tdi intercooler jammed after 200km (125mls)

Hi,

first, my appologies for my bad english and the inappropriate technical
terms I might use.

In Summer 2001, after 120.000km (75.000mls) with my '93 Discovery tdi, I
got my intercooler and turbo replaced - according to the mechanic (BMW -
dark times) some valve got burned so both couldn't be fixed.
Later (autum 2004) after 198.000km (124.000mls), I
was again suffering of missing power and really, really black exhaust
gases. A newly found LR-specialized mechanic told me, that the
intercooler was just jammed with the remains of the exhaust gases and
that this could be fixed by rinsing it. So, after they rinsed the
intercooler all seemed to be well - but just for 200km (125mls). Now,
again, there's no power and the exhaust gases are dark black.

So I'm suspecting, that there's something else wrong with the engine.
Has anyone an idea what could be the cause? I will appreciate any
comment or hint what to check to find or rule out the real problem.

Thanks,
Wolfgang

"Wolfgang O. Hielscher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hi,
>
> first, my appologies for my bad english and the inappropriate technical
> terms I might use.
>
> In Summer 2001, after 120.000km (75.000mls) with my '93 Discovery tdi, I
> got my intercooler and turbo replaced - according to the mechanic (BMW -
> dark times) some valve got burned so both couldn't be fixed.
> Later (autum 2004) after 198.000km (124.000mls), I
> was again suffering of missing power and really, really black exhaust
> gases. A newly found LR-specialized mechanic told me, that the intercooler
> was just jammed with the remains of the exhaust gases and that this could
> be fixed by rinsing it. So, after they rinsed the intercooler all seemed
> to be well - but just for 200km (125mls). Now, again, there's no power and
> the exhaust gases are dark black.
>
> So I'm suspecting, that there's something else wrong with the engine. Has
> anyone an idea what could be the cause? I will appreciate any comment or
> hint what to check to find or rule out the real problem.
>
> Thanks,
> Wolfgang

It may be that your intercooler is filling with oil. This may be coming from
the turbo oil seals. You do look after your turbo by idling the engine
before shutting down to let it slow down and cool every time, do you not?

Huw

In article <[email protected]>,
"Wolfgang O. Hielscher" <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> first, my appologies for my bad english and the inappropriate technical
> terms I might use.

Don't, it's perfect

> In Summer 2001, after 120.000km (75.000mls) with my '93 Discovery tdi, I
> got my intercooler and turbo replaced - according to the mechanic (BMW -
> dark times) some valve got burned so both couldn't be fixed.
> Later (autum 2004) after 198.000km (124.000mls), I
> was again suffering of missing power and really, really black exhaust
> gases. A newly found LR-specialized mechanic told me, that the
> intercooler was just jammed with the remains of the exhaust gases and
> that this could be fixed by rinsing it. So, after they rinsed the
> intercooler all seemed to be well - but just for 200km (125mls). Now,
> again, there's no power and the exhaust gases are dark black.
>
> So I'm suspecting, that there's something else wrong with the engine.
> Has anyone an idea what could be the cause? I will appreciate any
> comment or hint what to check to find or rule out the real problem.

Could this be something to do with the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system?

Dave Hi,

Wolfgang's Tdi must be a 200 one (I think he quoted that it is a 1993 model
year) so it SHOULD not have EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) but then again
the EGR point is something that is worth checking.

Wolfgang does your can have a black sound deadening cover on top of the
engine coming from the factory? If yes then most probably your Tdi is a 300
and it SHOULD have EGR. Another thing to check so as to establish whether
your vehicle is fitted with a 200 or a 300 Tdi engine is to check how many
belts it has for the ancillaries (the alternator, power steering pump and if
fitted the air condition compressor)
If it has a big, long, fat one (no dirty thoughts please) for the power
steering pump and the alternator then it is a 300Tdi.
If it has two small and thin ones (one for the power steering pump and
another one for the alternator) then your engine is a 200Tdi.

You can also check the type and form of the air filter housing. If the air
filter housing is looking like a barrel then it is a 200Tdi, if it is
rectangular, almost square actually, then it is a 300Tdi one.

--------------

Now for the black smoke and intercooler stuffing.

Have you checked the condition of your air filter's element? Sometimes when
the air filter gets TOO dirty you may end up producing black smoke from your
exhaust when you press the accelerator pedal to pick up speed and
acceleration.

From your description I would also suspect damaged oil seals or maybe
damaged bearings on your turbocharger.
May I suggest you remove the hose leading from the turbocharger to the
intercooler, cleaning it up and the re-installing it and having a drive?

If you find lots of oil after about 100 Km then most probably the oil seals
and bearings inside your turbocharger are gone and need either to be
replaced (hopefully) or you will be in need of a new or reconditioned
turbocharger unit.

ONE POINT OF ATTENTION.

If you end up repairing OR replacing your turbocharger be EXTRA CAREFUL on
priming the new/repaired turbocharger with fresh engine oil right before you
start the engine for the first time.
A lot of turbocharger specialists or car mechanics FORGET (?) to do so (just
because it is time consuming) and the result is premature but significant
wear on the new seals and bearing due to the turbine spinning dry until the
engine's oil finds its way through the oil feeding hoses to them (the seals
and bearings). If they are primed in advanced they spin freely and well
lubricated and this ensures a proper start of operating life for them.

Another thing to make sure is the check with them that the turbocharger's
turbine is balanced after they replace the seals and bearings.

----

One more thing to check is that the engine oil breather and recirculation
system is clean. This mainly consists of the black barrel shaped thing
located to the left side of the engine (almost between the fuel pump and the
cylinder head) when you see the engine from the front of the vehicle. This
barrel shaped canister collects the oil fumes emitted from the cylinder head
and sends them back to the engine via a hose leading to the oil sump. It
also has another hose coming from the air filter's housing. I would suggest
you remove all of them (the hoses and canister) and give them a thorough
rinse and cleaning with carburator cleaning spray or plain diesel fuel.

----

78.000 Km (between the 2001 made 120.000 and the 2004 made 198.000 ones)
sounds a bit short for a properly repaired or new turbocharger to have died
on you, UNLESS you do not pay attention on letting the turbine cool and spin
down before you switch the engine off. Alternatively (if you do not have
enough time to let it cool and spin down) then it is a good practice to
drive below the turbocharger's spooling rpm range (that is above 2000 rpm)
for a minute or so before you switch the engine off.


Take care and Happy New Year to everybody.
Pantelis



"David French" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:david.french-6FD868.23412901012005@no-dns-yet-212-23-3-119.zen.co.uk...

> In article <[email protected]>,
> "Wolfgang O. Hielscher" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > first, my appologies for my bad english and the inappropriate technical
> > terms I might use.
>
> Don't, it's perfect
>
> > In Summer 2001, after 120.000km (75.000mls) with my '93 Discovery tdi, I
> > got my intercooler and turbo replaced - according to the mechanic (BMW -
> > dark times) some valve got burned so both couldn't be fixed.
> > Later (autum 2004) after 198.000km (124.000mls), I
> > was again suffering of missing power and really, really black exhaust
> > gases. A newly found LR-specialized mechanic told me, that the
> > intercooler was just jammed with the remains of the exhaust gases and
> > that this could be fixed by rinsing it. So, after they rinsed the
> > intercooler all seemed to be well - but just for 200km (125mls). Now,
> > again, there's no power and the exhaust gases are dark black.
> >
> > So I'm suspecting, that there's something else wrong with the engine.
> > Has anyone an idea what could be the cause? I will appreciate any
> > comment or hint what to check to find or rule out the real problem.
>
> Could this be something to do with the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system?

Hej Pantelis,
hej David!

Pantelis Giamarellos wrote:
>
> "David French" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:david.french-6FD868.23412901012005@no-dns-yet-212-23-3-119.zen.co.uk...
>
>>In article <[email protected]>,
>> "Wolfgang O. Hielscher" <[email protected]> wrote:
[snip]
>>> So, after they rinsed the
>>>intercooler all seemed to be well - but just for 200km (125mls). Now,
>>>again, there's no power and the exhaust gases are dark black.
>>>
>>>So I'm suspecting, that there's something else wrong with the engine.
>>>Has anyone an idea what could be the cause? I will appreciate any
>>>comment or hint what to check to find or rule out the real problem.
>>
>>Could this be something to do with the Exhaust Gas Recirculation system?
>
> Dave Hi,
>
> Wolfgang's Tdi must be a 200 one (I think he quoted that it is a 1993 model
> year) so it SHOULD not have EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) but then again
> the EGR point is something that is worth checking.
>
> Wolfgang does your can have a black sound deadening cover on top of the
> engine coming from the factory? If yes then most probably your Tdi is a 300
> and it SHOULD have EGR. Another thing to check so as to establish whether
> your vehicle is fitted with a 200 or a 300 Tdi engine is to check how many
> belts it has for the ancillaries (the alternator, power steering pump and if
> fitted the air condition compressor)
> If it has a big, long, fat one (no dirty thoughts please) for the power
> steering pump and the alternator then it is a 300Tdi.
> If it has two small and thin ones (one for the power steering pump and
> another one for the alternator) then your engine is a 200Tdi.
>
> You can also check the type and form of the air filter housing. If the air
> filter housing is looking like a barrel then it is a 200Tdi, if it is
> rectangular, almost square actually, then it is a 300Tdi one.

Sorry for not being specific: Having two belts and a barrel shaped air
filter housing the engine looks like an 200Tdi.

If I got you right, there SHOULDN'T be a EGR. Just out of curiosity:
What sort of problem with the EGR could lead to the effect I described?


> Now for the black smoke and intercooler stuffing.
>
> Have you checked the condition of your air filter's element? Sometimes when
> the air filter gets TOO dirty you may end up producing black smoke from your
> exhaust when you press the accelerator pedal to pick up speed and
> acceleration.

The air filter's element was the first thing I checked - it looked
pretty dusty so I replaced it but with no remarkable effect.


> From your description I would also suspect damaged oil seals or maybe
> damaged bearings on your turbocharger.
> May I suggest you remove the hose leading from the turbocharger to the
> intercooler, cleaning it up and the re-installing it and having a drive?
>
> If you find lots of oil after about 100 Km then most probably the oil seals
> and bearings inside your turbocharger are gone and need either to be
> replaced (hopefully) or you will be in need of a new or reconditioned
> turbocharger unit.
>
> ONE POINT OF ATTENTION.
>
> If you end up repairing OR replacing your turbocharger be EXTRA CAREFUL on
> priming the new/repaired turbocharger with fresh engine oil right before you
> start the engine for the first time.
> A lot of turbocharger specialists or car mechanics FORGET (?) to do so (just
> because it is time consuming) and the result is premature but significant
> wear on the new seals and bearing due to the turbine spinning dry until the
> engine's oil finds its way through the oil feeding hoses to them (the seals
> and bearings). If they are primed in advanced they spin freely and well
> lubricated and this ensures a proper start of operating life for them.
>
> Another thing to make sure is the check with them that the turbocharger's
> turbine is balanced after they replace the seals and bearings.

Okay, I will clean the hose and look for oil after 100+km.

The warning you made, that experts and mechanics don't really care about
their custumers engines somehow frightens me, because I made similar
experiences. Why is it so hard to get real service when the other way
round I have to pay real money?


> One more thing to check is that the engine oil breather and recirculation
> system is clean. This mainly consists of the black barrel shaped thing
> located to the left side of the engine (almost between the fuel pump and the
> cylinder head) when you see the engine from the front of the vehicle. This
> barrel shaped canister collects the oil fumes emitted from the cylinder head
> and sends them back to the engine via a hose leading to the oil sump. It
> also has another hose coming from the air filter's housing. I would suggest
> you remove all of them (the hoses and canister) and give them a thorough
> rinse and cleaning with carburator cleaning spray or plain diesel fuel.

All right, I'll check and clean it.

Do I get this right: If the breather pipes aren't clean then the (oil)
pressure in the engine rises and somehow (?) pushes oil out of the block
into the intercooler?!


> 78.000 Km (between the 2001 made 120.000 and the 2004 made 198.000 ones)
> sounds a bit short for a properly repaired or new turbocharger to have died
> on you, UNLESS you do not pay attention on letting the turbine cool and spin
> down before you switch the engine off. Alternatively (if you do not have
> enough time to let it cool and spin down) then it is a good practice to
> drive below the turbocharger's spooling rpm range (that is above 2000 rpm)
> for a minute or so before you switch the engine off.

I must admit that I wasn't aware that letting cooling and spinning down
the turbine is so crucial for the lifetime of the turbocharger. (Huw, in
another answer to my posting, also pointed that out.)
Albeit being unaware, I normally have some slow paced 1-2km before
reaching my destination.

Just to get a better feeling: How long should the engine idle to cool
and spin down the turbine?


Thanks, especially Pantelis for the detailled reply.

My best wishes fo 2005,
Wolfgang

"Wolfgang O. Hielscher" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Hej Pantelis,
> hej David!
>
>
> I must admit that I wasn't aware that letting cooling and spinning down
> the turbine is so crucial for the lifetime of the turbocharger. (Huw, in
> another answer to my posting, also pointed that out.)
> Albeit being unaware, I normally have some slow paced 1-2km before
> reaching my destination.
>
> Just to get a better feeling: How long should the engine idle to cool and
> spin down the turbine?
>

After a long journey, maybe two minutes straight off a motorway but with
your 1km slow pace end to a journey, just 15 seconds or so should be good.
Stalling an engine under load can kill a turbo also.
Newer turbo's will be water cooled but I don't think that these were fitted
to either 200 or 300TDi engines. At least, I am certain that they did not
have the modern facility of water pumping through the turbo for a period
after engine shut-down. Even this type should not be stalled and should be
idled for at least 10 seconds in order for the turbine to slow while oil is
still flowing through its bearings.

People who manage to kill turbochargers will find that cylinder heads soon
follow to the scrapheap.

Your problem could be something entirely different of course.

Huw

On 2005-01-02, Huw <hedydd> wrote:

> Even this type should not be stalled and should be idled for at
> least 10 seconds in order for the turbine to slow while oil is still
> flowing through its bearings.

I've often heard some people state this but it's never really seemed
vital to me, is there any firm evidence that this is really required
unless you rev the engine high just before switching off or stall it
at high revs? If the revs are extremely low and the engine is idled
even for a couple of seconds before shutdown I'd have thought that the
turbo wouldn't be moving significantly as it doesn't spin at a
significant speed unless the engine is revving at about 2,000 RPM
(estimated - no rev counter) under load. You certainly don't hear it
spooling up if you rev it to over 2,000 RPM in neutral.

The advice I've had from mechanics on the Landy and my other cars (all
my cars have turbos) is that you don't really need to worry about it
unless you shut off the engine when the turbo is spooled up (which
requires high unloaded revs or medium-low loaded revs), and you should
idle the engine for 30 seconds to a minute if you have been ragging
the engine like crazy as the turbo heats up and the oil can carbonise
if it's not being circulated.

I've only had one turbo fail so far and that was on a car that's done
just over 100,000 miles, six previous owners and is of a type that
would have been ragged hugely by all six. It also gets so hot you can
see the glowing exhausts at night casting an orange glow on the
ground. Certainly not the case with the landy or the old audi TDi.

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

"Ian Rawlings" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On 2005-01-02, Huw <hedydd> wrote:
>
>> Even this type should not be stalled and should be idled for at
>> least 10 seconds in order for the turbine to slow while oil is still
>> flowing through its bearings.
>
> I've often heard some people state this but it's never really seemed
> vital to me,

It is not vital. It is advisable for long term reliability at best and short
term reliability at worse.
No one forces anyone to treat anything mechanical properly and many don't
and some of these complain loudly about the cost of their motoring.

Huw

"Wolfgang O. Hielscher" <[email protected]> wrote:

>Just to get a better feeling: How long should the engine idle to cool
>and spin down the turbine?

I would like to extend the question; is this recommended for all kinds
of turbocharged engines, in my case a 2.5TD (should be 19J) engine?



regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt

>>Just to get a better feeling: How long should the engine idle to cool
>>and spin down the turbine?

In normal use all that it takes is the time it takes to apply park
brake, release seat belt, check for open windows, straighten wig etc. -
10 seconds or so. If the engine has just operated at a high power factor
then extend this to the about a minute.

> I would like to extend the question; is this recommended for all kinds
> of turbocharged engines, in my case a 2.5TD (should be 19J) engine?

Yes!

Hot abusive shutdown is not the only problem affecting turbos. Those who
insist in applying high revs at start up have the same problems with
turbo bearing wear.

Those who cannot see the sense (or have so far been lucky in avoiding
damage) in allowing oil to circulate both at start up and shut down
might like to investigate those devices that use the normal engine oil
pressure to provide a reserve of 'high' pressure oil which is
automatically released during these critical moments.

On 2005-01-03, Huw <hedydd> wrote:

> No one forces anyone to treat anything mechanical properly and many don't
> and some of these complain loudly about the cost of their motoring.

Yes, no-one told me I would have to put fuel in the damned thing when
I bought it!

Ah well, back to valve grinding, damned boring job....

--
For every expert, there is an equal but opposite expert

"Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>>>Just to get a better feeling: How long should the engine idle to cool and
>>>spin down the turbine?
>
> In normal use all that it takes is the time it takes to apply park brake,
> release seat belt, check for open windows, straighten wig etc. - 10
> seconds or so. If the engine has just operated at a high power factor then
> extend this to the about a minute.
>
>> I would like to extend the question; is this recommended for all kinds
>> of turbocharged engines, in my case a 2.5TD (should be 19J) engine?
>
> Yes!
>
> Hot abusive shutdown is not the only problem affecting turbos. Those who
> insist in applying high revs at start up have the same problems with
> turbo bearing wear.
>
> Those who cannot see the sense (or have so far been lucky in avoiding
> damage) in allowing oil to circulate both at start up and shut down
> might like to investigate those devices that use the normal engine oil
> pressure to provide a reserve of 'high' pressure oil which is
> automatically released during these critical moments.
>
>
>
>

Those that cannot see the sense won't and those that can have no need.

Huw

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 14:42:45 +0000, Dougal wrote:

> In normal use all that it takes is the time it takes to apply park
> brake, release seat belt, check for open windows, straighten wig
> etc. - 10 seconds or so.

Then bear in mind that the chances are you'll have just maneuvered
into a parking space at little more than idle.

> If the engine has just operated at a high power factor then extend
> this to the about a minute.

How many times do you stop immediatly after blasting down the motorway
or main road? Slip roads and parking all take up time.
--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Dougal <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

>Yes!
>
>Hot abusive shutdown is not the only problem affecting turbos. Those who
>insist in applying high revs at start up have the same problems with
>turbo bearing wear.

This one I already knew, from my friends Renault R5 alpine turbo, back
in the eighties He killed one turbo, not listening to the previous
owners hints.

>Those who cannot see the sense (or have so far been lucky in avoiding
>damage) in allowing oil to circulate both at start up and shut down
>might like to investigate those devices that use the normal engine oil
>pressure to provide a reserve of 'high' pressure oil which is
>automatically released during these critical moments.

Do not worry. I see the sense. I know (so far) how this stuff works,
just did not realize that it also applies when parking the car. But
one never stops learning!




regards - Ralph

--

Want to get in touch? http://www.radio-link.net/whereisralph.txt

On Monday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Dave Liquorice" wrote:

> On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 14:42:45 +0000, Dougal wrote:
>
> > In normal use all that it takes is the time it takes to apply park
> > brake, release seat belt, check for open windows, straighten wig
> > etc. - 10 seconds or so.
>
> Then bear in mind that the chances are you'll have just maneuvered
> into a parking space at little more than idle.
>
> > If the engine has just operated at a high power factor then extend
> > this to the about a minute.
>
> How many times do you stop immediatly after blasting down the motorway
> or main road? Slip roads and parking all take up time.

I used to run an American-built tractor with an Exhaust Gas Temperature
gauge. Shutdown on that was specified in terms of temperature. It's
not just oil in the bearings, it's letting things cool down. As I
recall, it tended to work out as you describe. Maybe a bit longer, but
it was a big engine.

--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

Wrought under license granted by Her Majesty's Apostropher Royal AD MMIV

Wolfgang thank you for your kind words.

It is just in the nature of this discussion group to provide help and
assistance to fellow LR enthusiasts around the world so I did nothing more
than what all other fellow members and listers would do.

Unfortunately I managed to erase your posting with the question you had for
me so I would like to kindly ask you to repeat it and I hope I, or another
lister, will be able to provide you with some useful input.

Take care and Happy New Year to everybody in the group.
Pantelis Giamarellos
LAND ROVER CLUB OF GREECE

On or around Mon, 03 Jan 2005 16:37:07 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 14:42:45 +0000, Dougal wrote:
>
>> In normal use all that it takes is the time it takes to apply park
>> brake, release seat belt, check for open windows, straighten wig
>> etc. - 10 seconds or so.
>
>Then bear in mind that the chances are you'll have just maneuvered
>into a parking space at little more than idle.
>
>> If the engine has just operated at a high power factor then extend
>> this to the about a minute.
>
>How many times do you stop immediatly after blasting down the motorway
>or main road? Slip roads and parking all take up time.

not only turbos, either - apparently, quite a few Commer 2-strokes were
killed by not letting 'em cool down enough after hammering up the then-new
M1 at the heady speed of about 45 flat out and the pulling into the
services. In that case, it was a hot-running engine and if shut down too
hot then the thermal stresses damaged the head.

'course, at the time, most of the wagons had Gardner or AEC or Leyland
engines that were flat out at about 1800 rpm, or if you had more money a
Rolls 220. I don't know what the 2-strokes (Foden had one an' all, dunno if
it was related or separate design off hand) ran at but it was faster and
hotter than "normal" truck engines of the day.



--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.fsnet.co.uk my opinions are just that
Soon shall thy arm, unconquered steam! afar Drag the slow barge, or
drive the rapid car; Or on wide-waving wings expanded bear the
flying chariot through the field of air.- Erasmus Darwin (1731-1802)

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 17:43:24 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>not only turbos, either - apparently, quite a few Commer 2-strokes were
>killed by not letting 'em cool down enough after hammering up the then-new
>M1 at the heady speed of about 45 flat out and the pulling into the
>services. In that case, it was a hot-running engine and if shut down too
>hot then the thermal stresses damaged the head.

My understanding was that the commer two stroke fitted in trucks was
the ts3, another opposed piston engine with no head. I have never had
anything to do with these engines but they seem to have had a
reputation for blowing up. I think it is much the same design as the
multi fuel engine in a 434.

In general two stroke diesels sound like they are about to burst
because they have twice the firing strokes.

I once drove a detroit V8 two stroke and the noise scared me.

AJH

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 09:03:40 +0000 (GMT), David G. Bell wrote:

> I used to run an American-built tractor with an Exhaust Gas
> Temperature gauge. Shutdown on that was specified in terms of
> temperature. It's not just oil in the bearings, it's letting things
> cool down.

Aye, gas turbine engines in helos etc run down to "idle" and leave
them there for a minute or longer before switching off.

Strikes me that with the amount of automagics that are in modern
vehicles that they ought to shut themselves down as and when they
sense they are ready. The most I've seen of this is the occasional car
that keeps it's fan running after the engine has stopped.

I guess there would need to be an "emergency" stop button as well
somewhere in case you really wanted the thing to stop *now* or if the
automagics failed...

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail

Hej Pantelis!

Pantelis Giamarellos wrote
> Wolfgang thank you for your kind words.
>
> It is just in the nature of this discussion group to provide help and
> assistance to fellow LR enthusiasts around the world so I did nothing more
> than what all other fellow members and listers would do.

Due to my (obviously) limited technical knowledge I will probably not be
able to contribute to as much as I take from this group, I'm sorry. So
the least thing I can do is express my gratitude.
But yes, lurking around here for some time, I found this group both
very helpful and entertaining.


> Unfortunately I managed to erase your posting with the question you had for
> me so I would like to kindly ask you to repeat it and I hope I, or another
> lister, will be able to provide you with some useful input.

Here's a repost of my posting (hope it don't gets scambled).
My last question, how long to idle the engine to cool down the turbo,
started some discussions - intersting...


Cheers,
Wolfgang

<REPOST>
Hej Pantelis,
hej David!

Pantelis Giamarellos wrote:
>

> "David French" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:david.french-6FD868.23412901012005@no-dns-yet-212-23-3-119.
> zen.co.uk...
>
>> In article <[email protected]>,
>> "Wolfgang O. Hielscher" <[email protected]> wrote:

[snip]

>>> So, after they rinsed the
>>> intercooler all seemed to be well - but just for 200km (125mls).
>>> Now, again, there's no power and the exhaust gases are dark
>>> black.
>>>
>>> So I'm suspecting, that there's something else wrong with the
>>> engine. Has anyone an idea what could be the cause? I will
>>> appreciate any comment or hint what to check to find or rule out
>>> the real problem.
>>
>>
>> Could this be something to do with the Exhaust Gas Recirculation
>> system?
>
>
> Dave Hi,
>
> Wolfgang's Tdi must be a 200 one (I think he quoted that it is a 1993
> model year) so it SHOULD not have EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) but
> then again the EGR point is something that is worth checking.
>
> Wolfgang does your can have a black sound deadening cover on top of
> the engine coming from the factory? If yes then most probably your Tdi
> is a 300 and it SHOULD have EGR. Another thing to check so as to
> establish whether your vehicle is fitted with a 200 or a 300 Tdi
> engine is to check how many belts it has for the ancillaries (the
> alternator, power steering pump and if fitted the air condition
> compressor) If it has a big, long, fat one (no dirty thoughts please)
> for the power steering pump and the alternator then it is a 300Tdi.
> If it has two small and thin ones (one for the power steering pump and
> another one for the alternator) then your engine is a 200Tdi.
>
> You can also check the type and form of the air filter housing. If the
> air filter housing is looking like a barrel then it is a 200Tdi, if it
> is rectangular, almost square actually, then it is a 300Tdi one.


Sorry for not being specific: Having two belts and a barrel shaped air
filter housing the engine looks like an 200Tdi.

If I got you right, there SHOULDN'T be a EGR. Just out of curiosity:
What sort of problem with the EGR could lead to the effect I described?


> Now for the black smoke and intercooler stuffing.
>
> Have you checked the condition of your air filter's element? Sometimes
> when the air filter gets TOO dirty you may end up producing black
> smoke from your exhaust when you press the accelerator pedal to pick
> up speed and acceleration.


The air filter's element was the first thing I checked - it looked
pretty dusty so I replaced it but with no remarkable effect.


> From your description I would also suspect damaged oil seals or maybe
> damaged bearings on your turbocharger.
> May I suggest you remove the hose leading from the turbocharger to the
> intercooler, cleaning it up and the re-installing it and having a
> drive?
>
> If you find lots of oil after about 100 Km then most probably the oil
> seals and bearings inside your turbocharger are gone and need either
> to be replaced (hopefully) or you will be in need of a new or
> reconditioned turbocharger unit.
>
> ONE POINT OF ATTENTION.
>
> If you end up repairing OR replacing your turbocharger be EXTRA
> CAREFUL on priming the new/repaired turbocharger with fresh engine oil
> right before you start the engine for the first time.
> A lot of turbocharger specialists or car mechanics FORGET (?) to do so
> (just because it is time consuming) and the result is premature but
> significant wear on the new seals and bearing due to the turbine
> spinning dry until the engine's oil finds its way through the oil
> feeding hoses to them (the seals and bearings). If they are primed in
> advanced they spin freely and well lubricated and this ensures a
> proper start of operating life for them.
>
> Another thing to make sure is the check with them that the
> turbocharger's turbine is balanced after they replace the seals and
> bearings.


Okay, I will clean the hose and look for oil after 100+km.

The warning you made, that experts and mechanics don't really care about
their custumers engines somehow frightens me, because I made similar
experiences. Why is it so hard to get real service when the other way
round I have to pay real money?


> One more thing to check is that the engine oil breather and
> recirculation system is clean. This mainly consists of the black
> barrel shaped thing located to the left side of the engine (almost
> between the fuel pump and the cylinder head) when you see the engine
> from the front of the vehicle. This barrel shaped canister collects
> the oil fumes emitted from the cylinder head and sends them back to
> the engine via a hose leading to the oil sump. It also has another
> hose coming from the air filter's housing. I would suggest you remove
> all of them (the hoses and canister) and give them a thorough rinse
> and cleaning with carburator cleaning spray or plain diesel fuel.


All right, I'll check and clean it.

Do I get this right: If the breather pipes aren't clean then the (oil)
pressure in the engine rises and somehow (?) pushes oil out of the block
into the intercooler?!


> 78.000 Km (between the 2001 made 120.000 and the 2004 made 198.000
> ones) sounds a bit short for a properly repaired or new turbocharger
> to have died on you, UNLESS you do not pay attention on letting the
> turbine cool and spin down before you switch the engine off.
> Alternatively (if you do not have enough time to let it cool and spin
> down) then it is a good practice to drive below the turbocharger's
> spooling rpm range (that is above 2000 rpm) for a minute or so before
> you switch the engine off.

I must admit that I wasn't aware that letting cooling and spinning down
the turbine is so crucial for the lifetime of the turbocharger. (Huw, in
another answer to my posting, also pointed that out.)
Albeit being unaware, I normally have some slow paced 1-2km before
reaching my destination.

Just to get a better feeling: How long should the engine idle to cool
and spin down the turbine?


Thanks, especially Pantelis for the detailled reply.

My best wishes fo 2005,
Wolfgang

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