Lethal tyres on my SWB - any ideas?

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A

Alex

Guest
I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.

However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
lifting one wheel rather than slide.

Anybody else have this problem with Kinpin remoulds? Anything I've
missed on the rear suspension that could cause it?

I had planned to buy another pair of SAG's for the back at some time
in the near future, but right now I can't afford it. I thought about
swapping fronts/rears, but I hate to think what would happen if I had
the front end lose it instead.

Alex
 
Alex wrote:

> I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
> 7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
> round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.
>
> However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
> it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
> causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
> you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
> lifting one wheel rather than slide.
>
> Anybody else have this problem with Kinpin remoulds? Anything I've
> missed on the rear suspension that could cause it?
>
> I had planned to buy another pair of SAG's for the back at some time
> in the near future, but right now I can't afford it. I thought about
> swapping fronts/rears, but I hate to think what would happen if I had
> the front end lose it instead.
>
> Alex

Simplest thing is probably to try what you suggest - swap front and back.
While I am not familiar with the tyre types, front end letting go is less
likely to kill you than back letting go - under braking at least you tend
to keep in a straight line, and under acceleration the rear wheels only
will be driven most of the time, so if the SAGs are gripping better you
will be better off.

This is the sort of problem you can expect with different tyres front and
rear, and is why it is generally considered preferable to have the same
front and back.
JD
 
On or around Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:48:54 GMT, Alex <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
>7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
>round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.
>
>However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
>it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
>causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
>you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
>lifting one wheel rather than slide.

flog 'em and get some decent radials.

seriously though, you have agressive off-road treads, they're likely to be
iffy on road in the wet. If you don't do a lot of off-road in sticky mud,
you've probably got the wrong tyres on it.

a good set of radial MT pattern would be better, perhaps, but even so,
they're 80% off-road typically and so the on-road performance is sacrificed

FWIW, sister's boyfriend runs his Rangie on Pirelli STs (80% ON-road), and
claims not to have got it stuck on the farm yet.

On my 110, I found Nankang wide conquerors were quite good. Pirelli AT grip
like toffee on a blanket on road, but aren't really very good in mud. The
Nankangs are both cheaper and have a slightly more open tread pattern, but
are slightly less confidence-inspiring on wet tarmac.

 

"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
> 7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
> round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.
>
> However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
> it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
> causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
> you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
> lifting one wheel rather than slide.
>
> Anybody else have this problem with Kinpin remoulds? Anything I've
> missed on the rear suspension that could cause it?
>
> I had planned to buy another pair of SAG's for the back at some time
> in the near future, but right now I can't afford it. I thought about
> swapping fronts/rears, but I hate to think what would happen if I had
> the front end lose it instead.
>
> Alex

Try putting the SAGs on the bag just in case this helps but realistically
neither of these tyres are going to do that well on a wet road at any
speed!!
Best bet would be to switch to radial tyres - the crossplies have a
tendancy to 'tuck under' when cornering. Radials are less prone to this as
the softer sidewalls allow for the tyre wall to bulge out keeping the whole
tread on the road rather than just the one edge.

If you go for a decent quality MT ( eg. BFG, GoodYear ) then they will
handle offroad as you would expect your SAGs to and would more than cope
with the road speeds of a LR.
If on road handling is your priority move away from mud tyres altogether -
and start to look at your suspension - rusted up leaves don't lend
themselves to giving any tyre a fighting chance!

David
LLAMA 4x4
www.llama4x4.co.uk


 
We used to have some firestone SAT's on a series II and they were lethal on
a wet road. Once on a roundabout at normal speed in town I ended up facing
the wrong way, thank God we never hit anyone. On a series III we used to
have we had Avon Rangers which were better but not great, then we changed
for BFG All Terrain T/A which are superb. We also have them on a V8 90 now
for road use but change the wheels over to mud terrains to go off roading.
Even so, they are still slippery on a wet road. Its all a compromise and you
have to drive within the limits of the tyre.
Richard


"Alex" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
> 7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
> round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.
>
> However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
> it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
> causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
> you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
> lifting one wheel rather than slide.
>
> Anybody else have this problem with Kinpin remoulds? Anything I've
> missed on the rear suspension that could cause it?
>
> I had planned to buy another pair of SAG's for the back at some time
> in the near future, but right now I can't afford it. I thought about
> swapping fronts/rears, but I hate to think what would happen if I had
> the front end lose it instead.
>
> Alex


 
in article [email protected], Austin Shackles at
[email protected] wrote on 13/10/04 7:34:

> On or around Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:48:54 GMT, Alex <[email protected]>
> enlightened us thusly:
>
>> I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
>> 7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
>> round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.
>>
>> However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
>> it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
>> causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
>> you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
>> lifting one wheel rather than slide.
>
> flog 'em and get some decent radials.
>
> seriously though, you have agressive off-road treads, they're likely to be
> iffy on road in the wet. If you don't do a lot of off-road in sticky mud,
> you've probably got the wrong tyres on it.
>
> a good set of radial MT pattern would be better, perhaps, but even so,
> they're 80% off-road typically and so the on-road performance is sacrificed
>
> FWIW, sister's boyfriend runs his Rangie on Pirelli STs (80% ON-road), and
> claims not to have got it stuck on the farm yet.
>
> On my 110, I found Nankang wide conquerors were quite good. Pirelli AT grip
> like toffee on a blanket on road, but aren't really very good in mud. The
> Nankangs are both cheaper and have a slightly more open tread pattern, but
> are slightly less confidence-inspiring on wet tarmac.
>


I have the Nankang Wide Conquerors on my 109 Srs One and have failed to get
stuck anywhere cept once when a tree jammed itself under the chassie. Good
tyers and cheepish too with acceptable road manners at top speed (55mph!!!).

 
In message <[email protected]>, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> writes
>flog 'em and get some decent radials.

My 110 came with some far-eastern cross-ply tyres labelled in
hieroglyphics. After the machine has been standing for some time they
assume a nice flat-spot where they touch the road. So we bounce along
bump bump bump bump for about the first quarter mile. This helps shake
off the surface rust and the leaves, but the spiders hang on fine.

On roundabouts in the wet it's a question of really slowing right down
and just ignoring the other drivers astern. I just thought this was a
feature of 110's in the rain. It can be really wild at the point where
the camber of the road changes suddenly.

But if I did save up and buy radials, would I be able to move the
steering wheel? Would I need to invest in power steering or a Charles
Atlas course?
--
Bill Holt
 
On or around Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:45:38 +0100, Bill Holt
<[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:

>On roundabouts in the wet it's a question of really slowing right down
>and just ignoring the other drivers astern. I just thought this was a
>feature of 110's in the rain. It can be really wild at the point where
>the camber of the road changes suddenly.

The 110 on suitable radials, while it doesn't handle exactly like a sports
car, will embarrass many ordinary saloons. as will a range rover or disco,
and no surprise really, similar suspension, although the 110 is a bit
stiffer and has less body roll as a result.

>But if I did save up and buy radials, would I be able to move the
>steering wheel? Would I need to invest in power steering or a Charles
>Atlas course?

wouldn't think so. You could fit PAS, of course :)

 
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 14:30:24 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Wed, 13 Oct 2004 13:45:38 +0100, Bill Holt
><[email protected]> enlightened us thusly:
>
>>On roundabouts in the wet it's a question of really slowing right down
>>and just ignoring the other drivers astern. I just thought this was a
>>feature of 110's in the rain. It can be really wild at the point where
>>the camber of the road changes suddenly.
>
>The 110 on suitable radials, while it doesn't handle exactly like a sports
>car, will embarrass many ordinary saloons. as will a range rover or disco,
>and no surprise really, similar suspension, although the 110 is a bit
>stiffer and has less body roll as a result.
>
>>But if I did save up and buy radials, would I be able to move the
>>steering wheel? Would I need to invest in power steering or a Charles
>>Atlas course?
>
>wouldn't think so. You could fit PAS, of course :)

Fitting Trac Edges over Kingpins and having the swivels reshimmed made
a massive difference to my Series 2. I'd say the steering was no
heavier either at rest or moving, but cornering is a far less
approximate affair!
--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'03 Volvo V70

My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk
Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com
Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com
 
So Bill Holt was, like

> > But if I did save up and buy radials, would I be able to move the
> steering wheel?

Yes. I changed from 205 cross-plies to 235/85 radials on the S2a, and I can
still steer it fine. No power steering or Charles Atlas involvement.

Mind you, I am incredibly butch <cough> ;-)


--

Rich

Series 2a
RR 4.6
V8 trialler
dog, wife, kids, whatever


 
are you entirely sure you have radials all round .
it sounds to me like you have KINGPIN radials and SAG are possibly crossply?
, if so no wonder they skid all over place and totally illegal to use that way
..
 
On 13 Oct 2004 18:24:48 GMT, [email protected] (M0bcg) wrote:

>are you entirely sure you have radials all round .
> it sounds to me like you have KINGPIN radials and SAG are possibly crossply?
>, if so no wonder they skid all over place and totally illegal to use that way
>.
> .
> you should have same tyres all round .
>
>i use 7.50x16 kingpin mudtrack on my defender and i can pretty much throw it
>around all over the place without losing traction .
>

Even if you are right about the Kingpin's being radial, there is
nothing illegal about it.

Quoting from Dunlop website (although there are many other references
out there to corroborate it)

"Tyres of different types must not be fitted to opposite wheels of the
vehicle (for example, radial-ply tyres must not be fitted to a wheel
on the same axle as wheels already fitted with cross-ply tyres and
vice versa, and a two-axle vehicle with single rear wheels must not
have radial ply tyres on the front axle if cross ply tyres are fitted
to the rear axle). "


--

Tim Hobbs

'58 Series 2 88" aka "Stig"
'77 101FC Ambulance aka "Burrt"
'03 Volvo V70

My Landies? http://www.seriesii.co.uk
Barcoding? http://www.bartec-systems.com
Tony Luckwill web archive at http://www.luckwill.com
 
I had no-name-special remoulds on the rear of my RRC and Michelin
M-something-or-other on the front and managed to spin it through 360 deg
one wet day. Very entertaining . . . . . in hindsight, especially as I
gracefully negotiated a right bend and oncoming traffic whilst executing
said pirouette.

I quickly bought another pair of Michelins and a replacement for the
wheel that stopped the girations by smashing into the curb.

All this started at sub 30mph

Richard
 
On 13 Oct 2004 18:24:48 GMT, [email protected] (M0bcg) wrote:

>are you entirely sure you have radials all round .
> it sounds to me like you have KINGPIN radials and SAG are possibly crossply?
>, if so no wonder they skid all over place and totally illegal to use that way
>.
> .
> you should have same tyres all round .
>

They're X-plys all round.

Alex
 
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 21:18:34 +0100, Tim Hobbs
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On 13 Oct 2004 18:24:48 GMT, [email protected] (M0bcg) wrote:
>
>>are you entirely sure you have radials all round .
>> it sounds to me like you have KINGPIN radials and SAG are possibly crossply?
>>, if so no wonder they skid all over place and totally illegal to use that way
>>.
>> .
>> you should have same tyres all round .
>>
>>i use 7.50x16 kingpin mudtrack on my defender and i can pretty much throw it
>>around all over the place without losing traction .
>>
>
>Even if you are right about the Kingpin's being radial, there is
>nothing illegal about it.
>

It is illegal to fit X-plys on the rear and radials on the front, it
must be the other way round.

Alex
 
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 07:34:41 +0100, Austin Shackles
<[email protected]> wrote:

>On or around Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:48:54 GMT, Alex <[email protected]>
>enlightened us thusly:
>
>>I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
>>7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
>>round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.
>>
>>However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
>>it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
>>causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
>>you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
>>lifting one wheel rather than slide.
>
>flog 'em and get some decent radials.
>
>seriously though, you have agressive off-road treads, they're likely to be
>iffy on road in the wet. If you don't do a lot of off-road in sticky mud,
>you've probably got the wrong tyres on it.
>

Which is why I am puzzled. The SAG's on the front are a off-road tyre,
while the Kinpins are a road-bias tyre. Theyre much the same as the
old Avon Rangemasters that used to be OEM on Series landrovers.

I'd expect the off-road tyres to lose grip rather than the road-bais
tyre, but it's the back that loses it, despite being a road tyre.

Alex
 
On Wed, 13 Oct 2004 09:27:14 +0100, Mr.Nice.
<[email protected]> wrote:

>Twas Tue, 12 Oct 2004 22:48:54 GMT when Alex
><[email protected]> put finger to keyboard producing:
>
>>I have a SWB Series IIa running 7.50 Kingpin remoulds on the back,
>>7.50 General SAGs on the front. Tyre pressures at about 28-30 all
>>round, plenty of tread left on the Kingpins.
>>
>>However, in the wet it has a lethal tendancy for the back end to lose
>>it on bends. Roundabouts in particular, the slightest provocation
>>causes the back end to step out of line. In the dry, not a problem,
>>you have to slam it round corners to get the back to shift, often
>>lifting one wheel rather than slide.
>>
>
>I have these on my 110
>http://members.lycos.co.uk/markvarley/IMAGES/landrover/P1273213a.jpg
>they are cross plies and they are very good off-road in the mud, but
>on a wet road that back end comes out very easily, I simply drive as
>appropriate but I will be replacing them with michelin XZY's if I can
>afford it when the time comes, I'm a big fan of XZY (random google for
>michelin XZY - http://www.1010tires.com/Michelin_XZY_tires.html ).

What are they? They look like a SAT/SAG pattern tyre? They look
suspiciously like a tyre my mate has on his IIa, some odd chinese
make, marked "Security"

Alex
 
Alex wrote:

> What are they? They look like a SAT/SAG pattern tyre? They look
> suspiciously like a tyre my mate has on his IIa, some odd chinese
> make, marked "Security"

The Security branded tyres on my Hilux carry an E4 marking which implies
they originate in the Netherlands.

--
EMB
change two to the number to reply
 
On or around Wed, 13 Oct 2004 23:36:54 GMT, Alex <[email protected]>
enlightened us thusly:

>On 13 Oct 2004 18:24:48 GMT, [email protected] (M0bcg) wrote:
>
>>are you entirely sure you have radials all round .
>> it sounds to me like you have KINGPIN radials and SAG are possibly crossply?
>>, if so no wonder they skid all over place and totally illegal to use that way
>>.
>> .
>> you should have same tyres all round .
>>
>
>They're X-plys all round.

the 110 on Colway radial AT remoulds handled nicely. But I still rate the
Nankang Wide Conqueror as a good compromise all-round tyre, for reasonable
money. set of 4 in 31x10.5R15 size came to about 250 quid fitted -
235/85R16 are about the same price.
 
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