P38 Range Rover engine died

Bother! I've finally decided that I'll have to replace the engine in
the P38. The 4.6 engine has been loosing coolant for the last year,
there was sludge in the rocker covers, but this was due to a leaking
inlet manifold gasket. Changed the gasket (and head gaskets too), no
more sludge now, but still loosing coolant. The system gets over
pressurised and a block test kit (the one with the fluid that changes
colour) indicated exhaust gas in the cooling system. When I changed
the head gaskets, number 7 cylinder liner was just below the block
surface, you could just feel it by clicking a finger nail across it.
Over the last few weeks the cooling system has been loosing more and
more coolant, with no leaks evident, so guess it's time for a new
block? The heater O-rings are dribbling now too

I was thinking of getting a new short engine from RPi, new front cover
with oil pump and re-using my heads after replacing the rockers and
shafts, fit new followers, push rods etc. Including gaskets, head
bolts etc this should cost about £2300 for parts. Is this a sensible
way to go? Does anyone have other suggestions, second hand engine, a
reconditioned one? Any comments on the engines supplied by RPi, as I
notice they are assembled themselves rather than supplied built from
Land Rover?

Alan C
'98 Range Rover 4.6 HSE
'87 Range Rover 3.5 EFi

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
Bother! I've finally decided that I'll have to replace the engine in
the P38. The 4.6 engine has been loosing coolant for the last year,
there was sludge in the rocker covers, but this was due to a leaking
inlet manifold gasket. Changed the gasket (and head gaskets too), no
more sludge now, but still loosing coolant. The system gets over
pressurised and a block test kit (the one with the fluid that changes
colour) indicated exhaust gas in the cooling system. When I changed
the head gaskets, number 7 cylinder liner was just below the block
surface, you could just feel it by clicking a finger nail across it.
Over the last few weeks the cooling system has been loosing more and
more coolant, with no leaks evident, so guess it's time for a new
block? The heater O-rings are dribbling now too

I was thinking of getting a new short engine from RPi, new front cover
with oil pump and re-using my heads after replacing the rockers and
shafts, fit new followers, push rods etc. Including gaskets, head
bolts etc this should cost about £2300 for parts. Is this a sensible
way to go? Does anyone have other suggestions, second hand engine, a
reconditioned one? Any comments on the engines supplied by RPi, as I
notice they are assembled themselves rather than supplied built from
Land Rover?

Alan C
'98 Range Rover 4.6 HSE
'87 Range Rover 3.5 EFi

Depends where you are, really, and how tight a time-schedule you are on.
Nothing wrong with a decent new short engine, BUT the same thing could
happen again as it's down to a manufacturing flaw in the blocks themselves
(core-shift during casting), there's no way of knowing if and when it'll
happen or even if it will ever happen at all.
If you supply to me your old bare engine (block, heads, crank, rods, timing
cover, rocker covers etc,) then after about a 3-week turnround (to allow for
all machining etc) I can return to you a rebuilt engine with new cam,
followers, rings, shells, rocker shafts, timing chain etc etc and
crucially - a top-hat linered block to totally cure this known loose
liner/cracked block issue. Total cost? £2100ish, depending on courier
charges.
Badger.
B.H.Engineering,
Rover V8 engine specialists.
www.bhengineering.co.uk
www.roverv8engines.com

Badger wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Bother! I've finally decided that I'll have to replace the engine in
> the P38. The 4.6 engine has been loosing coolant for the last year,
> there was sludge in the rocker covers, but this was due to a leaking
> inlet manifold gasket. Changed the gasket (and head gaskets too), no
> more sludge now, but still loosing coolant. The system gets over
> pressurised and a block test kit (the one with the fluid that changes
> colour) indicated exhaust gas in the cooling system. When I changed
> the head gaskets, number 7 cylinder liner was just below the block
> surface, you could just feel it by clicking a finger nail across it.
> Over the last few weeks the cooling system has been loosing more and
> more coolant, with no leaks evident, so guess it's time for a new
> block? The heater O-rings are dribbling now too
>
> I was thinking of getting a new short engine from RPi, new front cover
> with oil pump and re-using my heads after replacing the rockers and
> shafts, fit new followers, push rods etc. Including gaskets, head
> bolts etc this should cost about £2300 for parts. Is this a sensible
> way to go? Does anyone have other suggestions, second hand engine, a
> reconditioned one? Any comments on the engines supplied by RPi, as I
> notice they are assembled themselves rather than supplied built from
> Land Rover?
>
> Alan C
> '98 Range Rover 4.6 HSE
> '87 Range Rover 3.5 EFi
>
> Depends where you are, really, and how tight a time-schedule you are on.
> Nothing wrong with a decent new short engine, BUT the same thing could
> happen again as it's down to a manufacturing flaw in the blocks themselves
> (core-shift during casting), there's no way of knowing if and when it'll
> happen or even if it will ever happen at all.
> If you supply to me your old bare engine (block, heads, crank, rods, timing
> cover, rocker covers etc,) then after about a 3-week turnround (to allow for
> all machining etc) I can return to you a rebuilt engine with new cam,
> followers, rings, shells, rocker shafts, timing chain etc etc and
> crucially - a top-hat linered block to totally cure this known loose
> liner/cracked block issue. Total cost? £2100ish, depending on courier
> charges.
> Badger.
> B.H.Engineering,
> Rover V8 engine specialists.
> www.bhengineering.co.uk
> www.roverv8engines.com

Hi Badger,

A couple of questions:
I assume that the aluminium of the block has a crack between the water
jacket and one (or more) of the cylinder liners. What happens with
this crack when you remove the liners and rebore (and I guess
counter-bore at the top) the block? The crack still remains, and could
coolant still pass either to the top or bottom of the new liner? I was
under the impression that the wall thickness in this area was only 2.5
to 3 mm, so would the boring process reduce this still further? I've
always wondered this with replacing liners in these blocks, and
hopefully you can finally enlighten me!!

How do I get my old unit to you? Postie Pat isn't going to like me,
even if I do use copious amounts of brown paper! Is there some way I
can make a pallet/box, and do you have a courier contact I could use
(I'm in Hatfield, Hertfordshire), should I decide I'll use your
services?

Alan

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

Badger wrote:
> <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> Bother! I've finally decided that I'll have to replace the engine in
> the P38. The 4.6 engine has been loosing coolant for the last year,
> there was sludge in the rocker covers, but this was due to a leaking
> inlet manifold gasket. Changed the gasket (and head gaskets too), no
> more sludge now, but still loosing coolant. The system gets over
> pressurised and a block test kit (the one with the fluid that changes
> colour) indicated exhaust gas in the cooling system. When I changed
> the head gaskets, number 7 cylinder liner was just below the block
> surface, you could just feel it by clicking a finger nail across it.
> Over the last few weeks the cooling system has been loosing more and
> more coolant, with no leaks evident, so guess it's time for a new
> block? The heater O-rings are dribbling now too
>
> I was thinking of getting a new short engine from RPi, new front cover
> with oil pump and re-using my heads after replacing the rockers and
> shafts, fit new followers, push rods etc. Including gaskets, head
> bolts etc this should cost about £2300 for parts. Is this a sensible
> way to go? Does anyone have other suggestions, second hand engine, a
> reconditioned one? Any comments on the engines supplied by RPi, as I
> notice they are assembled themselves rather than supplied built from
> Land Rover?
>
> Alan C
> '98 Range Rover 4.6 HSE
> '87 Range Rover 3.5 EFi
>
> Depends where you are, really, and how tight a time-schedule you are on.
> Nothing wrong with a decent new short engine, BUT the same thing could
> happen again as it's down to a manufacturing flaw in the blocks themselves
> (core-shift during casting), there's no way of knowing if and when it'll
> happen or even if it will ever happen at all.
> If you supply to me your old bare engine (block, heads, crank, rods,
> timing
> cover, rocker covers etc,) then after about a 3-week turnround (to allow
> for
> all machining etc) I can return to you a rebuilt engine with new cam,
> followers, rings, shells, rocker shafts, timing chain etc etc and
> crucially - a top-hat linered block to totally cure this known loose
> liner/cracked block issue. Total cost? £2100ish, depending on courier
> charges.
> Badger.
> B.H.Engineering,
> Rover V8 engine specialists.
> www.bhengineering.co.uk
> www.roverv8engines.com

Hi Badger,

A couple of questions:
I assume that the aluminium of the block has a crack between the water
jacket and one (or more) of the cylinder liners. What happens with
this crack when you remove the liners and rebore (and I guess
counter-bore at the top) the block? The crack still remains, and could
coolant still pass either to the top or bottom of the new liner? I was
under the impression that the wall thickness in this area was only 2.5
to 3 mm, so would the boring process reduce this still further? I've
always wondered this with replacing liners in these blocks, and
hopefully you can finally enlighten me!!

How do I get my old unit to you? Postie Pat isn't going to like me,
even if I do use copious amounts of brown paper! Is there some way I
can make a pallet/box, and do you have a courier contact I could use
(I'm in Hatfield, Hertfordshire), should I decide I'll use your
services?

Alan

Right, here goes. The cracks are completely non-structural and as such
become irrelevant when the new type of liner is installed due to the liner
being sealed top and bottom and clamped in place in such a way that it
cannot move. It is only the fact that the liners can become loose and drop
in the std blocks that allows the coolant to leak in the first place. The
cracks are, however, tig welded up before the final machining to size for
the new liners, approx. 10 thou larger outer diameter than the originals.
The reason the cracks occur is due to a phenomenon known as "core shift",
this being the sand core of the casting moving due to the sudden contact
with an extremely hot molten metal, which can cause the ally dimension you
talk of being reduced to around 1.2mm! All this means in practice is that if
the engine should ever get too hot, the ally might crack at this weak spot,
nothing else. Only if there is a crack and a loose liner together do you
actually get a coolant issue.
As for transportation, wrap it in cling-film and strap it to a pallet (after
draining all fluids and removing all ancilliaries such as starter, knock
sensors, alternator and mounting pillar, water pump, upper half of inlet
manifold etc etc) and give Palletways or Palletline a call. Last time I used
Palletline they were £60 to shift a P38 autobox complete with transfer box
still attached from Brum to here.
Badger.

[email protected] wrote:
> Bother! I've finally decided that I'll have to replace the engine in
> the P38. The 4.6 engine has been loosing coolant for the last year,
> there was sludge in the rocker covers, but this was due to a leaking
> inlet manifold gasket. Changed the gasket (and head gaskets too), no
> more sludge now, but still loosing coolant. The system gets over
> pressurised and a block test kit (the one with the fluid that changes
> colour) indicated exhaust gas in the cooling system. When I changed
> the head gaskets, number 7 cylinder liner was just below the block
> surface, you could just feel it by clicking a finger nail across it.
> Over the last few weeks the cooling system has been loosing more and
> more coolant, with no leaks evident, so guess it's time for a new
> block? The heater O-rings are dribbling now too
>
> I was thinking of getting a new short engine from RPi, new front cover
> with oil pump and re-using my heads after replacing the rockers and
> shafts, fit new followers, push rods etc. Including gaskets, head
> bolts etc this should cost about £2300 for parts. Is this a sensible
> way to go? Does anyone have other suggestions, second hand engine, a
> reconditioned one? Any comments on the engines supplied by RPi, as I
> notice they are assembled themselves rather than supplied built from
> Land Rover?
>

Hi Alan,

My P38 4.6 had a piston break up. As it had done 100k and I intended to
keep the car I decided to bite the bullet and replace the engine rather
than rebuild. I bought a new full engine from RPI. It cost £3150
including VAT plus £68 delivery. It was delivered on the arranged day
and is fitted and working great. The way I looked at it I could have
spent a couple of grand rebuilding my old unit but for the extra it is
all new including heads, oil and water pump. Should be good for another
100k I hope. Only other bit replaced was the flex plate which was
cracked (second one in four years). My radiator was fine, I think it was
replaced at some time by the previous owner (Jamie Redknapp) along with
quite a bit of the front end!!

Gaz

--

1998 V8 HSE P38
1989 V8 RR Classic

If It Ain’t Broken... Fix It ‘Til It Is

"Gazza" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> [email protected] wrote:
>> Bother! I've finally decided that I'll have to replace the engine in
>> the P38. The 4.6 engine has been loosing coolant for the last year,
>> there was sludge in the rocker covers, but this was due to a leaking
>> inlet manifold gasket. Changed the gasket (and head gaskets too), no
>> more sludge now, but still loosing coolant. The system gets over
>> pressurised and a block test kit (the one with the fluid that changes
>> colour) indicated exhaust gas in the cooling system. When I changed
>> the head gaskets, number 7 cylinder liner was just below the block
>> surface, you could just feel it by clicking a finger nail across it.
>> Over the last few weeks the cooling system has been loosing more and
>> more coolant, with no leaks evident, so guess it's time for a new
>> block? The heater O-rings are dribbling now too
>>
>> I was thinking of getting a new short engine from RPi, new front cover
>> with oil pump and re-using my heads after replacing the rockers and
>> shafts, fit new followers, push rods etc. Including gaskets, head
>> bolts etc this should cost about £2300 for parts. Is this a sensible
>> way to go? Does anyone have other suggestions, second hand engine, a
>> reconditioned one? Any comments on the engines supplied by RPi, as I
>> notice they are assembled themselves rather than supplied built from
>> Land Rover?
>>
>
> Hi Alan,
>
> My P38 4.6 had a piston break up. As it had done 100k and I intended to
> keep the car I decided to bite the bullet and replace the engine rather
> than rebuild. I bought a new full engine from RPI. It cost £3150 including
> VAT plus £68 delivery. It was delivered on the arranged day and is fitted
> and working great. The way I looked at it I could have spent a couple of
> grand rebuilding my old unit but for the extra it is all new including
> heads, oil and water pump. Should be good for another 100k I hope. Only
> other bit replaced was the flex plate which was cracked (second one in
> four years). My radiator was fine, I think it was replaced at some time by
> the previous owner (Jamie Redknapp) along with quite a bit of the front
> end!!
>
> Gaz

Not wanting to be the bearer of bad tidings Gaz, BUT, you still have a block
with a known reliability problem that could well last 100k or more, or could
slip a liner next week....... I know where I'd be putting my money, a tried
and tested solution against liner slip issues.
Badger.

I've had the engine ECU rechipped by Mark Adams to remove the weak
fuelling map and thus the associated hot running. I know that other
engines sizes suffer the slipped liner/cracked block problem, even the
3.5s, but I'm hoping that if I go the route of a new engine then I'm
hopefully less likely to suffer this problem again?

Alan

<[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've had the engine ECU rechipped by Mark Adams to remove the weak
> fuelling map and thus the associated hot running.

Now, mark is a top bloke that knows his stuff, but under idle and cruise
conditions your engine management runs "closed loop", it's looking at the
lambda probes and correcting the fuel injected to keep the engine as near to
lambda 1 as possible. So, even if the ecu's fuelling is modified, how does
the ecu fail to re-correct the mixture? It's a legal requirement for
homologation and I can't see Mark putting his name to something that would
invalidate such legislation and leave you wide open to construction and use
issues. As I understood it, the fuelling was only enrichened at full
throttle and acceleration, when it runs open-loop anyway?

> I know that other
> engines sizes suffer the slipped liner/cracked block problem, even the
> 3.5s,

Very rare indeed, in fact I personally have never ever heard of a 3.5
slipping a liner or cracking the block, the block material is soooooo much
thicker due to the smaller bore. 3,9's, yes, but then they have the same
bore size as the 4.0, 4.2 and 4.6.

> but I'm hoping that if I go the route of a new engine then I'm
> hopefully less likely to suffer this problem again?

In theory, yes, but there's no way of knowing the thickness of the ally and
hence the degree of risk unless you physically see the bare block yourself
to check for the manufacturer's paint colour markings on the valley face of
each bank, and even then it'll still crack if it gets 2 or 3 good thermal
shocks caused by things like water pump failure, top hose failure or
thermostat sticking.
It's your money and your choice at the end of the day, and there are a lot
of engines out there running very high miles now with no cooling system
probs at all, but if it were my money, I wouldn't be spending a greater
ammount on a lesser product, full stop. If it's a distance thing, then try
talking to V8Developments (Lincs) 01775 750000 ask for Ray, tell him you got
his number from BH Engineering. Or try ACR at Liverpool, 01244 539196.
I source my blocks from V8Dev, and then build the engines here, their
product is excellent quality, everything that the factory block ought to
have been really.
Badger.