Defender 90 200TDi Trasmission Issues

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Roaming Wombat

Roaming Wombat

Well-Known Member
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Fortress Europa
First time out in my 90 200Tdi and after a few hours of running I started getting some clunk and grind noises from the transmission and felt like it was coming from below the seats (this is pretty vague - better details are below), needless to say I got myself recovered home (lack of tools, daylight, energy...)

After some research, investigated the problem today;

With the rear prop shaft removed and diff lock disengaged (right and back) there was no drive at the front wheels
With diff lock engaged (left back) there was drive at the front wheels.
My reckoning is this means the front diff is mush.

With the front prop shaft removed and diff lock disengaged (right and back) there was drive at the rear wheels.
With the diff lock engaged (left an back) there was drive at the rear wheels.
My reckoning from this is the rear diff is OK.

During this it was also noticed that there was some funny behaviour in the transfer box,
It was noticed the propshafts were attempting to turn with the gear stick in neutral...

Some further investigation revealed the following This was repeatable everytime:
  1. Start engine with gear in neutral - nothing unusual happens
  2. Put into gear (1st) and engage drive (lift clutch slightly) and disengage drive again - again nothing unusual happens.
  3. Put back into neutral and lift clutch - the propshafts start to (try) turn (very slowly), this is accompanied by judders and noises
  4. Engage diff lock (left and back), still in neutral, the propshaft movement stops
  5. Disengage diff lock and the movement remains stopped.

Any ideas?
 
Yes, you'd expect the car to only move in difflock if the rear propshaft is removed. That is all fine and dandy and doesn't mean anything's wrong. Do you have any other symptoms of trouble in the front axle?

Yes, you often get a bit of residual movement coming through the gearbox with the lever in neutral. Our Series box used to do this. Ordinarily, it's not transmitting much torque and can easily be stopped by means of a little friction on the handbrake drum - try to resist the temptation to use your fingers! Yes, anything that adds a little random noise to the process, like putting it in and out of difflock may make difference to this. So it doesn't sound like anything's too unusual. Your gearbox might indeed be rough, but from what you describe, it's not doing anything unusual. If there's some serious torque getting through when it's supposed to be in neutral (enough to make the sole of a Wellington boot smoke when applied to the handbrake drum) then you've got a problem.
 
I'll get the wheels jacked up to check the diffs further.

What would you define as 'rough' in the gear box?, as at the moment the noises being made are pretty severe in sound, as though something is slipping.

The best I can describe it is as I pull off, or during a crawl there's a constant "ger-dunk"ing noise making the whole vehicle shudder, enough so that people in car park look around concerned and make *the face*.

Things that spring to mind are oil levels or something somewhere has turned to mush or in the process of doing so?

I'll try to get a video of it tomorrow
 
if you are wondering as to the condition of the gear/transfer boxes why not drain into clean containers & check for particles / bits / chunks? if it's a 200tdi does that mean Lt77 box & Lt230?? transfer? the Lt77 has a main case drain with a magnet? & an oil filter that can be removed to drain (ATF as oil?) & the Lt230 has a 'bolt' as drain so the (EP90 oil?) can be drained..

obviously if loads of lumps fall out instead of oil then that should give an idea o_O but even the colour / texture can give ideas as to the internal condition.

something like that anyway:)

Rich.
 
With the front prop shaft removed and diff lock disengaged (right and back) there was drive at the rear wheels.

That shouldn't happen, whenever you remove a prop (or snap a half shaft) you will loose all drive unless you have diff lock in (or have the hand brake on with the rear prop off - but that's a side effect of how the centre diff works and not to be used for normal driving). When you say 'drive' do you actually mean you can drive along the road or just that the wheels turn while jacked up? Internal stiction from the gearbox oil can result in wheels turning while jacked but you wont get any drive on the road.
 
Last edited:
With the clunking noise you mentioned in the car park, is there any rhythm to it? Does it happen where you can anticipate the noise? For example if you were crawling in 1st high range at tick over does it happen every 5 seconds or is the clunking random?

Does it do it in a straight line? When cornering? Or both?
Could it just be backlash in the transmission? Worn uj's?

With the judder how bad is it? Does the whole vehicle shake and bounce? Is it clutch judder? How high is the bite point on the clutch pedal? What condition are the gearbox rubber mounts in?

Also you say with the front prop removed and no difflock the rear wheels turned. Power should've been sent to the front. Were you definitely out of difflock? The lever may have been to the right but was the light off?

Hope that provides a few more options and is somewhat useful
 
Kwakerman said:
With the front prop shaft removed and diff lock disengaged (right and back) there was drive at the rear wheels.

That shouldn't happen, whenever you remove a prop (or snap a half shaft) you will loose all drive unless you have diff lock in (or have the hand brake on with the rear prop off - but that's a side effect of how the centre diff works and not to be used for normal driving). When you say 'drive' do you actually mean you can drive along the road or just that the wheels turn while jacked up? Internal stiction from the gearbox oil can result in wheels turning while jacked but you wont get any drive on the road.
Click to expand...

Well it went forward down the drive and back up it in reverse with the diff lock off (back and right)... I will reconfirm this though

109inches said:
With the clunking noise you mentioned in the car park, is there any rhythm to it? Does it happen where you can anticipate the noise? For example if you were crawling in 1st high range at tick over does it happen every 5 seconds or is the clunking random?

Does it do it in a straight line? When cornering? Or both?
Could it just be backlash in the transmission? Worn uj's?

With the judder how bad is it? Does the whole vehicle shake and bounce? Is it clutch judder? How high is the bite point on the clutch pedal? What condition are the gearbox rubber mounts in?

Also you say with the front prop removed and no difflock the rear wheels turned. Power should've been sent to the front. Were you definitely out of difflock? The lever may have been to the right but was the light off?

Hope that provides a few more options and is somewhat useful
Click to expand...

Happens in straight line and turning (had a trundle round the car park at the time) as I sped up the frequency increased.

The whole vehicle judders, the biting point on the clutch is quite low

I used a repeat of the method used with the rear prop shaft removed, where it was quite clear the diff lock was engaging/dis-engaging so I don't think its a stick diff lock. Diff lock light appears to be non-functional... possibly fuse/bulb but I haven't had any kind of look at the electrics on the vehicle yet (its on the job list)


Unfortunately wasn't able to get a video today owing to laid up ill, will try again tomorrow
 
Don't forget that diff lock doesn't always disengage when you just move the lever to the right as the diff lock sleeve is spring loaded inside the T/box It may actually take several yards of driving for the lock to disengage. I would sort out the light as that gives the correct indication of the physical status of the diff lock rather than just relying on the lever position.
 
Rear prop off, rear wheels chocked, lift fronts off ground and engage diff lock and listen whilst you put it in gear and transfer power to the front axle - as suggested above sounds like a CV joint. Have a really good look at the joints in the propshaft too, a little movement can make a lot of noise under power.
 
Have finally diagnosed the problem! :)

Jacked a front wheel up, with no front propshaft on, and t'wheel turned no problem without much effort or any 'orrible noises

Jacked a rear wheel up, with propshaft on - so neutral difflock disengaged - wheel turned without much effort but with an 'orrible rhythmic clunking noise.
Jacked the other rear up (with the other on the ground) and same result when turning the wheel.
The noise is pretty much a match for what I was hearing originally so hopefully new diff will solve it and it isn't a t/f box issue as well.

Now to learn how to change a diff...:rolleyes:
 
When we took apart the diff on our old Series many years ago it turned out that the bolts holding the crown wheel onto the diff mechanism had liberated themselves and were coming out. The heads were wearing away on the inside of the diff casing. So it could be something simple like that. I'd get the old one apart and see what's needed first, before spending any money.
 
IamRobbie said:
I can imagine that sounds nice when driving. At least it ain't the transfer box tho!
Click to expand...

Removed the half shafts and propshaft for driving about with it, one reason was because 'orrible racket :rolleyes:, second was to assess the rest of the transmission and make sure it isn't the t/f box as well, managed to confirm the jittery/clunky take up when applying power is due to the play in the front diff (determined it was diff end when I was putting the front propshaft on)... so that's going to get replaced soon too...
 
Roaming Wombat said:
With the rear prop shaft removed and diff lock disengaged (right and back) there was no drive at the front wheels
With diff lock engaged (left back) there was drive at the front wheels.
My reckoning is this means the front diff is mush.
Click to expand...

Of course there would not be drive to the front axle, its a differential. The diff lock does not lock the axle diff, but the transfer diff. I'm sure you would have noticed that the rear flange was turning, front prop wasn't. How could this mean the front diff is gone?
 
When a diff or half shaft is gone if you take it out of diff lock and lift the clutch the transfer box will send power to the prop with least resistance so if it turns the rear prop the issue is at the rear. With diff lock on the transfer box it turns both props so the end that still works will drive you in two wheel drive.
 
IamRobbie said:
When a diff or half shaft is gone if you take it out of diff lock and lift the clutch the transfer box will send power to the prop with least resistance so if it turns the rear prop the issue is at the rear. With diff lock on the transfer box it turns both props so the end that still works will drive you in two wheel drive.
Click to expand...
Yes, that i see. But, he's saying he took the rear prop OFF, so the transfer will, of course, send power to the flange, Not the front prop. Only, when he put diff lock on. And from this he gathered that the front diff was gone?
 
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