Starter motor woes on frosty mornings...

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On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:09:24 +1300, EMB wrote:

> However if the solenoid works and the starter spins, then the pinion
> must be engaging but not transmitting drive.

*Must* be engaging? Isn't the pinion thrown forward into engagement
with the ring gear due to its interia and being on mounted on the
coarsely threaded shaft of the starter motor. If the pinion is sticky
on the shaft the motor will still spin but the pinion not engage. This
fault can be a random in nature as the shocks from the motor starting
and stopping can free the pinion... Fits the OPs orginal description
fairly well.

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 
Dave Liquorice wrote:

> *Must* be engaging? Isn't the pinion thrown forward into engagement
> with the ring gear due to its interia and being on mounted on the
> coarsely threaded shaft of the starter motor. If the pinion is sticky
> on the shaft the motor will still spin but the pinion not engage.

Old inertia type - that's right. Modern pre-engaged type have the
solenoid push the pinion into mesh.


--
EMB
 
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 15:14:06 +1300, EMB <[email protected]> wrote:

>Dave Liquorice wrote:
>
>> *Must* be engaging? Isn't the pinion thrown forward into engagement
>> with the ring gear due to its interia and being on mounted on the
>> coarsely threaded shaft of the starter motor. If the pinion is sticky
>> on the shaft the motor will still spin but the pinion not engage.
>
>Old inertia type - that's right. Modern pre-engaged type have the
>solenoid push the pinion into mesh.

And Landrovers have the **Modern** type??? Wow, theres a suprise.
 
In message <[email protected]>
EMB <[email protected]> wrote:

> Dave Liquorice wrote:
>
> > *Must* be engaging? Isn't the pinion thrown forward into engagement
> > with the ring gear due to its interia and being on mounted on the
> > coarsely threaded shaft of the starter motor. If the pinion is sticky
> > on the shaft the motor will still spin but the pinion not engage.
>
> Old inertia type - that's right. Modern pre-engaged type have the
> solenoid push the pinion into mesh.
>
>

The 200/300Tdi (and optionaly 2.5TD) starters being the "modern" type.

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
Running a business in a Microsoft free environment - it can be done
Powered by Risc-OS - you won't get a virus from us!!
Boycott the Yorkshire Dales - No Play, No Pay
 
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 08:04:26 +0000 (UTC), Jon wrote:

>>> *Must* be engaging? Isn't the pinion thrown forward ...
>>
>> Old inertia type - that's right. Modern pre-engaged type have the
>> solenoid push the pinion into mesh.

But not *must* be engaging, it all depends on the timing of contact
closure in relation to expected pinion position. However that is straw
clutching. B-)

Bu what ever spining without apparent engagement is a starter fault
either a sticky pinion on shaft or sticky clutch.

> And Landrovers have the **Modern** type??? Wow, theres a suprise.

I suspect there is a change over period sometime in the 70's or 80's.
Or prehaps between series and Defender, I'd expect Discos, Rangies etc
to be all pre-engaged. B-)

--
Cheers [email protected]
Dave. pam is missing e-mail



 
On Tuesday, in article
<d49abacd4d%[email protected]>
[email protected] "beamendsltd" wrote:

> In message <[email protected]>
> EMB <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Dave Liquorice wrote:
> >
> > > *Must* be engaging? Isn't the pinion thrown forward into engagement
> > > with the ring gear due to its interia and being on mounted on the
> > > coarsely threaded shaft of the starter motor. If the pinion is sticky
> > > on the shaft the motor will still spin but the pinion not engage.
> >
> > Old inertia type - that's right. Modern pre-engaged type have the
> > solenoid push the pinion into mesh.
> >
> >
>
> The 200/300Tdi (and optionaly 2.5TD) starters being the "modern" type.

Going back to the 2.25 engines on the Series III, the petrol and diesel
engines have totally different starters. The petrol has a relay-only
solenoid on the bulkhead, and (I think) an inertia starter. The diesel
has the solenoid on the starter motor, closing the contacts and
physically moving the pinion into mesh. As an ex-farmer, I tend to think
of the latter type as standard, and don't have a special mental label
for it.



--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."
 
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> For about 18months my 200tdi Defender 90 has had the occasional
>> starting problem.
>>
>> When I turn the key the starter motor spins like a good 'un but the
>> engine doesnt turn over.
>>
>> Often on the second attempt everything works as it should and I can
>> drive away.
>>
>> Over the last week or so when we've been having the frosts it can
>> often take 8 - 10 attempts to get the thing to start.
>>
>> It seems to have no problem starting when everything has warmed up.
>>
>> Question - Whats wrong? It would appear that the starter cog isnt
>> flying along the starter motor spindle to make contact with the
>> flywheel???
>>
>> I dont need to move the gearbox / flywheel to make it start so I dont
>> think I'm any teeth missing on the flywheel.
>>
>> Is it possible that it will just need a clean and re-grease or is it
>> more likely a new starter motor.... if so price Richard please??
>>
>> Also, Haynes Manual suggests access is easiest from the TOP... I think
>> from below may be easier. Any suggestions / advice please?
>>
>> Thanks
>> Jon
>>
>
>Sounds like the solenoid is not shifting the yoke to engage the
>dog. A new starter is:
>
>ERR5009 Starter Motor - 2.5D/TD/200/300Tdi - Bosch Type £91.65 inc VAT
>
>but...
>
>you could change the solenoid, as ever there are three types:
>
>For Valeo starters:
>
>RTC4978 Solenoid - Valeo Starter Motor - 2.5D/TD/200/300 Tdi £34.07 inc

Well its off...And its a Valeo Starter Motor. The motor housing and
cables seem in good nick and the small cog (dont know what it should
be called) on the end of the motor doesnt look too warn considering
its done 150,000miles. The ends of the teeth are only very slightly
warn.

So, I guess its time for a new solenoid.



>
>For Bosch:
>STC1245R Solenoid - Starter Motor - 0-331-303-165 - 2.5D/TD/200Tdi/300Tdi
> £26.79 inc VAT
>or
>STC3715 Solenoid - Bosch & Lucas M47 Starter Motor - 9-330-331-006 -
> 2.5D/TD/200/300 Tdi £44.53 inc VAT
>
>I get them out through the top, but they are real buggers - you
>can see the bolts and they can be bloody tight. A large bucket of
>language is a prerequisite.
>
>Richard

 
I
>Well its off...And its a Valeo Starter Motor. The motor housing and
>cables seem in good nick and the small cog (dont know what it should
>be called) on the end of the motor doesnt look too warn considering
>its done 150,000miles. The ends of the teeth are only very slightly
>warn.
>
>So, I guess its time for a new solenoid.


The "small cog" or pinion should be stiff to turn by hand in one
direction and impossible to turn by hand in the other. If it is easy to
move then that is your problem. The clutch that lives inside the pinion
has failed.

Good luck


--
Marc Draper
 
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 08:38:52 +0000, Marc Draper
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I
>>Well its off...And its a Valeo Starter Motor. The motor housing and
>>cables seem in good nick and the small cog (dont know what it should
>>be called) on the end of the motor doesnt look too warn considering
>>its done 150,000miles. The ends of the teeth are only very slightly
>>warn.
>>
>>So, I guess its time for a new solenoid.
>
>
>The "small cog" or pinion should be stiff to turn by hand in one
>direction and impossible to turn by hand in the other. If it is easy to
>move then that is your problem. The clutch that lives inside the pinion
>has failed.
>
>Good luck


Thanks for this Marc,
The pinion would move round in one direction, but not in the other.
So from above clutch is OK?

Thanks
Jon

 
>Thanks for this Marc,
>The pinion would move round in one direction, but not in the other.
>So from above clutch is OK?

Yes sounds OK.

When the clutch does fail the starter will normally engage ok but will
spin out after a couple of turns and "wizz". Not normally a problem on
TDI engines. The TD engine using the same starter requires much more
cranking to get started and they knacker the clutches more often.

--
Marc Draper
 
Marc Draper wrote:
>
> The "small cog" or pinion should be stiff to turn by hand in one
> direction and impossible to turn by hand in the other. If it is easy to
> move then that is your problem. The clutch that lives inside the pinion
> has failed.

This is what I suggested right back at the start of this thread.
Incidentally, they sometimes fail so that they seem ok by hand too, and
the only way to be sure is take a leap of faith and replace them.


--
EMB
 
Ok guys, head scratching time....Perhaps.

Richard promptly delivered the new solenoid so I put it all back
together last night.

On the first turn of the bloody key there was lots of whining and
starter motor spinning noises but no engine turning over.

Given this is exactly the same as what was happening before the new
solenoid, perhaps its the clutch?

After a lot of swearing I decided to take it all appart again and put
my old solenoid back on and closely examine the teeth on the flywheel.



Flywheel:
Looks like new, no badly warn or missing teeth.

Starter:
With the starter motor on the ground and a spare 12V supply I fired up
the starter. Instantly the pinion flys out and I can hear the same
noise that I can when its on the motor (using both solenoids).

An interesting point that my father pointed out was that when the
starter was spinning but not starting the engine was that the fan was
turning ever so slowly???

This would be indicitave of the starter motor clutch would it not??
Assuming that the starting resistance of the 200tdi is greater than
the ability of the starter clutch to lock out fully?

Also, I decided to take the starter appart last night. The workshop
manual says that there should be a rubber pad (item 10 in the link
below) in amongst the clutch workings - I have absolutely no traces of
this left in the body.

Starter motor brushes, windings and magnets all look fine.


Options:-
1. Someone mentioned the clutch a while back. Would that be the
general concensus now? If so can I buy a new clutch assembly?

2. Buy a new starter motor...Are they exchange units?
3. Is it worth getting one off a scrapper?

Any advice please. I really need the vehicle back on the road.

thanks
Jon



On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:11:32 +0000 (UTC), Jon <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Hi all,
>
>For about 18months my 200tdi Defender 90 has had the occasional
>starting problem.
>
>When I turn the key the starter motor spins like a good 'un but the
>engine doesnt turn over.
>
>Often on the second attempt everything works as it should and I can
>drive away.
>
>Over the last week or so when we've been having the frosts it can
>often take 8 - 10 attempts to get the thing to start.
>
>It seems to have no problem starting when everything has warmed up.
>
>Question - Whats wrong? It would appear that the starter cog isnt
>flying along the starter motor spindle to make contact with the
>flywheel???
>
>I dont need to move the gearbox / flywheel to make it start so I dont
>think I'm any teeth missing on the flywheel.
>
>Is it possible that it will just need a clean and re-grease or is it
>more likely a new starter motor.... if so price Richard please??
>
>Also, Haynes Manual suggests access is easiest from the TOP... I think
>from below may be easier. Any suggestions / advice please?
>
>Thanks
>Jon

 
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:08:41 +0000 (UTC), Jon <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Ok guys, head scratching time....Perhaps.
>
>Richard promptly delivered the new solenoid so I put it all back
>together last night.
>
>On the first turn of the bloody key there was lots of whining and
>starter motor spinning noises but no engine turning over.
>
>Given this is exactly the same as what was happening before the new
>solenoid, perhaps its the clutch?
>
>After a lot of swearing I decided to take it all appart again and put
>my old solenoid back on and closely examine the teeth on the flywheel.
>
>
>
>Flywheel:
>Looks like new, no badly warn or missing teeth.
>
>Starter:
>With the starter motor on the ground and a spare 12V supply I fired up
>the starter. Instantly the pinion flys out and I can hear the same
>noise that I can when its on the motor (using both solenoids).
>
>An interesting point that my father pointed out was that when the
>starter was spinning but not starting the engine was that the fan was
>turning ever so slowly???
>
>This would be indicitave of the starter motor clutch would it not??
>Assuming that the starting resistance of the 200tdi is greater than
>the ability of the starter clutch to lock out fully?
>
>Also, I decided to take the starter appart last night. The workshop
>manual says that there should be a rubber pad (item 6 in the link
>below) in amongst the clutch workings - I have absolutely no traces of
>this left in the body.
>

http://www.aw-racing.co.uk/p47.jpg


>Starter motor brushes, windings and magnets all look fine.
>
>
>Options:-
>1. Someone mentioned the clutch a while back. Would that be the
>general concensus now? If so can I buy a new clutch assembly?
>
>2. Buy a new starter motor...Are they exchange units?
>3. Is it worth getting one off a scrapper?
>
>Any advice please. I really need the vehicle back on the road.
>
>thanks
>Jon
>
>
>
>On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 10:11:32 +0000 (UTC), Jon <[email protected]>
>wrote:
>
>>Hi all,
>>
>>For about 18months my 200tdi Defender 90 has had the occasional
>>starting problem.
>>
>>When I turn the key the starter motor spins like a good 'un but the
>>engine doesnt turn over.
>>
>>Often on the second attempt everything works as it should and I can
>>drive away.
>>
>>Over the last week or so when we've been having the frosts it can
>>often take 8 - 10 attempts to get the thing to start.
>>
>>It seems to have no problem starting when everything has warmed up.
>>
>>Question - Whats wrong? It would appear that the starter cog isnt
>>flying along the starter motor spindle to make contact with the
>>flywheel???
>>
>>I dont need to move the gearbox / flywheel to make it start so I dont
>>think I'm any teeth missing on the flywheel.
>>
>>Is it possible that it will just need a clean and re-grease or is it
>>more likely a new starter motor.... if so price Richard please??
>>
>>Also, Haynes Manual suggests access is easiest from the TOP... I think
>>from below may be easier. Any suggestions / advice please?
>>
>>Thanks
>>Jon

 
On or around Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:08:41 +0000 (UTC), Jon <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Options:-
>1. Someone mentioned the clutch a while back. Would that be the
>general concensus now? If so can I buy a new clutch assembly?

sounds a lot like it, unless the ring gear is loose on the flywheel. Unusual
but not unheard of. More likely that it'd fall off altogether than slip
though, I would think.

>2. Buy a new starter motor...Are they exchange units?

generally, yeah.

>3. Is it worth getting one off a scrapper?

pays yer money and takes yer chance, innit. You could get a good one, you
could have the same fault or a different fault. If it's dead-easy to get
apart, worth it. If it's a PITA to get off and on again, then I'd go with
an exchange one to avoid having to do it again too soon.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; and
therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee"
John Donne (1571? - 1631) Devotions, XVII
 
New one seems to be ball park £100

Its a definate PITA to get on and off

New "clutch assemblies" are ball park £40.

Several other people have said clutch assemblies tend to be quite
consumable on these so its getting a new assembly put on tomorrow.

Fingers crossed!!




On Fri, 02 Dec 2005 14:44:29 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Fri, 2 Dec 2005 08:08:41 +0000 (UTC), Jon <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>Options:-
>>1. Someone mentioned the clutch a while back. Would that be the
>>general concensus now? If so can I buy a new clutch assembly?
>
>sounds a lot like it, unless the ring gear is loose on the flywheel. Unusual
>but not unheard of. More likely that it'd fall off altogether than slip
>though, I would think.
>
>>2. Buy a new starter motor...Are they exchange units?
>
>generally, yeah.
>
>>3. Is it worth getting one off a scrapper?
>
>pays yer money and takes yer chance, innit. You could get a good one, you
>could have the same fault or a different fault. If it's dead-easy to get
>apart, worth it. If it's a PITA to get off and on again, then I'd go with
>an exchange one to avoid having to do it again too soon.

 
On Fri, 2 Dec 2005 15:36:50 +0000 (UTC), Jon <[email protected]>
wrote:

>New one seems to be ball park £100

I'd image that an exchange recon should be slightly cheaper than that?
Just had the one for my car done and it was about £70

 
Jon wrote:
> Ok guys, head scratching time....Perhaps.
>
> Richard promptly delivered the new solenoid so I put it all back
> together last night.
>
> On the first turn of the bloody key there was lots of whining and
> starter motor spinning noises but no engine turning over.
>
> Given this is exactly the same as what was happening before the new
> solenoid, perhaps its the clutch?

Ok - I rest my case. Do what you should have done to start with - buy a
new one way clutch/pinion assembly, fit it, and it'll work again.

--
EMB
 
Poor electrical supply, usually through earthing circuit.
try running starter motor directly with jump leads, if it works then
this likely to be problem,
Or battery not delivering enough amps, check with a clamp meter or jump
lead your battery to another battery.

--
If you received this through the miracle of modern technology then all
is well; if not then situation normal.
Chris father of :) ( also at [email protected] )
www.users.zetnet.co.uk/barnes_firsnorton
 
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