Starter Issues

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J

Jack

Guest
Hello:

"Lucas" '96 LR Disco 4.0L auto NAS

Sometimes when I go out in the morning (not always the morning) I turn the
key on wait for all the relays to kick in then try the ignition. The starter
spins without engaging the "fly wheel". I turn the key back to the off
position, wait a few seconds for the relays to reset, turn the key on and
again the starter spins without engaging.

I do the above procedure several times and eventually Lucas will start. Once
started I typically do not experience the problem until the next day.

I had a power problem earlier and uprated the battery to an Optima Yellow
Top. I suspect the solenoid on the starter is failing, thus needing a new
starter? Any suggestions?

Are there any relays that could be hanging up and needing replacement? I
wouldn't suspect due to the fact that the starter motor does spin.

Your guess is as good as mine.

Should I need a starter, I'm going to uprate to the Mean Green Starter which
if you believe the hype is lighter and stronger then OEM Bosch. Does anyone
have any experience with these?

Thanks in advance. Direct email is a dud. I'll monitor this group.

Jack


 
Jack wrote:
> Hello:
>
> "Lucas" '96 LR Disco 4.0L auto NAS
>
> Sometimes when I go out in the morning (not always the morning) I turn the
> key on wait for all the relays to kick in then try the ignition. The starter
> spins without engaging the "fly wheel". I turn the key back to the off
> position, wait a few seconds for the relays to reset, turn the key on and
> again the starter spins without engaging.
>
> I do the above procedure several times and eventually Lucas will start. Once
> started I typically do not experience the problem until the next day.
>
> I had a power problem earlier and uprated the battery to an Optima Yellow
> Top. I suspect the solenoid on the starter is failing, thus needing a new
> starter? Any suggestions?
>
> Are there any relays that could be hanging up and needing replacement? I
> wouldn't suspect due to the fact that the starter motor does spin.
>
> Your guess is as good as mine.
>
> Should I need a starter, I'm going to uprate to the Mean Green Starter which
> if you believe the hype is lighter and stronger then OEM Bosch. Does anyone
> have any experience with these?
>
> Thanks in advance. Direct email is a dud. I'll monitor this group.
>
> Jack
>
>

If the starter is spinning, it's not a relay - its the Bendix gear sticking.
Remove starter, remove Bendix gear, dismantle, degrease carefully, coat with
graphite or other dry lube (do NOT oil it) and re-assemble. It'll be as good as
new :)

They get sticky after oiling, be it accidental or deliberate. The oil picks up
dust, it congeals & then the Bendix cannot throw.

--
Karen

"Sometimes I think I have a Guardian Idiot - a little invisible spirit just
behind my shoulder, looking out for me ... only he's an imbecile" - Jake Stonebender
 
Duracell Bunny <[email protected]> uttered summat worrerz funny
about:

> If the starter is spinning, it's not a relay - its the Bendix gear
> sticking. Remove starter, remove Bendix gear, dismantle, degrease
> carefully, coat with graphite or other dry lube (do NOT oil it) and
> re-assemble. It'll be as good as new :)
>
> They get sticky after oiling, be it accidental or deliberate. The oil
> picks up dust, it congeals & then the Bendix cannot throw.

I replaced the starter on my 101 with a modern one which looked a 1/3rd of
the size.

It works... the old one didn't despite much prodding and such like from
myself.

Lee D


 
In message <[email protected]>
Duracell Bunny <[email protected]> wrote:

> Jack wrote:
> > Hello:
> >
> > "Lucas" '96 LR Disco 4.0L auto NAS
> >
> > Sometimes when I go out in the morning (not always the morning) I turn the
> > key on wait for all the relays to kick in then try the ignition. The starter
> > spins without engaging the "fly wheel". I turn the key back to the off
> > position, wait a few seconds for the relays to reset, turn the key on and
> > again the starter spins without engaging.
> >
> > I do the above procedure several times and eventually Lucas will start. Once
> > started I typically do not experience the problem until the next day.
> >
> > I had a power problem earlier and uprated the battery to an Optima Yellow
> > Top. I suspect the solenoid on the starter is failing, thus needing a new
> > starter? Any suggestions?
> >
> > Are there any relays that could be hanging up and needing replacement? I
> > wouldn't suspect due to the fact that the starter motor does spin.
> >
> > Your guess is as good as mine.
> >
> > Should I need a starter, I'm going to uprate to the Mean Green Starter which
> > if you believe the hype is lighter and stronger then OEM Bosch. Does anyone
> > have any experience with these?
> >
> > Thanks in advance. Direct email is a dud. I'll monitor this group.
> >
> > Jack
> >
> >
>
> If the starter is spinning, it's not a relay - its the Bendix gear sticking.
> Remove starter, remove Bendix gear, dismantle, degrease carefully, coat with
> graphite or other dry lube (do NOT oil it) and re-assemble. It'll be as good as
> new :)
>
> They get sticky after oiling, be it accidental or deliberate. The oil picks up
> dust, it congeals & then the Bendix cannot throw.
>

It should be a "pre-engaged" type starter, hence no Bendix. The solenoid,
via an arm/yoke thingie, engages the drive unit. And yes, it could
be the solenoid "sticking" (dirty internal contacts) that is the problem.
If is a Bosch unit then the solenoid is STC1242 (assuming the US spec
vehicles use the same starter). Lucas, and most Bosch, solenoids can be
dismantled and repaired with a service kit from your "local" Lucas
agent - but it can be a pain getting them back together, especially
finding that little spring that shot past your ear when taking to
bits.....

Richard
--
www.beamends-lrspares.co.uk [email protected]
www.radioparadise.com - Good Music, No Vine
Lib Dems - Townies keeping comedy alive
 
On or around Thu, 14 Sep 2006 10:55:31 +1000, Duracell Bunny
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>If the starter is spinning, it's not a relay - its the Bendix gear sticking.
>Remove starter, remove Bendix gear, dismantle, degrease carefully, coat with
>graphite or other dry lube (do NOT oil it) and re-assemble. It'll be as good as
>new :)

except that the modern ones don't have a bendix gear, they're pre-engaged.
Not to say that this isn't good advice for series motors which have got
bendix gears...


I'd look at the fault being in the clutch or in the gear-engaging mechanism.
In theory, no current is supplied to the motor until the gear has been
engaged, by the same solenoid that switches the current to the motor, allied
to a lever of some kind.

If it intermittently doesn't run, I'd suspect the clutch unit in the
motor/gear assembly.

recon starter is the easy answer, unless you have a good auto-electric
repair place to hand.


Rarely, the ring gear can be loose on the flywheel, although that tends to
make a different noise.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Chuck didn't reply, so George swung round in his saddle. He could just
see Chuck's face, a white oval turned toward the sky.
'Look,' whispered Chuck, and George lifted his eyes to heaven.
(There is always a last time for everything.)
Overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out"
Arthur C. Clarke, "The 9 billion names of God"
 
Austin Shackles wrote:
> On or around Thu, 14 Sep 2006 10:55:31 +1000, Duracell Bunny
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>> If the starter is spinning, it's not a relay - its the Bendix gear sticking.
>> Remove starter, remove Bendix gear, dismantle, degrease carefully, coat with
>> graphite or other dry lube (do NOT oil it) and re-assemble. It'll be as good as
>> new :)
>
> except that the modern ones don't have a bendix gear, they're pre-engaged.
> Not to say that this isn't good advice for series motors which have got
> bendix gears...
>
>
> I'd look at the fault being in the clutch or in the gear-engaging mechanism.
> In theory, no current is supplied to the motor until the gear has been
> engaged, by the same solenoid that switches the current to the motor, allied
> to a lever of some kind.
>
> If it intermittently doesn't run, I'd suspect the clutch unit in the
> motor/gear assembly.
>
> recon starter is the easy answer, unless you have a good auto-electric
> repair place to hand.
>
>
> Rarely, the ring gear can be loose on the flywheel, although that tends to
> make a different noise.
>
Having never worked on anything that modern, I'll bow to superior knowledge. I
was led to believe that pre-engaged starters did not spin unless the gear was
engaged, so I'd assumed it was a Bendix device.

I'll shut up now :)

--
Karen

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.'
Catherine Aird
 
Karen wrote:

> I was led to believe that pre-engaged starters did not spin unless the
> gear was engaged

Ah yes, but that's what the buggers do when they go wrong!!!!! One guy in my
street has a car with a crook pre-engaged starter that has been wrong for
months. Some people will tolerate anything!

Cheers,

Graeme Evans
03 9318 0690(H), 0419 880371(B), 03 9318 0893(Fax)
E-mail: [email protected]


 
On or around Fri, 15 Sep 2006 10:53:13 +1000, Duracell Bunny
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>>
>Having never worked on anything that modern, I'll bow to superior knowledge. I
>was led to believe that pre-engaged starters did not spin unless the gear was
>engaged, so I'd assumed it was a Bendix device.

they're not supposed to - if it's working properly then the pinion is
engaged by the solenoid, and the motor current is switched by the same
solenoid at the end of its stroke.

There's a freewheel of some kind in the pinion drive though which is there
to stop the engine over-speeding the starter motor when it starts, same as
the bendix ones kick out of mesh. Motor spinning but not turning the engine
is most likely this unit at fault. Other faults don't normally cause those
symptoms.

The pre-engaged one has one big advantage over the bendix type - it'll stay
in mesh all the time the power is supplied, and so on an engine that kicks
on one cylinder but doesn't catch and run, it'll keep cranking - this is
often true of older diesels, which will start firing or semi-firing on one
pot before the others. A bendix one will kick out of mesh and stop turning
the engine, which can be a pain at times, and wouldn't start the
abovementioned diesel.

>I'll shut up now :)

no need... likesay, the info about the bendix gear is worth repeating.

--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"For millions of years, mankind lived just like the animals. Then
something happened which unleashed the power of our imagination -
we learned to talk." Pink Floyd (1994)
 
In article
<[email protected]>, Duracell
Bunny <[email protected]> writes
>Having never worked on anything that modern, I'll bow to superior
>knowledge. I was led to believe that pre-engaged starters did not spin
>unless the gear was engaged, so I'd assumed it was a Bendix device.
>


Mine used to on a regular basis, only way to stop the thing was to
disconnect the battery. Problem was that no matter how long I left it,
as soon as the battery lead made contact with the battery off it went
again. Nothing else to do but swap it (done in under an hour in the
dark) with the spare and sort it out, then we'd be OK for another year
or so.


Adrian

p.s. anyone want to buy one ?, came off either a 2 or 2.25 diesel.
--
To Reply :
replace "news" with "adrian" and "nospam" with "ffoil"
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> There's a freewheel of some kind in the pinion drive though which is there
> to stop the engine over-speeding the starter motor when it starts, same as
> the bendix ones kick out of mesh. Motor spinning but not turning the engine
> is most likely this unit at fault. Other faults don't normally cause those
> symptoms.

Yep - one way clutch in the pinion - and the symptoms are that it's
shagged so it's probably new pinion time (and make sure you're sitting
down when you hear the price).

--
EMB
 
On or around Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:19:28 +0100, Adrian Simpson
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>In article
><[email protected]>, Duracell
>Bunny <[email protected]> writes
>>Having never worked on anything that modern, I'll bow to superior
>>knowledge. I was led to believe that pre-engaged starters did not spin
>>unless the gear was engaged, so I'd assumed it was a Bendix device.
>>
>
>
>Mine used to on a regular basis, only way to stop the thing was to
>disconnect the battery. Problem was that no matter how long I left it,
>as soon as the battery lead made contact with the battery off it went
>again. Nothing else to do but swap it (done in under an hour in the
>dark) with the spare and sort it out, then we'd be OK for another year
>or so.

motor running when it shouldn't is normally a sticking solenoid/mechanism.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
Boswell's "Johnson".
 
In article <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> writes
>On or around Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:19:28 +0100, Adrian Simpson
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>

Enlightened ? (rarely accused of doing that !)

>>Mine used to on a regular basis, only way to stop the thing was to
>>disconnect the battery. Problem was that no matter how long I left it,
>>as soon as the battery lead made contact with the battery off it went
>>again. Nothing else to do but swap it (done in under an hour in the
>>dark) with the spare and sort it out, then we'd be OK for another year
>>or so.
>
>motor running when it shouldn't is normally a sticking solenoid/mechanism.

As a one off I would happily go along with that, but when it happened
several times, and one two different motors, I did start to wonder.



Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "news" with "adrian" and "nospam" with "ffoil"
Sorry for the rigmarole, If I want spam, I'll go to the shops
Every time someone says "I don't believe in trolls", another one dies.
 

"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:19:28 +0100, Adrian Simpson
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >In article
> ><[email protected]>, Duracell
> >Bunny <[email protected]> writes
> >>Having never worked on anything that modern, I'll bow to superior
> >>knowledge. I was led to believe that pre-engaged starters did not spin
> >>unless the gear was engaged, so I'd assumed it was a Bendix device.
> >>
> >
> >
> >Mine used to on a regular basis, only way to stop the thing was to
> >disconnect the battery. Problem was that no matter how long I left it,
> >as soon as the battery lead made contact with the battery off it went
> >again. Nothing else to do but swap it (done in under an hour in the
> >dark) with the spare and sort it out, then we'd be OK for another year
> >or so.
>
> motor running when it shouldn't is normally a sticking solenoid/mechanism.

My moneys with EMB, sticking solenoid wouldn't reach the switching point for
the motor.

Martin

> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> "Quos deus vult perdere, prius dementat" Euripedes, quoted in
> Boswell's "Johnson".


 
On or around Mon, 18 Sep 2006 20:13:14 +0100, "Oily"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> On or around Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:19:28 +0100, Adrian Simpson
>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>> >Mine used to on a regular basis, only way to stop the thing was to
>> >disconnect the battery. Problem was that no matter how long I left it,
>> >as soon as the battery lead made contact with the battery off it went
>> >again. Nothing else to do but swap it (done in under an hour in the
>> >dark) with the spare and sort it out, then we'd be OK for another year
>> >or so.
>>
>> motor running when it shouldn't is normally a sticking solenoid/mechanism.
>
>My moneys with EMB, sticking solenoid wouldn't reach the switching point for
>the motor.

note that we're not talking about the original iffy starter here but a
different one with different symptoms...
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Appearances: You don't really need make-up. Celebrate your authentic
face by frightening people in the street.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 

> >
> >"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> On or around Fri, 15 Sep 2006 19:19:28 +0100, Adrian Simpson
> >> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
> >>
> >> >Mine used to on a regular basis, only way to stop the thing was to
> >> >disconnect the battery. Problem was that no matter how long I left
it,
> >> >as soon as the battery lead made contact with the battery off it went
> >> >again. Nothing else to do but swap it (done in under an hour in the
> >> >dark) with the spare and sort it out, then we'd be OK for another year
> >> >or so.
> >>
> >> motor running when it shouldn't is normally a sticking
solenoid/mechanism.
> >
> >My moneys with EMB, sticking solenoid wouldn't reach the switching point
for
> >the motor.
>
> note that we're not talking about the original iffy starter here but a
> different one with different symptoms...
>
Ah, I wasn't paying attention, one with welded contacts on solenoid end cap,
I stand corrected. :)

Martin


 
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