MOTClass Problems

....and Tom Woods spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...

> Traditional number plates fitted to vehicles manufactured before 1
> January 1973 are not required to display the mandatory character font,
> but the characters must be easy to read.
>
> Can we get some really tiny black and silver plates made up and use
> them legally then? How about some braile ones or something

Getting a smaller front plate would avoid the damage caused by boots from
above and a Hi-Lift from below, or the need to trim the plate to avoid same.
I think 2" x 5" would look fine (and be nigh invisible to those damn speed
cameras).

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)

As a landrover owner for many years and an mot tester for a few, there is a
demarkation between what the vehicle can do and what it should do in a
certain world market.
That is to be specific, the weights printed on the plate do not relate to
what the vehicle can do, but what is agreed it should do within great
britain. The weights the MOT test take into account relate to design weight
which are wholly independant of world market, and the design weight is the
design train weight, of the prime mover and trailer fully laden to max
design weight. So any arguement baised upon the plated weight is not valid
from the start. As the revenue weight is the same as the design weight.
While it is possible to test a landrover as a class 4, I am not sure what
the procedure is now, as havn't been a tester scince the new computer system
became standard. However as a rule of thumb it comes down to the vehicle
having side windows in the rear and seats, however a 110 with max seats
fails to be a class 4 as it counts as a minibus, as for qualifying for the
class 4 test you can test any vehicle as a class 4 so long as the owner
declares it's intended purpose, however declaring it to a computer won't
work lol so enquire with VOSA and see what they have to say.

On or around Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:37:31 -0000, "Richard Brookman"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>Getting a smaller front plate would avoid the damage caused by boots from
>above and a Hi-Lift from below, or the need to trim the plate to avoid same.
>I think 2" x 5" would look fine (and be nigh invisible to those damn speed
>cameras).

On mine, the number plate is on a plate on top of the bumper.

dunno if it's original but it's been there some time, judging from the rust.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
In Touch: Get in touch with yourself by touching yourself.
If somebody is watching, stop touching yourself.
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

On or around Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:38:47 -0000, "Larry" <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>thought it was erlier than 74 because if 74 is the cut off year for old
>style plates mine qualifies as being registered in October 73.

yeah, now I look,

http://www.autoxtra.co.uk/uknumberplates/

says pre-1974.

but then again, they'll produce anything you want. They just class 'em as
"show plates", not for road use, ociffer.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Brevis esse laboro, Obscurus fio" (it is when I struggle to be
brief that I become obscure) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Ars Poetica, 25

Pretty much what I was suggesting in another post.

Ultimatly it has more to do with the maximum laden weight that allows a
reasonable hill start than what is going to cause a collapse of the
undercarriage.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes


"Dad" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> As a landrover owner for many years and an mot tester for a few, there is
a
> demarkation between what the vehicle can do and what it should do in a
> certain world market.
> That is to be specific, the weights printed on the plate do not relate to
> what the vehicle can do, but what is agreed it should do within great
> britain. The weights the MOT test take into account relate to design
weight
> which are wholly independant of world market, and the design weight is the
> design train weight, of the prime mover and trailer fully laden to max
> design weight. So any arguement baised upon the plated weight is not valid
> from the start. As the revenue weight is the same as the design weight.
> While it is possible to test a landrover as a class 4, I am not sure what
> the procedure is now, as havn't been a tester scince the new computer
system
> became standard. However as a rule of thumb it comes down to the vehicle
> having side windows in the rear and seats, however a 110 with max seats
> fails to be a class 4 as it counts as a minibus, as for qualifying for the
> class 4 test you can test any vehicle as a class 4 so long as the owner
> declares it's intended purpose, however declaring it to a computer won't
> work lol so enquire with VOSA and see what they have to say.
>
>

What I was figuring is that if you buy an old non dated plate and transfer
the reg, given the appearance of an old landie, plod would never know the
difference.

--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes



"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Thu, 5 Jan 2006 20:38:47 -0000, "Larry"
<[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
> >thought it was erlier than 74 because if 74 is the cut off year for old
> >style plates mine qualifies as being registered in October 73.
>
> yeah, now I look,
>
> http://www.autoxtra.co.uk/uknumberplates/
>
> says pre-1974.
>
> but then again, they'll produce anything you want. They just class 'em as
> "show plates", not for road use, ociffer.
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> "Brevis esse laboro, Obscurus fio" (it is when I struggle to be
> brief that I become obscure) Horace (65 - 8 BC) Ars Poetica, 25

Mine is held on the radiator grille by a couple of bits of wire.


--
Larry
Series 3 rust and holes


"Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On or around Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:37:31 -0000, "Richard Brookman"
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>
> On mine, the number plate is on a plate on top of the bumper.
>
> dunno if it's original but it's been there some time, judging from the
rust.
> --
> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
> In Touch: Get in touch with yourself by touching yourself.
> If somebody is watching, stop touching yourself.
> from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.

"m0bcg" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> send youre v5c log book off and change the revenue weight to 002950kg
> [2950kg] as is listed for STATION WAGON in the landrover gb specs .
>
> then it should come up on computer at MOT test station as that weight
> and they will accept it as class 4 .
>
> i think the class 4 test centre ramps are for up to 3000kg and thats
> why there are problems with these "default" weights that the DVLA have
> been placing on mostly ALL landrover documents whether they are 90 or
> 110 or whatever .
>
> discovery logbooks dont seem to have the revenue weights on the
> logbooks but landrovers do for some reason .
> both my 90 logbooks have 3499kg revenue weights on them yet landrover
> gb list the weights as being 2500kg maximum for 90s and 3050kg for 110
> landrovers .
>
> even some landrover logbooks dont have anything shown on the revenue
> weight section .
>
> must be a cock up by the DVLA but they arent seemingly interested in
> sorting it out properly, yet all info is on theyre computer and could
> be rewritten easily, except for fact iof the cost it will be to send
> out new V5C logbooks to all landrover owners with correct info on .
>
> best thing to do is for you to change the details yourself to 2950kg
> and send logbook in for a new updated one .
>
> i have sent mine in for the 90s and 2500kg changes but have not
> received them back yet .
>
> i cannot think for life of me that a 110 landy is over 3 ton , just
> look at all those nissan and mitsubishi pickups going around that are
> much bigger and surely go to normal garages for MOTs .
>
> the revenue weight the DVLA is listing is the gross combined vehicle
> and trailer TOWING WEIGHT that a landrover can tow up to and not the
> weight of actual vehicle .
>
> just fill in the log book and send it off, then see what occurs when
> you go for test, if anything youll be under 3000kg on the computer and
> they should then be given the ok to test youre landy .
>
> its not that they cant do it, its just that the " COMPUTER SAYS NO " ,
> just like on LITTLE BRITAIN on the tv .
>

The Guidance notes on changing the V5C say "
For changes to the revenue weight you will need to produce a:
plating certificate; or
design weight certificate."

from the top of page 10 in http://www.dvla.gov.uk/forms/pdf/INS160.pdf

Design weight certificate details are in

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_19951455_en_2.htm

costs £13.50, aplication to the Secretary of State and needs an inspection.

The process for:-

"Determination of design weight where a vehicle has never been issued with
either a plating certificate or a design weight certificate"

is
"Where a vehicle to which this paragraph applies is submitted for a design
weight examination, a vehicle examiner shall cause the vehicle to be
examined for the purpose of determining whether-
(a) the vehicle is of a make, model and type to which the standard lists
apply;
(b) the constructional particulars relating to that make, model and type
are substantially complied with by the vehicle; and
(c) the weights shown in the standard lists are applicable to the
vehicle."

So there must be standard lists for vehicle design weights.


Looks like you get a design weight test through VOSA here's the form I think
http://www.vosa.gov.uk/vosa/forms/details of notifiable alterations (vtg 10).pdf

The design weight definition is (from VOSA web site) :-
"Design Gross Weight - gross weight at or below which the Secretary of State
or an authorised person considers the vehicle can safely be driven on the
roads."

From no. 12 of http://www.dvtani.gov.uk/pdfs/vehicletesting/svaappform.pdf

Which is a SVA (Single Vehicle Approval) application form it quotes

"
Design Weights: The Design Weights are not required for an unmodified,
standard production passenger vehicle (see notes)

(The Design Weights should be obtained from the vehicle data plate, the
vehicle handbook or the manufacturer or his agent)"



This all points to a Defender 90 having a (from page 181 of my vehicle
handbook) 2400Kg

The 90 high load suspension model is listed as 2550Kg

110 unlevelled suspension model is listed as 3050Kg

120 levelled suspension model is listed as 2950Kg



So has anybody managed to change the revenue weights in the V5C without a
design weight certificate?



A

On or around Fri, 6 Jan 2006 18:51:31 -0000, "Larry" <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Mine is held on the radiator grille by a couple of bits of wire.

you've gotta bring yours to one of the shows. It'll make a point to all the
overpolished "line-up-all-the-bolt-heads" brigade.

never forgotten that. write up in one of the comics about someone who had
rebuilt a landy - might've been a 101. he'd gone to the trouble of getting
all the visible bolt-heads all aligned with eachother. FFS, I fort.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"The woods are lovely, dark and deep. But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep."
Robert Frost (1874-1963) from Stopping by Woods on a Snowy Evening

On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 09:11:39 +0000, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>never forgotten that. write up in one of the comics about someone who had
>rebuilt a landy - might've been a 101. he'd gone to the trouble of getting
>all the visible bolt-heads all aligned with eachother. FFS, I fort.

It's something I always do when putting screws or bolts in. Don't
even think about it much these days, though - prolly is a bit sad I
guess...


--
"We have gone from a world of concentrated knowledge and wisdom to one
of distributed ignorance. And we know and understand less while being
increasingly capable." Prof. Peter Cochrane, formerly of BT Labs
In memory of Brian {Hamilton Kelly} who logged off 15th September 2005

On Friday, in article
<[email protected]>
[email protected] "Dad" wrote:

> As a landrover owner for many years and an mot tester for a few, there is a
> demarkation between what the vehicle can do and what it should do in a
> certain world market.
> That is to be specific, the weights printed on the plate do not relate to
> what the vehicle can do, but what is agreed it should do within great
> britain. The weights the MOT test take into account relate to design weight
> which are wholly independant of world market, and the design weight is the
> design train weight, of the prime mover and trailer fully laden to max
> design weight. So any arguement baised upon the plated weight is not valid
> from the start. As the revenue weight is the same as the design weight.
> While it is possible to test a landrover as a class 4, I am not sure what
> the procedure is now, as havn't been a tester scince the new computer system
> became standard. However as a rule of thumb it comes down to the vehicle
> having side windows in the rear and seats, however a 110 with max seats
> fails to be a class 4 as it counts as a minibus, as for qualifying for the
> class 4 test you can test any vehicle as a class 4 so long as the owner
> declares it's intended purpose, however declaring it to a computer won't
> work lol so enquire with VOSA and see what they have to say.

It looks like the following steps need to be taken.

1: Check your V5 to see if it gives a revenue weight. (Mine, issued in
May when I moved, doesn't.)

2: Check the vehicle for an identity plate which gives a weight. (ex-
MOD, in my case.)

3: If they don't match, check with Land Rover for what the design weight
is, unless it's a plated goods vehicle.

At this point, it could get complicated. It's arguable that if VOSA have
made an arbitrary entry in their computer records that you have grounds
for complaint to the Information Commissioner. The complete record
includes your name and address, which brings the whole entry within the
purview of the Data Protection Acts. This means that VOSA have a duty to
maintain a correct record, and to correct any errors promptly.

You will be drawing VOSA's attention to an error, rather than changing
the details of your vehicle. The people at the call centre won't have
this in their script.

It helps if you have an earlier V5 which doesn't show a revenue weight.
When the new-style documents were issued, you didn't have to send in the
old one.

Whether it is worth getting stroppy with VOSA is another question.
There's a lot of statute law which makes everything our fault. But you
do have an MP. We Land Rover owners are all over the place, and if just
half of the people caught by this issue were to write to their MP it
would be a major political campaign.




--
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

"I am Number Two," said Penfold. "You are Number Six."

On Fri, 6 Jan 2006 21:10:55 +0000, A wrote
(in article <[email protected]>):

<SNIP>

>
>
> So has anybody managed to change the revenue weights in the V5C without a
> design weight certificate?
>

Yes.

My V5C arrived back in this morning's post, with the revenue weight changed
from 3499 KG to 2400 KG (the number given in the handbook for a 90 hard
top).

All I did was cross out the old number and write in the new number, and send
it off, just before Christmas. No fuss, or bother, really.

Nick.

Not sure if it applies these days, but certainly when the old purchase tax
used to be levied on car sales it applied to cars, not vans, hence the
popularity of the mini van as a cheap first car in the 1960s. You bought one
and then after (I think it was) three years you could put windows in the
back and not be expected to pay the extra tax. The evidence from my V5C is
that DVLA differentiate car from van by not including weights for the "car"
version. They presumably have a definitive list of all Land Rover versions.
Would be interesting to know if anybody on group who has a V5C marked "CSW"
or Station Wagon, also has a weight marked as well.

Regarding the tunnel - they seem to argue that if your vehicle looks like
the little van symbol on the toll signs, then that is what you pay. Perhaps
seats in the back helps the argument as well. I bet these big people
carriers make them mad!

Nick


"Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Is that merely because one has windows at the back and the other is a
> "van"
> ?
>
>
> --
> Larry
> Series 3 rust and holes
>
>
> "NW" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news[email protected]...
>>
>
>> Yes, this is all a bit confusing because so many of us are using Landys
>> as
>> not neccessarily built and we use a commercial vehicle as daily "car"
>> transport. For reference, my 110 CSW, (as per another poster) has no
> weight
>> marked on V5C but my 109 Series 3 hard top is marked "1610kg Unladen".
>>
>> Dartford Toll booths are quick to point out if you have got a van or a
> car
>> and despite these two vehicles being extremely similar, pass the 110
> through
>> as a car and charge lorry rate on the 109 - Or am I just being done?
>>
>> Nick Webster
>>
>>
>
>

Wire! You are lucky. In my day we had to use plaited grass. But you tell the
kids of today and they don't believe you...

"Larry" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Mine is held on the radiator grille by a couple of bits of wire.
>
>
> --
> Larry
> Series 3 rust and holes
>
>
> "Austin Shackles" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> On or around Thu, 5 Jan 2006 21:37:31 -0000, "Richard Brookman"
>> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>
>> On mine, the number plate is on a plate on top of the bumper.
>>
>> dunno if it's original but it's been there some time, judging from the
> rust.
>> --
>> Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
>> In Touch: Get in touch with yourself by touching yourself.
>> If somebody is watching, stop touching yourself.
>> from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
>
>

....and Mother" <"@ {mother} @ spake unto the tribes of Usenet, saying...


> On Sat, 07 Jan 2006 09:11:39 +0000, Austin Shackles
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> never forgotten that. write up in one of the comics about someone
>> who had rebuilt a landy - might've been a 101. he'd gone to the
>> trouble of getting all the visible bolt-heads all aligned with
>> eachother. FFS, I fort.
>
> It's something I always do when putting screws or bolts in. Don't
> even think about it much these days, though - prolly is a bit sad I
> guess...

Not sad, just a different mental approach. I always do this if I build a
piece of furniture - any screw slots must line up with the lines of the
piece and with each other, grain pattern and direction and veneer sections
must look right, etc. It's a way of saying that every last detail matters,
and showing that your approach is that of a craftsman, not a bodger,
whatever your ability. I don't do this when I'm working on a vehicle - for
me it's a woodworking thing, but I know where you're coming from. It's the
"Quality" that Pirsig was talking about in ZATAOMM.

Thomas Sheraton, 18C cabinetmaker, talking to an enquirer:

Enquirer: Mr Sheraton, why do you go to all the trouble of making the backs
of the drawers as well-finished as the fronts, when no-one will see them?
Sheraton: God sees.

--
Rich
==============================
Disco 300 Tdi auto
S2a 88" SW
Tiggrr (V8 trialler)