Power of 300TDi

Hi Group

I was coming home yesterday fighting a pretty fierce headwind in the
recently overhauled 300Tdi Disco (auto). With a bulky, but light trailer
behind (approx 2m [l] x 1,6m [w] x 1x6 [h] and about 400kgs) I was battling
to get over 110km/h and up hills, 80 was a push.

I tend not to drive it too hard and I find that the huge jump between 3
(revving hard at 80km/h) and lockup 4th (just ticking over) too big.

I must say that it was no more powerful prior to the overhaul, but the
handbook claims a laughable 3500kg tow rating. I could not imaging towing
1000kgs as I don't think I would get out of second. Is my experience
atypical? I realize that the auto must be robbing some of the ponies and the
wagon is not too bad running 1up but as soon as any kind of load goes in, it
just seems to die.

I know this is bad form but when I compare it to my friends F&*d courier
2500 int turbo d pickup which is only about 500kgs lighter, his seems loads
more powerful. He was able to tow my serIII on a trailer up a pretty fierce
local hill at 100km/h, a speed I battle to attain with the disco 1up! On
paper his engine is about 82Kw and 250ish Nm, while I believe that in Disco
form, the 300Tdi is about 90Kw and 265Nm or thereabouts, so why does mine
seem so lethargic?

Apart from the agonizing progress, the engine seems sweet averaging about
800km on a tank (which tells you how I usually drive.) Any comments?

Regards
Stephen

fanie posted:

> I was coming home yesterday fighting a pretty fierce headwind in the
> recently overhauled 300Tdi Disco (auto). With a bulky, but light trailer
> behind (approx 2m [l] x 1,6m [w] x 1x6 [h] and about 400kgs) I was
> battling to get over 110km/h and up hills, 80 was a push.

I run a '96 300Tdi Disco, but manual gearbox and tow a caravan weighing 850
kgs and carry about 350 kgs of gear in the boot, with two adults and two
children (9 & 12) and have very few problems towing anywhere at almost any
speed I want t go at.

> I must say that it was no more powerful prior to the overhaul, but the
> handbook claims a laughable 3500kg tow rating. I could not imaging towing
> 1000kgs as I don't think I would get out of second.

The heaviest I've towed is a trailer with another Disco on. We kept it down
to 50 mph, but could have gone way faster if we had wanted. Safety was our
only reason for keeping the speed down.

> Apart from the agonizing progress, the engine seems sweet averaging about
> 800km on a tank (which tells you how I usually drive.) Any comments?

Maybe it's all a bit clogged up and needs a few decent thrashes to 'clear it
out'.

Good breathing is the key to maintaining performance with any diesel, I
find.

--
Paul ...

(8(|) ... Homer Rocks

>
> my 1984 110 2.5n/a diesel has a towing capacity of 3500kg.
> for 'towing capacity' read 'low first and it might shift it but don't
> think of going near traffic'.
>

Point very much taken!

Perhaps it is the Auto that is robbing all the poines? I think that I shall
try one of those RS components pressure transducers to see what sort of
boost pressure I am actually getting and then if that fails perhaps it is
onto the dyno, although I am not too sure if there are too many four wheel
capable dynos in my area.

Regards
Stephen

PS: After just blowing the motor (admittedly with a broken water hose) I am
a little weary of thrashing anything, hence the old fart's fuel consumption.
Just as well as I hear that we can expect another 23c/l added onto the price
of our diesel. Still I am sure it is a lot less than you are paying in Sunny
old England.

fanie wrote:
> Perhaps it is the Auto that is robbing all the poines? I think that I shall
> try one of those RS components pressure transducers to see what sort of
> boost pressure I am actually getting and then if that fails perhaps it is
> onto the dyno, although I am not too sure if there are too many four wheel
> capable dynos in my area.
>
> Regards
> Stephen
>
> PS: After just blowing the motor (admittedly with a broken water hose) I am
> a little weary of thrashing anything, hence the old fart's fuel consumption.
> Just as well as I hear that we can expect another 23c/l added onto the price
> of our diesel. Still I am sure it is a lot less than you are paying in Sunny
> old England.
>
>


--
EMB

On or around Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:03:33 +0200, "fanie"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>
>Apart from the agonizing progress, the engine seems sweet averaging about
>800km on a tank (which tells you how I usually drive.) Any comments?

it might need tuning.

I've a text file that I really should update a bit, which describes the
process, if you want.

In article <[email protected]>, austin@ddol-
las.fsnet.co.uk says...
> On or around Wed, 27 Oct 2004 13:03:33 +0200, "fanie"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >
> >Apart from the agonizing progress, the engine seems sweet averaging about
> >800km on a tank (which tells you how I usually drive.) Any comments?
>
> it might need tuning.
>
> I've a text file that I really should update a bit, which describes the
> process, if you want.

Oh, yes please. It's coming around to that just-how-many-fluids-am-I-
buying-here service time. I can see myself taking a week off work just
to do all the things I want to on her.

And I noticed yesterday that the rear door hinges are reapidly gathering
a lot of rust, and some bastard has nudged me in the back - just enough
to buckle the bumper and the bumper endcap. Bastards. *sigh*

Ta,
Aled.

Hi Stephen,
from my experience there are problems that you are
experiencing on your 300, and given that it is an auto the problems
are exasherbated. I would imagine that when the engine is cold, it
would be a challenge to pull the "skin off a rice pudding".

Probably 80% of your problem comes from the fact that injector pump
and camshaft are retarded. This is fairly common and due to the way
your timing belt behaves and performs.

The other 20% is an issue of breathing. Again this is a manufacturing
issue with the 300, but a simple fix. Actually the fix is two part.

1. Use only clean air filters. A few pounds spent on putting in a new
air filter can make a big difference. I would recommend staying with a
genuine LR one as they work well, until they become clagged.

2. The inlet manifold is supposed to have round ports that match up
with the round ports on the head. My experience is that while the
ports on the head are round the inlet manifold ports are somewhere
between a circle and an oval. If you port match the inlet manifold you
will find much better mid and top range "breathing.

The problem with the belt can only be fixed by going to the Zeus
gears. (Yes I am bias 'cause I sell them in Australia).
Our studies at a local university show a 27% increase in power at the
bottom end.
At the bottom of the following page you will find the dyno work done
at the Chisholm Institute on their 4wd dyno.

http://www.yican.com.au/tbd.html

I used to tow a tandem trailer loaded with 2.5 tonnes of phone books
which we delivered as a Scout fundraiser. With the belt it was quite
often necessary to use the low box to start on slight slopes. With the
Zeus gears, I start in high range. Basically the engine is useable
from about 1100rpm, rather than waiting on the turbo to kick in at
1850 rpm.

I've personall y been involved in at least 6 autos, and in all cases
the power improvement was seen by the owners as "significant". This
was especially so with people who reguarly towed a horse trailer with
2 large horses in it.

Anyway, I comment based on some of my experiences, but with a declared
commercial interest in one of the mentioned products.

Cheers


Phillip Simpson





On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:58:56 +0200, "fanie" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Perhaps it is the Auto that is robbing all the poines? I think that I shall
>try one of those RS components pressure transducers to see what sort of
>boost pressure I am actually getting and then if that fails perhaps it is
>onto the dyno, although I am not too sure if there are too many four wheel
>capable dynos in my area.
>
>Regards
>Stephen
>
>PS: After just blowing the motor (admittedly with a broken water hose) I am
>a little weary of thrashing anything, hence the old fart's fuel consumption.
>Just as well as I hear that we can expect another 23c/l added onto the price
>of our diesel. Still I am sure it is a lot less than you are paying in Sunny
>old England.
>

Phillip Simpson wrote:

> The problem with the belt can only be fixed by going to the Zeus
> gears. (Yes I am bias 'cause I sell them in Australia).
> Our studies at a local university show a 27% increase in power at the
> bottom end.
> At the bottom of the following page you will find the dyno work done
> at the Chisholm Institute on their 4wd dyno.
>
> http://www.yican.com.au/tbd.html
>

How much are they ? What advantages over fitting a chain do they offer ?

Steve

"Phillip Simpson" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news[email protected]...
> Hi Stephen,
> from my experience there are problems that you are
> experiencing on your 300, and given that it is an auto the problems
> are exasherbated. I would imagine that when the engine is cold, it
> would be a challenge to pull the "skin off a rice pudding".
>
> Probably 80% of your problem comes from the fact that injector pump
> and camshaft are retarded. This is fairly common and due to the way
> your timing belt behaves and performs.
>
> The other 20% is an issue of breathing. Again this is a manufacturing
> issue with the 300, but a simple fix. Actually the fix is two part.
>
> 1. Use only clean air filters. A few pounds spent on putting in a new
> air filter can make a big difference. I would recommend staying with a
> genuine LR one as they work well, until they become clagged.
>
> 2. The inlet manifold is supposed to have round ports that match up
> with the round ports on the head. My experience is that while the
> ports on the head are round the inlet manifold ports are somewhere
> between a circle and an oval. If you port match the inlet manifold you
> will find much better mid and top range "breathing.
>
> The problem with the belt can only be fixed by going to the Zeus
> gears. (Yes I am bias 'cause I sell them in Australia).
> Our studies at a local university show a 27% increase in power at the
> bottom end.
> At the bottom of the following page you will find the dyno work done
> at the Chisholm Institute on their 4wd dyno.
>
> http://www.yican.com.au/tbd.html
>
> I used to tow a tandem trailer loaded with 2.5 tonnes of phone books
> which we delivered as a Scout fundraiser. With the belt it was quite
> often necessary to use the low box to start on slight slopes. With the
> Zeus gears, I start in high range. Basically the engine is useable
> from about 1100rpm, rather than waiting on the turbo to kick in at
> 1850 rpm.
>
> I've personall y been involved in at least 6 autos, and in all cases
> the power improvement was seen by the owners as "significant". This
> was especially so with people who reguarly towed a horse trailer with
> 2 large horses in it.
>
> Anyway, I comment based on some of my experiences, but with a declared
> commercial interest in one of the mentioned products.
>
> Cheers
>
>
> Phillip Simpson
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, 27 Oct 2004 19:58:56 +0200, "fanie" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>>Perhaps it is the Auto that is robbing all the poines? I think that I
>>shall
>>try one of those RS components pressure transducers to see what sort of
>>boost pressure I am actually getting and then if that fails perhaps it is
>>onto the dyno, although I am not too sure if there are too many four wheel
>>capable dynos in my area.
>>
>>Regards
>>Stephen
>>
>>PS: After just blowing the motor (admittedly with a broken water hose) I
>>am
>>a little weary of thrashing anything, hence the old fart's fuel
>>consumption.
>>Just as well as I hear that we can expect another 23c/l added onto the
>>price
>>of our diesel. Still I am sure it is a lot less than you are paying in
>>Sunny
>>old England.
>>


Hi all, just thought I'd throw my two pence worth in. I run a 300 TDi Disco
ES Auto with EDC, The only time I find it slow is when taking off from a
standing start, the other two Disco's I've ownd were manuals without EDC, so
you could rev the engine and get the turbo spinning, the only way to do that
with the auto is to press the brake and throttle at the same time, then it
takes off fairly well. I havn't noticed any difference between cold and hot
running. I threw an e-mail to zeus gears but never got a reply, sort of put
me off them.

Peter.

So Steve Taylor was, like

<Zeus timing conversions>

> How much are they ?

Lots. The figure of 600 GBP comes to mind, but ICBW.

> What advantages over fitting a chain do they
> offer ?

In theory, compared with a new chain, correctly adjusted, nothing. In
practice, they are much more robust, never stretch and go out of tune, and
last forever. They are also significantly noisier than a chain or belt.
I'm only going on what I have heard, but if I still had a diesel I would be
saving the pennies for one. One of the mags did a write-up a couple of
years ago. I'll look it out for you if you're interested.

--

Rich

Nullum Gratuitum Prandium

"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> So Steve Taylor was, like
>
> <Zeus timing conversions>
>
>> How much are they ?
>
> Lots. The figure of 600 GBP comes to mind, but ICBW.
>
>> What advantages over fitting a chain do they
>> offer ?
>
> In theory, compared with a new chain, correctly adjusted, nothing. In
> practice, they are much more robust, never stretch and go out of tune, and
> last forever. They are also significantly noisier than a chain or belt.
> I'm only going on what I have heard, but if I still had a diesel I would
> be saving the pennies for one. One of the mags did a write-up a couple of
> years ago. I'll look it out for you if you're interested.
>

Timing belts a la 300 TDi tend to snap not stretch.

Peter

Hi Peter,
have to agree that they can snap, but also disagree about them
stretching. In fact if you fit a belt part of the installation process
is to tighten them tightly, turn the engine around a couple of times,
and then retighten them. Even with this process they stretch in a very
short time.

Having fitted a large number of gear kits, I have never seen a timing
belt that wasn't stretched and as a result caused the retardation of
both the pump and cam shaft. Remember it doesn't take much to "detune"
an engine.

Speaking to owners I had one customer who noticed that over a period
of some 9 months his vehicle was slowing loosing power. (he and a
fishing mate, used to both drive up a long steepish hill in their
vehicles. Initially the 300Tdi always beat the Pajero(Shogun?) but
this changed to a draw, then the pajero would always win the race up
the hill.)

As to noise, yes at idle they make a little more noise, but this is
just the noise from the lifters in the pump that were previously
"insulated" by the rubber belt. Once running it is hard to tell the
difference.

Even with a new belt I've never seen a 300Tdi pull properly down to
1100rpm like I can do anytime I need to (mud,snow,sand driving etc).I
also like the extra economy you get from the 300Tdi with the gears,
especially since the price of fuel is increasing.


Cheers

Phillip


On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 17:23:47 -0000, "Peter Seddon"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>"Richard Brookman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> So Steve Taylor was, like
>>
>> <Zeus timing conversions>
>>
>>> How much are they ?
>>
>> Lots. The figure of 600 GBP comes to mind, but ICBW.
>>
>>> What advantages over fitting a chain do they
>>> offer ?
>>
>> In theory, compared with a new chain, correctly adjusted, nothing. In
>> practice, they are much more robust, never stretch and go out of tune, and
>> last forever. They are also significantly noisier than a chain or belt.
>> I'm only going on what I have heard, but if I still had a diesel I would
>> be saving the pennies for one. One of the mags did a write-up a couple of
>> years ago. I'll look it out for you if you're interested.
>>
>
>Timing belts a la 300 TDi tend to snap not stretch.
>
>Peter
>

Phillip Simpson wrote:

>
> Even with a new belt I've never seen a 300Tdi pull properly down to
> 1100rpm like I can do anytime I need to (mud,snow,sand driving etc).I
> also like the extra economy you get from the 300Tdi with the gears,
> especially since the price of fuel is increasing.

600 GBP is lot of fuel to save ! Has no one done a duplex chain system
instead ?

Steve

Steve Taylor wrote:
>
> 600 GBP is lot of fuel to save ! Has no one done a duplex chain system
> instead ?

Given how critical diesel injector pump timing is I think a chain would
tend to be unsatisfactory in the accuracy stakes.


--
EMB

EMB wrote:
> Given how critical diesel injector pump timing is I think a chain would
> tend to be unsatisfactory in the accuracy stakes.

Why ? Its the way it was done for years, before manufacturers reckoned
on making quieter and cheaper timing gear. The tolerances created by the
backlash in a gear train are not negligible.

Steve

Hi Steve,
prior to the recent fuel pricing increase, I calculated that
within about 75000km, and assuming belt changes every 50000km, and a
fuel saving of 10%(varies somewhere between 10-12%), a comparrison of
2 300 owners will show that the vehicle with the Zeus gears, will be
ahead on overall costs compared to the owner of the belt driven 300.

This is purely an accounting exercise, and doesn't take into account
the improved driveability.

Cheers


Phillip



On Sun, 31 Oct 2004 20:48:10 +0000, Steve Taylor
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Phillip Simpson wrote:
>
>>
>> Even with a new belt I've never seen a 300Tdi pull properly down to
>> 1100rpm like I can do anytime I need to (mud,snow,sand driving etc).I
>> also like the extra economy you get from the 300Tdi with the gears,
>> especially since the price of fuel is increasing.
>
>600 GBP is lot of fuel to save ! Has no one done a duplex chain system
>instead ?
>
>Steve

Steve Taylor wrote:
> EMB wrote:
>
>> Given how critical diesel injector pump timing is I think a chain
>> would tend to be unsatisfactory in the accuracy stakes.
>
>
> Why ? Its the way it was done for years, before manufacturers reckoned
> on making quieter and cheaper timing gear. The tolerances created by the
> backlash in a gear train are not negligible.

Factory fit chains tend to have a hydraulic tensioner, AFAICT there's no
easy way to retrofit one to the front of a Tdi.

As for gear tolerances, my Chev racecar engines fitted with timing gears
have no discernable timing movement (ie <1/4 degree) as opposed to the
(high quality) chain driven ones that have up to 1 degree of "movement"
in the timing setting.

--
EMB

On or around Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:15:08 +1300, EMB <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Steve Taylor wrote:
>> EMB wrote:
>>
>>> Given how critical diesel injector pump timing is I think a chain
>>> would tend to be unsatisfactory in the accuracy stakes.
>>
>>
>> Why ? Its the way it was done for years, before manufacturers reckoned
>> on making quieter and cheaper timing gear. The tolerances created by the
>> backlash in a gear train are not negligible.
>
>Factory fit chains tend to have a hydraulic tensioner, AFAICT there's no
>easy way to retrofit one to the front of a Tdi.
>
>As for gear tolerances, my Chev racecar engines fitted with timing gears
>have no discernable timing movement (ie <1/4 degree) as opposed to the
>(high quality) chain driven ones that have up to 1 degree of "movement"
>in the timing setting.

you could perhaps do it with a morse chain a la V8, but I suspect that gets
away with no tensioner by being very short.

the gear set is cute, no doubt. How do they get lubricated? or don't they?

Austin Shackles wrote:

> you could perhaps do it with a morse chain a la V8, but I suspect that gets
> away with no tensioner by being very short.

2 degrees of movement in the timing on my Chev V8 with a morse chain!
(and they break when loaded up much)

>
> the gear set is cute, no doubt. How do they get lubricated? or don't they?

See the Zeus FAQ - they are oil fed.

http://www.zeus.uk.com/faq.htm



--
EMB