-10 with Quadratrac that drove horribly, like a part time 4x4 locked in 4WD
mode on drive pavement, .and the Modern 4x4's with a third differential that
eliminates the biding the old stule system suffered from. Call me old but
when someone says fulltime the old style is what I think of.
>
> > The 1978 Jeep J-20 pickup with quadratrac was full time four wheel drive
> > with only two Differentials, and as I stated you could barely make a
turn
> > with it, I had to back up three times just to make it around the Taco
Bell
> > drive through here, and it would eat a set of Radials in 10,000 miles.
There
> > were also a blue million pickups built in that time frame with the same
set
> > up, Chevys were very common around here,which is why they came out with
> > conversion kits for people to make them into part time 4x4.
Unfortunately no
> > conversion was possible for the quadratrac so I was stuck. Now anytime
> > someone says fulltime 4 wheel drive those are the vehicles I think of,
and
> > why I say part time is better. The new ones would be better called all
wheel
> > drive, would eliminate alot of confusion from using an existing name for
a
> > different product.
> > I really have not looked recently to see how they are built now, because
I
> > only want part time, full time is hardly needed or justified for me.
> >
>
> Currently QuadraTrac on a Jeep is a Full Time Four Wheel
> Drive system with slip available between the front and
> rear wheels. Some with a viscous coupler [e.g. the Full Time
> 4wd system on my Jeep] and some with a Gerotor.

Mine wouldn't slip. Perhaps it was supposed to, but it never did. If you
needed to make a sharp turn forget it, you had to back up several times to
make the turn.

>
> Select-Trac is the part time version, with Command Trac and
> Rock Trac as additional variants. Slippery conditions only.
>
>
>

"Chris Phillipo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <2XHLb.9093$5V2.13628@attbi_s53>, "L0nD0t.$t0we11" <"L0nD0t.
> $t0we11"@ComcastDot.Net> says...
> > Hopefully they won't read YOUR posting, as you are exactly backwards.
> > Full time four wheel drive is one you can't disable. Part time
> > four wheel drive is one you can switch between two wheel drive
> > and four wheel drive.
> >
> > With full time four wheel drive, you need some means of allowing
> > the front and rear wheels to travel different distances...exactly
> > like you need for the left and right wheels of a normal 2wd vehicle.
> > The means for doing this varies from simple to complex and may include
> > the ability to shift driving force as needed. Full time 4wd vehicles
> > include the Jensen, Audi Quattro, Jaguar X-Type, Porsche Turbo AWD,
> > Mercury Mountaineer, etc. etc. and the full size Jeeps as an option.
> >
> > With part time 4wd, you may or may not have this and may or may not
> > have the ability to lock the front and rear together. Handy for
> > hard core offroading. Available on Ford Explorer, Jeep Wrangler,
> > and some full size Jeeps amongst many others.
> >
> > Rather than spread disinformation so vehemently, try watching
> > the movies at www.jeep.com.
> >
> >
> >
>
> I think he just made a mistake on what he had because the full time 4wd
> system jeep uses does not have the semi-traditional differential or
> viscous clutch arrangement most others have used. With full time 4wd
> it's a balancing act between crappy mileage (Jeep) and crappy 4wd
> performance (Honda) and it sounds like his was way more Jeep than Honda.


Sounds about right. I know there was no third differential, but I can see
where it could have been incorporated into the transfer case. I guess mine
was just a lemon, or perhaps they all were back then. I do know the reason I
pulled the tranny was because the front CV joint broke at the tranfer case
and went through the transmission case, which meant having it disassembled,
welded, and rebuilt.

>
> I actually did have a GMC S15 which was as he described, front and rear
> locked together, of course that was because the actuator failed and I
> couldn't get it out of 4WD. It exploded after 30 km on pavement despite
> my efforts to drive on the dirt shoulder as often as possible. Broke
> the front drive shaft u-join/yoke and blew the pinion seal out of the
> front end. It was a nice smooth ride home after that.


At least it didn't knock a hole in your tranny.

Roughly 1/9/04 13:47, Douglas A. Shrader's monkeys randomly typed:


>
> Why are you still wondering? I told you three days ago they bind and eat
> tires like candy from the scuffing.

Because your particular
vehicle had the BW Quadratrac that was called a full time
four wheel drive and may have had the vacuum
operated lock that set the torque split to 50-50 ["emergency drive"]
and had a 2:57 low available.

Put the wrong lube in the chain driven transfer case and it totally
lost the ability to provide slip between the front and rear...not
an uncommon boo boo. Plus the slip ability just sucked anyway.


QuadraTrac II is a full time 4wd, with a differential and a viscous
coupler between the front and rear that works better than the
old BW.

Roughly 1/9/04 14:26, Exit's monkeys randomly typed:
> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:

>> Why are you still wondering? I told you three days ago they bind and
>> eat tires like candy from the scuffing.

Not all of them, just the one on your 1978 Jeep. Current ones
don't.
>
> No, I'm wondering why anyone would buy a so-called full-time 4WD system that
> acts exactly as a part-time system used solely in 4WD with all the
> associated wear and fuel consumption. It might be called full0time, but
> clearly it isn't.
>

Because Doug is wrong and refuses to check facts.

"Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
> > "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >> Douglas A. Shrader wrote:
> >>> "Exit" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > surfaces?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Did you really have to post this exact same question four times?
> >>>
> >> It hasn't been answered yet, so yes. . . . . .
> >
> > I answered it every time, as soon as I read it. Asking four times in
> > a row without waiting for a response is silly, and beneath you.
> >
> No you didn't but as it turns out, that was because you didn't understand
> the full-time 4WD system you were decribing.

Well, I thought I did anyway.


>
> >
> >>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'm sure not all full time 4x4's eat tires like that Jeep did,
> >>>>>>> but they still have accelerated tire wear, now way around it.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Why? 200hp divided by 4 wheels driven is 50hp each, half that of
> >>>>>> 2WD. As long as you have a well designed 3 diff 4WD system wear
> >>>>>> will not increase over 2WD.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> See above.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> My tyres (with fulltime 4WD) last 40,000 miles and
> >>>>>>>> handling is unaffected. As for fuel consumption, the savings
> >>>>>>>> are very marginal from what I have experienced, perhaps there
> >>>>>>>> are some figures that would demonstrate the savings? As for
> >>>>>>>> wear and tear, well it must be a delicate vehicle if driving
> >>>>>>>> your 4WD in 4WD wears it out prematurely.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Drive a part time 4x4 and you wouldn't make such statements.
> >>>>>>> Tires, sure, you get 40,000 in fulltime, you might get 60,000 on
> >>>>>>> the same tires with part time, and your handling is affected,
> >>>>>>> you are just compensating for it. Milage varies greatly, large
> >>>>>>> decrease when driving in four wheel drive mode, even the owners
> >>>>>>> manuals will tell you that, not to mention the hit you see when
> >>>>>>> you refuel.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> I own a part-time 4WD LR Series 2. The tyres don't last any
> >>>>>> longer than my Discovery. I'm not compensating for the fact that
> >>>>>> my Disco handles
> >>>>> better -
> >>>>>> it handles better *because* it is 4WD. When I drive my SII in 2
> >>>>>> or 4WD the mileage varies by 1mpg at most.
> >>>>>
> > >>> And if you read my original post I said 4WD makes it easier but is
> >>> not required, whereapon you decided to say something silly.
> >>>
> >> You said no-one who was a good driver needs 4WD. I simply said the
> >> same applies to headlights.
> >
> > No, you don't need a 4x4 to handle patches of snow on an otherwise
> > clear road, or a spot of grease on the road, or water at an
> > intersection, and I think you know that. You were trying to dream up
> > scenarious to justify a fulltime 4x4 system but failed to list a
> > single good reason. Why not be honest and admit it's something you
> > want, instead of trying to deceive me? I'll understand.
> >
> Simply not true. Pretty much any surface can be driven on without
permanent
> 4WD, but it's easier and safer with much of the time.

Easier and safer, yes, but not required.

Why not just admit you
> steamed in shouting the odds without knowing how your 4WD system works,
I'll
> understand you know!

I know how mine works, we were just discussing two different things without
realizing it. I do hope we're straight now.


> > I call it fulltime because the manufacturers called it fulltime, and
> > they marketed it for use in all weather and road conditions,
> > including dry pavement.
> >
> Fully understood now.
>
> > It appears from your description to be
> >> part-time 4WD without the option of 2WD for road use which is
> >> amazing.
> >
> >
> > Millions were built and sold here, and many of the buyers loved them.
> > I did not.
> >
> I can fully understand you not liking it from the description.
>
> >>
> >>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> It is fair to say that your reasons are vaild to you and
> >>>>>> I respect that, I do suspect that the real problem is the lack of
> >>>>>> availability of decent permanent 4WD system in US vehicles. As
> >>>>>> you say, cars are cheaper in the US and purchased more on price
> >>>>>> than here in my experience which is why I thin low-tech is more
> >>>>>> acceptable as long as the price is also low.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You thin? ;-)
> >>>>
> >>>> Correct me if I'm wrong by all means - which vehciles in the US
> >>>> come with permanent 4WD?
> >>>
> >>> Permanet four wheel drive is the term I used for vehicles with three
> >>> diferentials. Full time four wheel drives included the Jeep I listed
> >>> in the first post and the others listed there as well. Now, why did
> >>> you ask this four times in four different posts all made by you at
> >>> the same time?
> >>
> >> Coz this is the 7th time you've skirted the question. . . . . . ;-)
> >
> > I have not skirted it even once, you simply repeated four times in a
> > row without waiting for a response. I think you understand now, if
> > not I doubt I can explain it any better, so take care and goodbye, I
> > hope ;-)
>
> You insisted many times that the full-time 4WD setup you were describing
had
> no centre diff, which it does, this is why the question never got a
> satisfactory answer.

Well, no, not that you could see. However I can see where it may have been
incorporated into the transfer case, so that blunder was mine, and I
apologize.

>
> To conclude, I agree with you - if that was the type full-time 4WD
available
> I too would prefer part-time, but I think a proper permanent 4WD system is
> on balance superior.

Perhaps I'll try one one my next truck, they do sound far superior to what I
had. I also hope the next time a thread like this starts I stay out of it.
;-)