Traction Control Question - 2003 TD4

Afternoon fellas,

Ive got a bit of a question about my freebie, ive been reading up on how it handles traction control and comparing it to my Dad's Disco 3 TDV6 which has DSC.

Ok so i know the braking system on my freelander should brake spinning wheels, thus shifting torque through the differential to the wheel that has most traction and maintaining road holding, but i must say, living out here in the Czech Republic and getting to play with lots of snow and all, that its never worked for me like that. My question is, is there a problem somewhere?

1) My ABS works no problems - checked
2) My Hill descent works no problems - checked
3) My VCU works no issues - checked
4) When front wheels loose traction, TC light comes on and rear kick in

But whenever i speed up with a fair bit of welly on snow, and wheels start slipping, my brakes never come on to slow the wheels down - is that normal? (on the disco it simply will not allow slip...brakes the wheel straight away - or maybe its because im BOOTING it it doesnt work? since it knows im going beyond minimim speed for TC?)

Also, in a turn, when my rear starts to slip, the disco applies breakes and keeps everything smooth (too electronically smooth but none the less) - my freelander will happily drift its way around any corner slipping as it goes - its this normal?

Basically should i be looking for a TC fault somewhere? Im not sure what situation it should work in, or if there is a way i can test if it works? Whats normal for a freebie?

Any advice, ideas, anything, welcome most work on the car i do myself (thought UK dealers were bad? come see the ones here) so i would like to know where to start or if this is a total non issue.

Thanks

I don't read anything in your post that sounds abnormal. There's been a few people that have noticed the rear end drift in the recent snow.
Regarding TC remember it doesn't detect slip as such but wheel speed differential so if you aggressively spin all wheels it may not detect it.

Ahh thanks for that.

So would i be right in thinking then that if my rear right wheel is firmly on the ground not slipping, the left is going ape**** (lots of round and round), then the right should be braked slightly by the system - provided im not putting in quite a bit of boot?

In which case the bit where i put my foot down to see if TC switches on when wheels spin is the bit that also might disable it....

DefUnct said:

Ahh thanks for that.

So would i be right in thinking then that if my rear right wheel is firmly on the ground not slipping, the left is going ape**** (lots of round and round), then the right should be braked slightly by the system - provided im not putting in quite a bit of boot?

In which case the bit where i put my foot down to see if TC switches on when wheels spin is the bit that also might disable it....

Click to expand...

NO. when your right rear wheel is on firm ground and not slipping and the left is going ape****, the left should be braked to stop it spinning and direct torque to the right.

The traction control system on the Freelander is designed to keep you on the straight and narrow, and to overcome poor driving conditions that you would normally expect to encounter and deliver you and your passengers safely. If you boot it, it is not designed to deal with that, as you are trying to deliberately take the system outside of it's operating paramenters. I'm not surprised you can get arse end out with it, mine does it too in the snow or mud if you floor it hard. But then, although it goes arse out, it is still nowhere near as bad a response if you tried booting a conventional 2 wheel drive car.

100% totally concur with Opt Prime.

Can get a slight rear drift if driven beyond what should be done in those conditions.

As a comparison I took my partners Front wheel drive Ford Puma (wit it's own limited traction control system) out on Icy Roads I had just negotiated easily in the Freebie.

Damn thing was all over the place, to the point of actually scaring me - and that was with easy careful driving.

In snow/ice keep it slow and measured - nothing to excess, easy on easy off.
I was amazed how the Freelander made extreme conditions feel almost like driving on dry tarmac. Particularly the TD4 Auto - use little throttle and let the low down torque plus the Auto Torque Converter do all the work.

I have had Rangies and Discos and I reckon that the Freelander carries less weight and therefore less dynamics when it starts going a bit wrong

Thanks for all the explanations and advice dont get me wrong, i really dont have a problem with freebie handling, its never ever let me down, and i simply wouldnt want a two wheel drive car again.

It's just ive had the freebie 5 years now and never been shy to take it out and about, especially here in CZ where offroad areas are easy to find and great fun, but i wanted to know WHAT its doing, for my own curiosity and wanting to know why in some situations it behaved differently from expectations, not wrong, just different

Where does the freebie TD4 get its speed reading from (ie sensor)?

DefUnct said:

Where does the freebie TD4 get its speed reading from (ie sensor)?

Click to expand...

From the ECM via the ABS ECU....

Cheers fellers

Right this has still been bugging me, because i keep noticing small things that just dont seem to add up, at least for me.

So, i was out on a wet mud/grass hill, looong grass, and moving up this hill resulted in the TC kicking in (so far so peachy).

Then, i notice that ive hit an especially steep bit and im almost stationary with the rear left wheel going ape (this is now official terminology for me, mmkay?) and one front one also i think, or both moving slowly forward, i dont recall.

Now this was not me forcing it to spin, and yet at NO point did i sense the brakes (edit: because i really should not forget how to spell brakes after 4 years away from the UK) or ABS judder or anything kick in on any spinning wheel, and i certainly think that since i was using very little throttle i was not forcing the wheel to spin past 40km/h. That cant be right can it?

Hummm, I supect the TC is confused. It is expecting one wheel to speed up in relation to the other three. Then it will brake that wheel to shunt torque to the other wheels. I get the impression that it is designed with the assumption that under severe slip the driver will throttle back and control the problem, not the TC. Therefore to have one wheel stopped and three slipping looks like a sensor fault.

The fundamental point here is the Freelander does not have traction control. True traction control will automatically stand down the throttle demand if a driving wheel is rotating significantly faster than the average of the others. The Freelander has automatic power distribution steerage, electronic diff lock, call it what you will. But if you hoof the throttle on soft ground the system will control the power distribution until all wheels are spinning at a similar speed. The fact you are in a four wheel spin is not an issue. You're the driver you sort it out, is the attitude of the design. It is a get you out of trouble system only.

Thanks for the reply, i don't really expect it to DO very much at all, and im not looking for it to be a great and 100% traction system, but my concern is it just seems to be doing nothing at all and i like making sure things work on me motor. I do spend a lot of time out here on country tracks, hills, grass, mud, smaller rocks and stones, forests and all over the place really...so, although i get by fine as it is with the hippo, id like to make sure all is as should be.

If i wanted to check or inspect the TC system, i should be concentrating on sensors (given what ive been describing)? Anyone have any ideal what sort of testing would be needed to see which bit is not working right? Or, alternatively to find out that everything is in fact working right and i'm just a numpty?

Last question, would a TC sensor problem not show up as a fault code?

The TC light should be on when TC is active, it only operates below approximately 30mph.

I think you would need T4 or similar to interrogate the ABS ECU for stored fault codes but if there is a failed sensor or circuit the 'three amigos', TC, ABS and HDC lights will illuminate.

Personaly I haven't taken our Freelander off road so I can't comment on how noticable the TC is during operation.

Who defined "true traction control"?
The whole point of the Freelander system is that it will not rob you of the powere you need to, say, climb a steep slippery bank, but merely try to ensure that that powere goes to the wheels tht have got grip. In my experience it usually does this very well, but it is not foolproof.
The ones that reduce the power are intended to kill wheel spin caused by heavy footedness on a hard surface, and have now evolved into things like dynamic stability control etc.