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Adam Gorsuch

Active Member
hi ladies and gents.
I have a hard to explain issue so please bare with me.
I had my clutch changed two months ago, new hydraulics and mount too.
Shortly after I dropped the drive shaft as I felt the VCU was in its way out. This was better for me as I had a noticeable increase in fuel economy. It must of been shagged. I've kept it off and it's been all gravy.
Anyway the last few weeks it's developed a horrible bumping feeling when you dip and raise the clutch. It's hard to explain but it's almost feels the the engaging and disengaging of the engine causes it to move in its mounts. This can also be felt when engaging gear. As depending how much load the engine is under it may crunch slightly.
The track rod ends and drop links were shot as I bought cheap parts last year so they have been changed for Delphi parts which have made a lot of difference. I also changed the roll bar bushes for LR gen parts.
Yesterday I took it down to a local mot centre to get the wheels aligned. I had them check the wish bone bushes and ball joint and was told there was no play.
But he could feel the same bump feeling.
He said it could be an engine mount but I'd need to get it booked in. I want to take it back to the Land Rover place but I'd also like to have a look first. Any ideas what it could be?
 
Hi Adam
What engine do you have ? but it doe's sound like the lower engine mount, I had to change mine when I first bought it, (TD4 ) if you are ok with spanner easy job to do your self if you have ramps, Arctic2
 

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You say "horrible bumping feeling when you dip and raise the clutch" - do you mean at a standstill in neutral dipping and raising the clutch or coasting in gear and dip and raise the clutch with no gear change and no throttle?

You then say "can also be felt when engaging gear" - so is this with the clutch down, you put it in gear but do not raise the clutch - just the process of putting it in gear, or putting it in gear and lifting on the clutch? If its when you raise the clutch, does it do it only (or more so) when pulling away in first or throughout all gear changes? Worse going up or down gear?

When I first read, I also thought about the lower engine mount (between subframe and IRD support bracket) - they are probably put under more stress once the prop shafts have been removed. I'm wondering as well whether the main seal is leaking and you're getting oil on the clutch.

Is it K or L Series - I presume not TD4 as you reference the clutch mount.
 
It's a k series. No only when in motion and under load. If I'm on the motorway it doesn't do it, it seems to only do it at low speed. The clutch isn't slipping. It feels as if the engine is loose and moving back and forth and as such when I engage a gear after accelerating the it very slight crunches on occasion. It's hardly noticeable but it feels as if it's not lined up correctly. It I'm a bit gentler on the gas it doesn't happen. The other symptom is when I accelerate in a low gear say at about 10mph but then come of the gas it bumps as and it feels as if the engine is loose. Almost like rocking forward. I think the lose of the prop has made it all a bit less tight but atm I can't afford to change the VCU.
 
Sounds like the classic symptom for the lower tie bar large bush gone soft.
When the props are in place. The prop adds quite a degree of support the to engine. The bush is now taking all the drive torque, so is under huge stress.
 
The car will always feel less tight with the prop shaft off, especially if your VCU was on the way out as it would have been keeping everything ultra tight. I had a similar issue with my K series and the only cure was refitting the propshaft with my homebrew VCU.
 
Ok. I've fitted a new tie bar. It's made no difference that I can really notice. And short of buying a a full drive system, VCU, rear diff and IRU then I don't know what to do. It's now feeling as if the clutch is slipping. I didn't notice it before but if I'm on a hill, even if slightly and I'm pull away in first from stationary as the clutch engages it judders. Once it's full engaged it seems ok. It may be Revving slightly higher than normal. But I'm not sure. It doesn't smell though as if it's burning: I think the rear diff mount is also going. I only changed it last year. As when I pull away it bangs. The nose diving thing is really annoying. If I'm in first and driving in slow traffic as soon as I'm off the gas it dives forward. I can't really explain it.
 
Ok. I've got a couple of theories, but without looking at the car, they are only theories.
First off, the clutch shouldn't judder, but it is common on PG1 box if the correct installation procedure isn't followed to the letter.
This procedure includes cleaning the box spline, then lubricating with a molybdenum based lubricant.
The bearing slide on the box also needs cleaning and similar lubrication.
The box lever pivot needs the same treatment.
Doing all this will keep the clutch judder free for the life of the clutch.

I am thinking that from your description is something more sinister. I have a thought that the IRD has a substantial amount of play in the gears and bearings. This could be giving large amounts of driveline shunt. That is I think what you are describing in your post.
 
Last edited:
Adam Gorsuch said:
Ok. I've fitted a new tie bar. It's made no difference that I can really notice. And short of buying a a full drive system, VCU, rear diff and IRU then I don't know what to do. It's now feeling as if the clutch is slipping. I didn't notice it before but if I'm on a hill, even if slightly and I'm pull away in first from stationary as the clutch engages it judders. Once it's full engaged it seems ok. It may be Revving slightly higher than normal. But I'm not sure. It doesn't smell though as if it's burning: I think the rear diff mount is also going. I only changed it last year. As when I pull away it bangs. The nose diving thing is really annoying. If I'm in first and driving in slow traffic as soon as I'm off the gas it dives forward. I can't really explain it.
Click to expand...
Hi Adam,
If it is juddering (from the clutch - and it feels to be revving more than normal) then you definitely have an issue with the clutch itself.
Rear crank oil seal or input shaft seal causing contamination of the clutch can and does cause this. Also a damaged pressure plate finger spring area can cause this. Slippage is usually a clutch at the end of it's life. Juddering with or without slippage is usually oil contamination.
Sounds like the box needs to come out unfortunately.:(
It is a worth a quick look to ensure the clutch operating arm is moving correctly when you depress the clutch - get someone to operate the clutch and have a look at the slave cylinder and operating arm / lever.
Try quickly releasing the clutch from full depression and ensure the lever arm moves promptly back to it's static position. If it doesn't return promptly or partially sticks then that can cause slippage and sudden / harsh take up also. Easy enough to check though.
 
I hate to say it mate but your describing all the issues I had with my K series. It felt like the engine seemed to be swinging forwards and backwards with the propshaft off, but refitting it only partially fixed the clutch judder. I had to replace the clutch to sort that. :(
The car had a tow bar with caravan lights connection and when I had the gearbox off it was obvious the clutch had been replaced before with a cheap nasty one.
 
The clutch is new, only fitted about 6-8 weeks ago. I think you may be right in that the IRD I think its on its way out but I just can't afford a new one or even a refurb. I am lucky about one thing though. I've recently joined the army reserve and the unit I've joined is a mechanics one so hopefully they will be able to help.
 
Adam Gorsuch said:
The clutch is new, only fitted about 6-8 weeks ago. I think you may be right in that the IRD I think its on its way out but I just can't afford a new one or even a refurb. I am lucky about one thing though. I've recently joined the army reserve and the unit I've joined is a mechanics one so hopefully they will be able to help.
Click to expand...
Just because the clutch is new does not mean for one minute it is not the issue. - or was the problem there BEFORE the clutch ?
I would be doubtful as to an IRD issue. It would have to be in a seriously bad way that would generally show other major issues. The crown wheel pinion area is not in play with the prop off, hence it would have to be the very large gear set on the diff / concentric shaft and associated output shaft / layshaft. If it was that bad, then you would have noticeable play / movement in the IRD side CV joint (inner) where it enters the IRD . This also is not going to cause any 'juddering' or 'higher revving' in any way unless accompanied by horrendous mechanical noises.
You can check the CV to IRD for play but your symptoms do not appear to me to originate from here.
IMO none of what you describe is indicative of an IRD issue.
 
Adam Gorsuch said:
The clutch is new, only fitted about 6-8 weeks ago. I think you may be right in that the IRD I think its on its way out but I just can't afford a new one or even a refurb. I am lucky about one thing though. I've recently joined the army reserve and the unit I've joined is a mechanics one so hopefully they will be able to help.
Click to expand...
I think from what others have said here the IRD failing is a very noticeable mechanical noise.
Who replaced the clutch? Did they use a good quality spare? Did they grease everything properly?
The clutch I replaced was new too but definitely cheapo and possibly not fitted correctly.
Oops, Joe beat me to it.
 
Alibro said:
I think from what others have said here the IRD failing is a very noticeable mechanical noise.
Who replaced the clutch? Did they use a good quality spare? Did they grease everything properly?
The clutch I replaced was new too but definitely cheapo and possibly not fitted correctly.
Oops, Joe beat me to it.
Click to expand...
lol, great minds ... :p
 
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