more series brakes (rear adjusters..)

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T

Tom Woods

Guest
In the hopes of attracting any passing aussie ladies (and because i
dont want to die when i can't stop the landy!) i have been having a go
at the brakes on my 2A ;)
Symptoms are that i have lots of pedal travel before getting and
brakes and when they do grip it pulls back and forth (second point
probably due to the oily mess inside the one front drum i took off
tonight!).

My first question involves the adjusters on the rear (on a standard
SWB axle)

Its been a few years since i last playes with my rear brakes.

The adjusters on my back axle dont seem to do anything - even on full
adjust the hub can still spin freely. I was under the impression that
i should be able to adjust it up and lock the hub fully up before
turning it down a few clicks.
The adjuster is turning and moving the leading pad a bit and the
inside snail isnt overly worn (i replaced the adjuster 5ish years
ago).
The brake pads are less than half worn.

Does this imply that the drum itself is worn? or is there some other
possible explanation?
There is a slight step on the inside of the drum but it doesnt seem
too major. It is easy to push on and get off even on full adjust. The
drum is nice and shiny so it obviously works eventually.

Ta

ps - Richard - i will be seeing you again tommorrow for some front
pads and hub seals!
 
Tom Woods wrote:
> In the hopes of attracting any passing aussie ladies (and because i
> dont want to die when i can't stop the landy!) i have been having a go
> at the brakes on my 2A ;)
> Symptoms are that i have lots of pedal travel before getting and
> brakes and when they do grip it pulls back and forth (second point
> probably due to the oily mess inside the one front drum i took off
> tonight!).
>
> My first question involves the adjusters on the rear (on a standard
> SWB axle)
>
> Its been a few years since i last playes with my rear brakes.
>
> The adjusters on my back axle dont seem to do anything - even on full
> adjust the hub can still spin freely. I was under the impression that
> i should be able to adjust it up and lock the hub fully up before
> turning it down a few clicks.
> The adjuster is turning and moving the leading pad a bit and the
> inside snail isnt overly worn (i replaced the adjuster 5ish years
> ago).
> The brake pads are less than half worn.
>
> Does this imply that the drum itself is worn? or is there some other
> possible explanation?
> There is a slight step on the inside of the drum but it doesnt seem
> too major. It is easy to push on and get off even on full adjust. The
> drum is nice and shiny so it obviously works eventually.
>
> Ta
>
> ps - Richard - i will be seeing you again tommorrow for some front
> pads and hub seals!
Lots of things can wear there, could be a cumulative effect. The snail cam can
wear, the pin on the shoe, the drum itself ... I've seen one easy fix, slip a
little bit of brake tube over the brake shoe pin will give you another 1mm of
adjustment, for example.

Can you turn the adjuster full circle (ie > 360°), albeit only one way?

Needs investigation at the very least, of course. No brakes is not acceptable as
you point out!

--
Karen

If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to be a horrible warning.'
Catherine Aird
 
On or around Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:40:26 +0100, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>The adjusters on my back axle dont seem to do anything - even on full
>adjust the hub can still spin freely. I was under the impression that
>i should be able to adjust it up and lock the hub fully up before
>turning it down a few clicks.

could be worn shoes or worn drums - there's a wear limit cast into the drum
somewhere. measure 'em...

also, pull it off and make sure the adjuster is a) working and b) you're
turning it the right way. That one's caught me out more than once - some of
the adjusters are clockwise and some ain't.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
"Nessun maggior dolore che ricordarsi del tempo felice nella miseria"
- Dante Alighieri (1265 - 1321) from Divina Commedia 'Inferno'
 
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:37:22 +1000, Duracell Bunny
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Lots of things can wear there, could be a cumulative effect. The snail cam can
>wear, the pin on the shoe, the drum itself ... I've seen one easy fix, slip a
>little bit of brake tube over the brake shoe pin will give you another 1mm of
>adjustment, for example.
>
>Can you turn the adjuster full circle (ie > 360°), albeit only one way?
>
>Needs investigation at the very least, of course. No brakes is not acceptable as
>you point out!

ive had the drum off and watched the adjuster turning round. it will
go all the way (until it hits the flat when turning one way). The
snail cam doesnt look that worn.

Like i said - the pads are probably less than half worn.

I do like the idea of adding extra adjustment - i might try that.
otherwise im guessing that my drum must be knackered :( It does look
original so it hasnt done too badly i guess!
 
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:45:17 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:40:26 +0100, Tom Woods
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>The adjusters on my back axle dont seem to do anything - even on full
>>adjust the hub can still spin freely. I was under the impression that
>>i should be able to adjust it up and lock the hub fully up before
>>turning it down a few clicks.
>
>could be worn shoes or worn drums - there's a wear limit cast into the drum
>somewhere. measure 'em...

any wear limits in mine are now more like rusty lumps. any idea what
they should say?
Id have thought that there would be an obvious lip if it was very worn
or do they not tend to go like that?

>also, pull it off and make sure the adjuster is a) working and b) you're
>turning it the right way. That one's caught me out more than once - some of
>the adjusters are clockwise and some ain't.

tis working and its a backwards one! :) (left=more brakes, right=less)
 
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:50:58 +0100, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> scribbled the following nonsense:

>On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:45:17 +0100, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>>On or around Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:40:26 +0100, Tom Woods
>><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>>
>>>The adjusters on my back axle dont seem to do anything - even on full
>>>adjust the hub can still spin freely. I was under the impression that
>>>i should be able to adjust it up and lock the hub fully up before
>>>turning it down a few clicks.
>>
>>could be worn shoes or worn drums - there's a wear limit cast into the drum
>>somewhere. measure 'em...
>
>any wear limits in mine are now more like rusty lumps. any idea what
>they should say?
>Id have thought that there would be an obvious lip if it was very worn
>or do they not tend to go like that?
>
>>also, pull it off and make sure the adjuster is a) working and b) you're
>>turning it the right way. That one's caught me out more than once - some of
>>the adjusters are clockwise and some ain't.
>
>tis working and its a backwards one! :) (left=more brakes, right=less)

depends, my old s3 had no lip, but had a lot of travel to get the
brakes working, and that was with new shoes, I found that I could
adjust the brake adjuster so that it was fully adjusted, and still
there was very little binding. Bought some new drums and the thing
stopped on sixpence with no adjustment and very little pedal travel.
Series vehicles having bad brakes is a fallacy if the parts are
correct!
--

Simon Isaacs

"Bad officials are elected by good citizens who do not vote"
George Jean Nathan (1882-1955)

ROT13 me....
 
On or around Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:49:24 +0100, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:37:22 +1000, Duracell Bunny
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>>Lots of things can wear there, could be a cumulative effect. The snail cam can
>>wear, the pin on the shoe, the drum itself ... I've seen one easy fix, slip a
>>little bit of brake tube over the brake shoe pin will give you another 1mm of
>>adjustment, for example.
>>
>>Can you turn the adjuster full circle (ie > 360°), albeit only one way?
>>
>>Needs investigation at the very least, of course. No brakes is not acceptable as
>>you point out!
>
>ive had the drum off and watched the adjuster turning round. it will
>go all the way (until it hits the flat when turning one way). The
>snail cam doesnt look that worn.
>
>Like i said - the pads are probably less than half worn.
>

Pads? you mean shoes?

</pendant>

check the drums for wear. I had similar problems on an old SII - one drum
would only work properly with near-new shoes, 'til I replaced it.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On or around Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:50:58 +0100, Tom Woods
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:45:17 +0100, Austin Shackles
><[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>any wear limits in mine are now more like rusty lumps. any idea what
>they should say?
>Id have thought that there would be an obvious lip if it was very worn
>or do they not tend to go like that?

It'll be in the book of lies. Which is outside somewhere. I did also have
a cracked drum on a series once.
>
>>also, pull it off and make sure the adjuster is a) working and b) you're
>>turning it the right way. That one's caught me out more than once - some of
>>the adjusters are clockwise and some ain't.
>
>tis working and its a backwards one! :) (left=more brakes, right=less)
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
Tom Woods wrote:

> any wear limits in mine are now more like rusty lumps. any idea what
> they should say?
> Id have thought that there would be an obvious lip if it was very worn
> or do they not tend to go like that?

10 inch drum - max 0.030 inch (0.75 mm) oversize with standard linings
is the LR recommendation.

There's the possibility that someone may have machined it out already
hence the lack of a too obvious lip.

If the drum will not lock with the adjuster there are limited
possibilities most of which have already been mentioned but are
restricted to the drum (worn), shoe/lining (worn lining, worn adjuster
pin, wrong parts), adjuster snail (worn, wrong part(insufficient
lift)), backplate (loose/out-of-position fixed pivot pin).

I would expect a correct and unworn adjuster to cope with fully worn
linings and a drum worn to the reclamation limit.



 
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:12:31 +0100, Dougal
<DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote:

>10 inch drum - max 0.030 inch (0.75 mm) oversize with standard linings
>is the LR recommendation.
>
>There's the possibility that someone may have machined it out already
>hence the lack of a too obvious lip.
>
>If the drum will not lock with the adjuster there are limited
>possibilities most of which have already been mentioned but are
>restricted to the drum (worn), shoe/lining (worn lining, worn adjuster
>pin, wrong parts), adjuster snail (worn, wrong part(insufficient
>lift)), backplate (loose/out-of-position fixed pivot pin).
>
>I would expect a correct and unworn adjuster to cope with fully worn
>linings and a drum worn to the reclamation limit.
>
right then - sounds like I may need to buy a new drum too :(

It does look pretty old and is fairly flakey round the edges so its
not too surprising.

I did have really good brakes for a while - which must have been when
i last put new shoes on the rear..

 
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 21:07:33 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Pads? you mean shoes?
>
></pendant>

yeah yeah :p

>check the drums for wear. I had similar problems on an old SII - one drum
>would only work properly with near-new shoes, 'til I replaced it.

Richard - price check in aisle 1! drums for series SWB rear axle...
 
Austin Shackles wrote:

> On or around Thu, 21 Sep 2006 20:49:24 +0100, Tom Woods
> <[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 18:37:22 +1000, Duracell Bunny
>><[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Lots of things can wear there, could be a cumulative effect. The snail
>>>cam can wear, the pin on the shoe, the drum itself ... I've seen one easy
>>>fix, slip a little bit of brake tube over the brake shoe pin will give
>>>you another 1mm of adjustment, for example.
>>>
>>>Can you turn the adjuster full circle (ie > 360°), albeit only one way?
>>>
>>>Needs investigation at the very least, of course. No brakes is not
>>>acceptable as you point out!
>>
>>ive had the drum off and watched the adjuster turning round. it will
>>go all the way (until it hits the flat when turning one way). The
>>snail cam doesnt look that worn.
>>
>>Like i said - the pads are probably less than half worn.
>>
>
> Pads? you mean shoes?
>
> </pendant>
>
Do you mean "pedant" - while we are being pedantic?
JD

 

"Dougal" <DougalAThiskennel.free-online.co.uk> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom Woods wrote:
>
> > any wear limits in mine are now more like rusty lumps. any idea what
> > they should say?
> > Id have thought that there would be an obvious lip if it was very worn
> > or do they not tend to go like that?
>
> 10 inch drum - max 0.030 inch (0.75 mm) oversize with standard linings
> is the LR recommendation.
>
> There's the possibility that someone may have machined it out already
> hence the lack of a too obvious lip.
>
> If the drum will not lock with the adjuster there are limited
> possibilities most of which have already been mentioned but are
> restricted to the drum (worn), shoe/lining (worn lining, worn adjuster
> pin, wrong parts), adjuster snail (worn, wrong part(insufficient
> lift)), backplate (loose/out-of-position fixed pivot pin).

I've found a common fault to be a hamfisted adjustment with the snail cam
having been forced against the pin on the front shoe and consequently
bending the pin away from the cam therefore losing adjustment that way. Jack
up and turn wheel whilst moving adjuster until some binding can be felt then
back off adjuster slightly until wheel turns freely, do not turn adjuster up
hard. It might seem a silly question but you *do* have the front shoes on
the right side with the springs behind the adjuster cams, they are handed. I
have also known the adjuster spindle to turn without moving the snail cam,
sometimes hard to spot.

Martin

>
> I would expect a correct and unworn adjuster to cope with fully worn
> linings and a drum worn to the reclamation limit.
>
>
>


 
On or around Fri, 22 Sep 2006 06:42:38 +1000, JD <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>Austin Shackles wrote:
>
>>
>> </pendant>
>>
>Do you mean "pedant" - while we are being pedantic?
>JD

it's a bit of shed-lore that escpaed.

the normal drill is for someone to say "pendant" about something, someone
else to repsond "anglepoise", and then a further person to post "inspection,
with naff blub".

I guess you had to be there.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On or around Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:12:15 +0100, "Oily"
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

> I
>have also known the adjuster spindle to turn without moving the snail cam,
>sometimes hard to spot.
>

I had that on the back of the 110, cam fell off the spindle. Made it a new
cam and tack-welded it on.
--
Austin Shackles. www.ddol-las.net my opinions are just that
Satisfying: Satisfy your inner child by eating ten tubes of Smarties
from the Little Book of Complete B***ocks by Alistair Beaton.
 
On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:12:15 +0100, "Oily"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>I've found a common fault to be a hamfisted adjustment

are you calling me hamfisted! :p

> with the snail cam
>having been forced against the pin on the front shoe and consequently
>bending the pin away from the cam therefore losing adjustment that way. Jack
>up and turn wheel whilst moving adjuster until some binding can be felt then
>back off adjuster slightly until wheel turns freely, do not turn adjuster up
>hard. It might seem a silly question but you *do* have the front shoes on
>the right side with the springs behind the adjuster cams, they are handed. I
>have also known the adjuster spindle to turn without moving the snail cam,
>sometimes hard to spot.

I've not checked if the pin is bent. it was turning and pushing the
shoe out - obviously not enough to bind on the drum though

spring does go from the front shoe behind the adjuster.

 

"Tom Woods" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 22:12:15 +0100, "Oily"
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >I've found a common fault to be a hamfisted adjustment
>
> are you calling me hamfisted! :p
>

No, it might have been done before you got it. ;-) Probably just a worn
drum then.

Martin

> > with the snail cam
> >having been forced against the pin on the front shoe and consequently
> >bending the pin away from the cam therefore losing adjustment that way.
Jack
> >up and turn wheel whilst moving adjuster until some binding can be felt
then
> >back off adjuster slightly until wheel turns freely, do not turn adjuster
up
> >hard. It might seem a silly question but you *do* have the front shoes on
> >the right side with the springs behind the adjuster cams, they are
handed. I
> >have also known the adjuster spindle to turn without moving the snail
cam,
> >sometimes hard to spot.
>
> I've not checked if the pin is bent. it was turning and pushing the
> shoe out - obviously not enough to bind on the drum though
>
> spring does go from the front shoe behind the adjuster.
>


 
>
>The adjusters on my back axle dont seem to do anything - even on full
>adjust the hub can still spin freely. I was under the impression that
>i should be able to adjust it up and lock the hub fully up before
>turning it down a few clicks.
>The adjuster is turning and moving the leading pad a bit and the
>inside snail isnt overly worn (i replaced the adjuster 5ish years
>ago).
>The brake pads are less than half worn.
>
>Does this imply that the drum itself is worn? or is there some other
>possible explanation?

I am convinced it is a sinister plot by the manufacturers of
replacement drums/shoes to sell more by making it impossible to adjust
the brakes up once the shoes are slightly worn. Certainly it doesn't
take much slack in each drum to provide a lot of pedal travel.
Especially on the SWB where there is only one adjuster on each drum
(who thought that one up? just because the trailing shoe *should* self
adjust doesn't mean it will...) Fitment of LWB 11" brakes to the front
of SWB's not only improves the braking considerably but makes it
easier to adjust. But you need to fit a LWB master cylinder as well,
otherwise there's too much pedal travel anyway due to having twin
cylinders on the front. (i have found......) Whilst you're about it,
if you can get hold of a set of back brakes, the 11" rear drums have
two adjusters, rather than the one on a SWB.

The best method of eliminating this slack in the drum is to fit a
steel sleeve over the pin on the shoe which the adjuster cam sits on.
This moves the shoe further away, thus getting much better results
with the adjusters. The ideal adjustment with new shoes and drums
should be about 3-4 clicks on the adjuster to bring the shoes gently
into contact with the drum. Best adjustment is to notch it up untill
you can feel the shoe dragging as you turn the drum, and then back off
one notch.

Alex
 
On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:08:40 +0100, Alex <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I am convinced it is a sinister plot by the manufacturers of
>replacement drums/shoes to sell more by making it impossible to adjust
>the brakes up once the shoes are slightly worn. Certainly it doesn't
>take much slack in each drum to provide a lot of pedal travel.
>Especially on the SWB where there is only one adjuster on each drum
>(who thought that one up? just because the trailing shoe *should* self
>adjust doesn't mean it will...) Fitment of LWB 11" brakes to the front
>of SWB's not only improves the braking considerably but makes it
>easier to adjust. But you need to fit a LWB master cylinder as well,
>otherwise there's too much pedal travel anyway due to having twin
>cylinders on the front. (i have found......) Whilst you're about it,
>if you can get hold of a set of back brakes, the 11" rear drums have
>two adjusters, rather than the one on a SWB.

done the front brakes! got LWB fronts with a LWB master cylinder and
servo.
still got standard rears. when they worked the brakes were great!
(with quite a lot of front bias!)
>
>The best method of eliminating this slack in the drum is to fit a
>steel sleeve over the pin on the shoe which the adjuster cam sits on.
>This moves the shoe further away, thus getting much better results
>with the adjusters. The ideal adjustment with new shoes and drums
>should be about 3-4 clicks on the adjuster to bring the shoes gently
>into contact with the drum. Best adjustment is to notch it up untill
>you can feel the shoe dragging as you turn the drum, and then back off
>one notch.

i will probably try enlarging the pin before i go out and buy drums.

 
Tom Woods wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 00:08:40 +0100, Alex <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>>I am convinced it is a sinister plot by the manufacturers of
>>replacement drums/shoes to sell more by making it impossible to adjust
>>the brakes up once the shoes are slightly worn. Certainly it doesn't
>>take much slack in each drum to provide a lot of pedal travel.
>>Especially on the SWB where there is only one adjuster on each drum
>>(who thought that one up? just because the trailing shoe *should* self
>>adjust doesn't mean it will...) Fitment of LWB 11" brakes to the front
>>of SWB's not only improves the braking considerably but makes it
>>easier to adjust. But you need to fit a LWB master cylinder as well,
>>otherwise there's too much pedal travel anyway due to having twin
>>cylinders on the front. (i have found......) Whilst you're about it,
>>if you can get hold of a set of back brakes, the 11" rear drums have
>>two adjusters, rather than the one on a SWB.
>
>
> done the front brakes! got LWB fronts with a LWB master cylinder and
> servo.
> still got standard rears. when they worked the brakes were great!
> (with quite a lot of front bias!)
>
>>The best method of eliminating this slack in the drum is to fit a
>>steel sleeve over the pin on the shoe which the adjuster cam sits on.
>>This moves the shoe further away, thus getting much better results
>>with the adjusters. The ideal adjustment with new shoes and drums
>>should be about 3-4 clicks on the adjuster to bring the shoes gently
>>into contact with the drum. Best adjustment is to notch it up untill
>>you can feel the shoe dragging as you turn the drum, and then back off
>>one notch.
>
>
> i will probably try enlarging the pin before i go out and buy drums.
>
A bit of Bundy pipe will do the trick nicely, if you have the larger
sizes around.
 
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